The vast range of Greys between Black and White

[Mike Waters]

I am thinking of the range between the extremes of ‘disbelief’ and ‘faith’.

On the side of disbelief you have the range between those who are proactive atheists, through to those who, whilst not being ‘anti’, simply have never given a single thought to involving in any form of religion.

On the side of faith you have those who choose to ‘go to church’ on the occasional Sundays, and that’s it, through to those who devote every minute of their lives trying to deepen and expand their faith.

So what might be the ultimate ‘after life’ destiny of each person within that vast range?

1) Will that 'destiny' likewise range from being eternally tormented day and night in hell fire, through to spending an eternal life of utmost ‘paradise’ (to coin the word) in the presence of God?

If so, then where might the crossover point lay in the range from proactive atheistic disbelief, through to total devotion of Faith, ?

Or

2) Will the whole thing be resolved in an ‘Ultimate Reconciliation’?

Or

3) Will there be another ‘range’ between ‘1’ and ‘2’?

 

[Invisibilis]

Revelation 3:15-16 I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other! 16. So because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to vomit you out of My mouth!

 

[Mike Waters]

Revelation 3:15-16 I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other! 16. So because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to vomit you out of My mouth!

Did a genuine range of questions really deserve such a response?
Or was it not me that you were reckoning to be lukewarm?

 

[mjrhealth]

@Mike Waters I would never be one to try out think God, but His love for man is greater than some could ever imagine. There will be many with all there studied will get a rude shock when they think they will get a huge pat on the back only to barely scrape in, whilst there will be many who are struggling whom Christ will throw His arms around., telling them they should never need worry, there salvation was always secure. So i guess its wait and see.

 

[Willie T]

I feel that to live for only the Black or the White of life, is to largely miss God. It is also my opinion that many of us totally misunderstand the "lukewarm" words. (Why in the world would God ever prefer us to be Cold in our understanding or delivery of His Word?)

 

[Episkopos]

I am thinking of the range between the extremes of ‘disbelief’ and ‘faith’.

On the side of disbelief you have the range between those who are proactive atheists through to those who, whilst not being ‘anti’, simply have never given a single thought to involving in any form of religion.

On the side of faith you have those who have those who choose to ‘go to church’ on the occasional Sundays, and that’s it, through to those who devote every minute of their lives trying to deepen and expand their faith.

So what might be the ultimate ‘after life’ destiny of each person within that vast range?

1) Will that likewise range from being eternally tormented day and night in hell fire, through to spending an eternal life of utmost ‘paradise’ (to coin the word) in the presence of God?

If so, then where might the crossover point lay in the range from proactive atheistic disbelief, through to total devotion of Faith, ?

Or

2) Will the whole thing be resolved in an ‘Ultimate Reconciliation’?

Or

3) Will there be another ‘range’ between ‘1’ and ‘2’?

Well, we are not going to be judged by our beliefs...but by our works. Some people who say they disbelieve will fare better than they who say they do.

If we can still listen to the words of Jesus and the parable of the 2 sons.

Matthew 21:28-32
The Parable of the Two Sons
28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’

29 “‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.

31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?”

“The first,” they answered.

 

[Invisibilis]

Did a genuine range of questions really deserve such a response?
Or was it not me that you were reckoning to be lukewarm?

I was responding to the range, the majority, between 1 and 2, the greys.

The turning point between the two is usually when one is sick and tired of being sick and tired of themselves. A point of ego-deflation at depth. Where a person is willing to go to any length to no longer trust their 'self'. To let go, and let God.

 

[DPMartin]

I am thinking of the range between the extremes of ‘disbelief’ and ‘faith’.

On the side of disbelief you have the range between those who are proactive atheists through to those who, whilst not being ‘anti’, simply have never given a single thought to involving in any form of religion.

On the side of faith you have those who have those who choose to ‘go to church’ on the occasional Sundays, and that’s it, through to those who devote every minute of their lives trying to deepen and expand their faith.

So what might be the ultimate ‘after life’ destiny of each person within that vast range?

1) Will that likewise range from being eternally tormented day and night in hell fire, through to spending an eternal life of utmost ‘paradise’ (to coin the word) in the presence of God?

If so, then where might the crossover point lay in the range from proactive atheistic disbelief, through to total devotion of Faith, ?

Or

2) Will the whole thing be resolved in an ‘Ultimate Reconciliation’?

Or

3) Will there be another ‘range’ between ‘1’ and ‘2’?

not that complicated there is those who are called and then chosen and then faithful. and the rest in the biblical context. everything else (gray area) is self justification for not being "the called and then the chosen and then faith". so one walks in the Light or in darkness there's no betweeners. from the Lord God's view, there is the faithful, and there's not. and that is the reality.

 

[Mike Waters]

not that complicated there is those who are called and then chosen and then faithful. and the rest in the biblical context. everything else (gray area) is self justification for not being "the called and then the chosen and then faith". so one walks in the Light or in darkness there's no betweeners. from the Lord God's view, there is the faithful, and there's not. and that is the reality.

