1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Winepress

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by VictoryinJesus, Apr 12, 2018.

  1. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,182
    Likes Received:
    3,259
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    'by different ways' I mean the same story is described using varying imagery. Gods justice executed, God's mercy revealed.

    It is against people who in the context are represented by the sin bearer. He bears their sin single handedly.
     
  2. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,521
    Likes Received:
    5,660
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Bear with me. I have so many questions and the only way you can possibly address my confusion, is to see where I am coming from. Not saying it is right, but if it is not. Show me why?

    Lamentations 1:1
    [1] How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!

    We know who the widow is. (Romans 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

    There is that word "fruit". Same chapter, a continuation of anguish: Lamentations 1:13-15 From above hath he sent fire into my bones, and it prevaileth against them: he hath spread a net for my feet, he hath turned me back: he hath made me desolate and faint all the day. [14] The yoke of my transgressions is bound by his hand: they are wreathed, and come up upon my neck: he hath made my strength to fall, the Lord hath delivered me into their hands, from whom I am not able to rise up. [15] The Lord hath trodden under foot all my mighty men in the midst of me: he hath called an assembly against me to crush my young men: the Lord hath trodden the virgin, the daughter of Judah, as in a winepress.

    “he hath spread a net for my feet” whose feet?
    “The Lord hath trodden under foot all my mighty men in the midst of me”
    As in what? A winepress. A winepress action of crushing is to bear fruit(wine fat). Yes or no? His chosen people are troddened under foot. Who is speaking in Lamentations if it is not "the widow" Jerusalem(the works of man). Jesus Christ was trodden under foot without the gate. And that is also where the winepress is at: "trodden without the city" ---without what city? without (the works of man): where it is God's work, not man's work that provides "works of faith" and "fruit out of faith".

    Luke 21:24
    [24] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    They were led away captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem(spiritual) is trodden down by the gentiles. It is no longer a temple. But a temple made without hands. It is no longer man's table but the Lord's table. It is no longer mans city but "For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." It is all without the gate of the Spiritual City and narrow is the gate in.

    Same as the head(Jesus Christ) was troddened under foot without the gate, so is His chosen. Hebrews 10:29 Tells us:
    [29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    “Trodden under foot the Son of God” and counted the blood of the covenant, “wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing,”

    Like the head Gods elect are (willingly) trodden under foot. Paul is one of them: Hebrews 13:12-13 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. [13] Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

    Why will Jesus Christ trodden the wicked men's winepress and wear their fruit, so that the ones seeing "Him" for the first time ask about His "glorious apparel"? Do wicked men produce good(glorious) fruit? When Paul said lets go forth therefore unto him without the camp...what for? What is there? A crushing? "In fury" could be because God almighty trodden under foot the Son of God in God's wrath to bear fruit unto righteousness. Paul warns not to call the blood wherewith you are sanctified in(the Lambs blood) an unholy thing.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
  3. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,939
    Likes Received:
    3,164
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    No, you mean 'different ways' you mean whatever way you want it to mean. That has to be the case since your interpretation does just that.

    You speak of 'context' yet you are void of context. To say, 'It is against people who...are represented by the sin bearer' makes no sense. There is nothing in the context to present the Messiah here as a sin bearer. It is the day of vengeance against the enemies of God and Christ. Context is clear. You pervert the 'context'.

    Stranger
     
  4. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,939
    Likes Received:
    3,164
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I disagree. (Rom. 7:4) does not identify the widow of (Lam. 1:1). That a widow is described in (Rom. 7:4), yes. But, just because a widow is described there, does not make the widow in (Lam. 1:1) that widow. In Bible interpretation we must recognize that a common word does not necessarily mean the same subject matter is being addressed. Every time the word 'fire' is used does not always mean hell or eternal damnation. Every time the word 'water' is used does not always speak to Baptism.

    Read all of (Lamentations 1). The widow is described as Jerusalem. She is a widow because she has been removed away from God by God. (1:8) "Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed:...." Why? Because of her rebellion against God. (1:18)

    Now you will have to bear with 'me' in explaining (Rom. 7:4). Go back to (Rom. 6:14). "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Then in (Rom. 7:1) Paul says, "Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? So, in (Rom. 6) Paul is addressing sin not having dominion over the believer. In (Rom. 7) Paul is addressing the Law not having dominion over the believer.

    Why must Paul separate the believer from turning to the Law of Moses? Because many Jews still honored the Law and placed themselves under it and after all, wasn't it given by God in the first place. So it was a natural tendency to turn to the high moral standards of the Law. The Jewish believer had the tendency to stay under the Law, and the Gentile believer had the tendency to turn to the Law.

    Paul was addressing the dominion of sin in (Rom. 6) and how it will not have dominion over the believer. But turning to the Law does not free the believer from the sin. To turn to the Law is to jump from the pan to the fire. To illustrate, Paul in (Rom. 7:2-4) gives an illustration of how the Law has no dominion over a dead man. This illustration can be confusing because in (7:1) the one that dies is the believer. But in the illustration of (7:2-4) it is the husband that dies that frees the believer from the Law.

    I am getting to lengthy here so will continue in another post.

    Stranger
     
    Helen likes this.
  5. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,939
    Likes Received:
    3,164
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Continued from post #44

    The cast in the illustration of (Rom. 7:2-4):

    1. The woman=the believer.
    2. First husband=God through Christ in the flesh.
    3. Second husband=God through Christ resurrected.
    4. Law of first husband=Mosaic Law.
    5. Law of second husband=Law of the Spirit.