And what about those, past, present, and future who. for various reasons (geographic isolation, premature death, mental incapacity etc.,) never get to see a Bible or otherwise never get to hear the Gospel Message?
Where do you place them in your 'only black or white' contention?

 

[Base12]

And what about those, past, present, and future who. for various reasons (geographic isolation, premature death, mental incapacity etc.,) never get to see a Bible or otherwise never get to hear the Gospel Message?
Where do you place them in your 'only black or white' contention?

While we wait for DPMartin's answer, I will reveal mine...

Choice #2 (Will the whole thing be resolved in an ‘Ultimate Reconciliation’?)

 

[historyb]

I am thinking of the range between the extremes of ‘disbelief’ and ‘faith’.

On the side of disbelief you have the range between those who are proactive atheists through to those who, whilst not being ‘anti’, simply have never given a single thought to involving in any form of religion.

On the side of faith you have those who have those who choose to ‘go to church’ on the occasional Sundays, and that’s it, through to those who devote every minute of their lives trying to deepen and expand their faith.

So what might be the ultimate ‘after life’ destiny of each person within that vast range?

1) Will that likewise range from being eternally tormented day and night in hell fire, through to spending an eternal life of utmost ‘paradise’ (to coin the word) in the presence of God?

If so, then where might the crossover point lay in the range from proactive atheistic disbelief, through to total devotion of Faith, ?

Or

2) Will the whole thing be resolved in an ‘Ultimate Reconciliation’?

Or

3) Will there be another ‘range’ between ‘1’ and ‘2’?

Both go to Hell. Revelation I believe states to either be hot or cold not lukewarm. There is no try, do or don't do.

 

[Willie T]

Both go to Hell. Revelation I believe states to either be hot or cold not lukewarm. There is no try, do or don't do.

What does "being hot" or "being cold" mean to you? (Consider the location of the city being spoken of... And remember that God actually desires for them to be either Cold or Hot.)

 

[historyb]

What does "being hot" or "being cold" mean to you? (Consider the location of the city being spoken of...)

Means what is says I reckon, either you follow Christ or not period

 

[Willie T]

Means what is says I reckon, either you follow Christ or not period

In this case (because of the geographical location the city of Laodicea is known for), BOTH COLD and HOT were very desirable things God wanted His church to be.

 

[Willie T]

This requires that we know something about the location of the city. (As everyone back then did.)

 

[historyb]

In this case (because of the geographical location the city of Laodicea is known for), BOTH COLD and HOT were very desirable things God wanted His church to be.

No either be Cold or Hot not both. Assuming God wants both is a misreading. It would be better if they were cold (not following Christ) or hot (following Christ) than just sometimes following and sometimes not following (lukewarm).

 

[Willie T]

No either be Cold or Hot not both. Assuming God wants both is a misreading. It would be better if they were cold (not following Christ) or hot (following Christ) than just sometimes following and sometimes not following (lukewarm).

I will not just give you the answer. Please spend a little time to learn what Laodicea was renowned for possessing in the higher countryside around it. OK?

This is one of the ways we go SO wrong. We try to make 1st Century thinking fit things as we see them today. The letters weren't written to us.

 

[Willie T]

Maybe I'm expecting too much.... So here is some reading on the subject:

First-century Laodicea sat astride two major trade routes. The first road ran from Rome eastward into Asia Minor, then beyond to Cilicia where Paul was born. At Derbe it split: One leg went to the south through Damascus and on into Egypt; the other leg struck across the east to Mesopotamia, the ancient home of Babylon. Connecting the city to southern Europe through Byzantium, the second route entered Laodicea from the north and continued to the Mediterranean.

The founders built the city in the Lycus Valley where these routes crossed. This provided Laodicea with unlimited opportunities for trade but caused other significant problems. Ideally, prosperous cities are built close to abundant natural resources, especially water. Great cities are usually founded on deep natural harbors or on the banks of navigable rivers where water is abundant. Unfortunately, Laodicea was not established near an adequate water supply. More driven by trade, its builders located it where the roads crossed.

However, the city had much in its favor, and of special note were its three main industries. The Laodiceans produced a glossy, black wool that was prized by the wealthy all over the world. No one knows whether its rich color came from a particular strain of sheep that they bred in the area, or whether they dyed it, but the quality of the wool is indisputable. In fact, they cornered the market in this commodity, producing tremendous wealth.

Their second business was medicine. Laodicea boasted of one of the most renowned medical schools in the world, and with it came all of its associated industries like pharmaceuticals. They produced a world-famous salve, reputed to cure certain kinds of eye diseases. Another salve supposedly healed ear problems. People came from all over the Roman world in search of remedies for their ailments.

These two industries produced a third that multiplied their already vast wealth—banking. Laodicea became a center of currency exchange and money lending. Cicero, it is said, cashed huge bank drafts there. So huge were its assets that, when it was demolished by a first-century earthquake, the city refused Rome's offer of help, rebuilding with its own funds.

So Laodicea had a monopoly in textiles, a world-renowned medical industry, and a prosperous financial center. Writers of the ancient world speak openly of their envy of Laodicean wealth. Record after record attests to their status.

Their one weakness was the water supply. Water had to be piped in to Laodicea. Cold water could come from the abundant supply at Colossae, but by the time it traveled the ten or so miles from the cold springs, it was lukewarm. About six miles away in Hierapolis were hot springs, but that water, too, was lukewarm when it reached Laodicea. Whether they piped in the cold or the hot water, it arrived at Laodicea lukewarm.

What does Christ mean by this metaphor? Cold water stimulates and invigorates. Nothing refreshes more than drinking a glass of cold water on a hot day. And hot water? It is useful for health. Not only do we mix it with teas, herbs, broths, and the like, but it also works as a solvent, good for cleaning just about anything.

What does lukewarm water do? Christ's complaint against the Laodiceans is revealed here: It is good for nothing! The Laodicean is useless to Him. Lukewarm water is an emetic: It makes one vomit. In terms of God's work, a lukewarm Christian is useless. The other traits of Laodiceanism spring from this characteristic of uselessness. As Head of the church, Christ cannot use them in the spiritual state in which He finds them. We should think of this in terms of biblical symbolism: Water represents God's Holy Spirit.
John W. Ritenbaugh

 

[Helen]

In this case (because of the geographical location the city of Laodicea is known for), BOTH COLD and HOT were very desirable things God wanted His church to be.

I read it was the springs .
There was a cold refreshing spring as drinking water .And a hot springs for bathing and other things.
The lukewarm was not good to either drink , or to bathe in ....( =mixture ...and God does not like mixture)

Forgotten now where I read it...but long ago ....I have no knowledge of the geography of the place.

 

[Nancy]

Maybe I'm expecting too much.... So here is some reading on the subject:

First-century Laodicea sat astride two major trade routes. The first road ran from Rome eastward into Asia Minor, then beyond to Cilicia where Paul was born. At Derbe it split: One leg went to the south through Damascus and on into Egypt; the other leg struck across the east to Mesopotamia, the ancient home of Babylon. Connecting the city to southern Europe through Byzantium, the second route entered Laodicea from the north and continued to the Mediterranean.

The founders built the city in the Lycus Valley where these routes crossed. This provided Laodicea with unlimited opportunities for trade but caused other significant problems. Ideally, prosperous cities are built close to abundant natural resources, especially water. Great cities are usually founded on deep natural harbors or on the banks of navigable rivers where water is abundant. Unfortunately, Laodicea was not established near an adequate water supply. More driven by trade, its builders located it where the roads crossed.

However, the city had much in its favor, and of special note were its three main industries. The Laodiceans produced a glossy, black wool that was prized by the wealthy all over the world. No one knows whether its rich color came from a particular strain of sheep that they bred in the area, or whether they dyed it, but the quality of the wool is indisputable. In fact, they cornered the market in this commodity, producing tremendous wealth.

Their second business was medicine. Laodicea boasted of one of the most renowned medical schools in the world, and with it came all of its associated industries like pharmaceuticals. They produced a world-famous salve, reputed to cure certain kinds of eye diseases. Another salve supposedly healed ear problems. People came from all over the Roman world in search of remedies for their ailments.

These two industries produced a third that multiplied their already vast wealth—banking. Laodicea became a center of currency exchange and money lending. Cicero, it is said, cashed huge bank drafts there. So huge were its assets that, when it was demolished by a first-century earthquake, the city refused Rome's offer of help, rebuilding with its own funds.

So Laodicea had a monopoly in textiles, a world-renowned medical industry, and a prosperous financial center. Writers of the ancient world speak openly of their envy of Laodicean wealth. Record after record attests to their status.

Their one weakness was the water supply. Water had to be piped in to Laodicea. Cold water could come from the abundant supply at Colossae, but by the time it traveled the ten or so miles from the cold springs, it was lukewarm. About six miles away in Hierapolis were hot springs, but that water, too, was lukewarm when it reached Laodicea. Whether they piped in the cold or the hot water, it arrived at Laodicea lukewarm.

What does Christ mean by this metaphor? Cold water stimulates and invigorates. Nothing refreshes more than drinking a glass of cold water on a hot day. And hot water? It is useful for health. Not only do we mix it with teas, herbs, broths, and the like, but it also works as a solvent, good for cleaning just about anything.

What does lukewarm water do? Christ's complaint against the Laodiceans is revealed here: It is good for nothing! The Laodicean is useless to Him. Lukewarm water is an emetic: It makes one vomit. In terms of God's work, a lukewarm Christian is useless. The other traits of Laodiceanism spring from this characteristic of uselessness. As Head of the church, Christ cannot use them in the spiritual state in which He finds them. We should think of this in terms of biblical symbolism: Water represents God's Holy Spirit.
John W. Ritenbaugh

Several years back , I heard a teaching on these cold and hot water outlets. Was not sure what to make of it and, what you posted above is the only other time I heard of this. Allot to be learned from this.