    The first marriage relationship deals with the believer under the Law. He is united to God and Christ while Christ was under the Law. But then the husband dies freeing the woman to wed another. The believer is now wedded to a new husband the resurrected Christ wherein a new principle exists which is not the Mosaic Law but the Law of the Spirit. The believer is now in Christ, a new husband, and under a new Law.

    As a result of this, the believer didn't die, but has become dead to the Law. The believer is in a place where the Law cannot reach, dictate, or condemn him. Thus (Rom. 7:4) "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ: that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."

    And, (Rom. 8:2) "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

    So, you see the action taking place against the widow in Lamentations is not the same as for the widow in Romans. They are different widows.

    The winepress in lamentations is going against Israel in judgement. In (Is. 63:1-6) it is going against the unbelieving world who has rejected God and Christ. Just because the winepress is used to describe these judgement's doesn't make the judgement the same.

    (Luke 21:24) is an Israel under judgement. (Heb. 11:8-19) is dealing with the believers and their great faith. The two are not the same.

    The winepress you speak of is God's, not the wickeds. And it is not their fruit He is splattered with in (Is. 63:1-6). It is their blood.

    Pauls statements concerning our going outside the camp have nothing to do with (Is. 63:1-6).

    Stranger
     
    Helen likes this.
  6. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,182
    Likes Received:
    3,259
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    What can I say? I tell you what I mean to clarify my statement and yet you choose to tell me otherwise.
    If you cannot hear it you can not hear it!
     
  7. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,939
    Likes Received:
    3,164
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    But you didn't clarify your statement. You just said the same thing which is wrong.

    How do you know who and who does not have ears to hear? And whose voice is the ears supposed tobe tuned to or not tuned to. Not yours...correct?

    Stranger
     
  8. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,182
    Likes Received:
    3,259
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    ↑quietthinker said
    What can I say? I tell you what I mean to clarify my statement and yet you choose to tell me otherwise.
    If you cannot hear it you can not hear it!
    But you didn't clarify your statement. You just said the same thing which is wrong

    Here is the copied communication again Stranger in case you missed the clarification and in case you miss it again I have typed it out below.

    'by different ways' I mean the same story is described using varying imagery. Gods justice executed, God's mercy revealed.
    It is against people (as you say) who in the context are represented by the sin bearer. He bears their sin single handedly.
     
  9. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,521
    Likes Received:
    5,660
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Read over your post, considering what you have shared and studying it. Thank you for taking the time to write it out. Will come back hopefully tomorrow.

    One question. As I was reading all of Lamentations one as you recommended Zechariah 11:7 came to mind. “And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.”

    What does it mean to you?
    “Beauty” “Bands”
     
  10. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,939
    Likes Received:
    3,164
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    (Is. 63:1-6) is not about Christ as the sin bearer. It is about Christ coming in vengeance. That is the context. (63:4) (63:6) There is no mercy here for those He is coming in vengeance against.

    Jesus Christ Himself makes this clear. In (Luke 4:16-18) when He entered His public ministry He began by going to the synogogue and reading from Isaiah (61:1-2) which prophesied of Messiahs coming.

    (Is. 61:2) says "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God;..."

    But when Christ quoted it in (Luke 4:19) He stopped after the word LORD. Why? Because now was not the time for the day of vengeance. This was the time when He would be the sin bearer, proclaiming liberty and setting the captives free. His first coming.

    But in (Is. 63:4) Christ is saying "The day of vengeance is in my heart." It's time has come. His Second coming.

    Stranger
     
  11. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,521
    Likes Received:
    5,660
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Clearly illustrated. There is no disagreement. You said "The winepress in lamentations is going against Israel in judgement. In (Is. 63:1-6) it is going against the unbelieving world who has rejected God and Christ. Just because the winepress is used to describe these judgement's doesn't make the judgement the same." and "Read all of (Lamentations 1). The widow is described as Jerusalem. She is a widow because she has been removed away from God by God. (1:8) "Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed:...." Why? Because of her rebellion against God. (1:18)" ..."her rebellions against God" ...how did she become a widow? and what about Jerusalem?

    Was the Lord trodden under foot without the gate? If so, by who?
     
  12. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,939
    Likes Received:
    3,164
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Let me give you what Charles Lee Feinberg has said concerning chapter 11 of Zechariah. (The Minor Prophets, Charles L. Feinberg, Moody Press, 1982)

    "The events themselves concern the more distant future from the standpoint of the prophet. The chapter is undoubtedly the darkest of Israel's history. And there has been much difference of opinion as to which desolation Zechariah has in mind in the highly poetic words of the first three verses...However, the context of the rest of the chapter is determining and it points unmistakably to the judgment which resulted from the rejection of the Shepherd of Israel, that destruction which overtook the land and people in AD 70." (pages 324-325)

    "If we take the words as literal, we have a most graphic picture of the way God's judgment fell on the land from north to south in AD 70." (p. 325)

    "The cause of the judgment, the rejection of the Messiah by Israel, is now elaborated upon. The charge is to the prophet who performed in vision what was commanded. He acted representatively for the Messiah in whose personal history these transactions took place. " (p. 325)

    "It is actually the commission of the Son of God by the Father. The Messiah is given the task of feeding the flock of slaughter. He was to act as a shepherd to the flock who were yet to be slaughtered. (Note Ps. 44:22.) They were doomed to be slaughtered by the Romans for their sin. We have the authority of the historian Josephus that about a million and a half perished in the war with Rome." (p. 326)

    "But the climax of woe is reached when the Lord states He will no longer pity the people of the land....The Lord, in not pitying them, delivered them over to internal strife....Moreover, they were to be delivered into the hand of their king, in this instance the Roman emperor whom they themselves acknowledged as king....Well did the Lord call His own people the flock of slaughter" (p. 326)

    "Two staves are taken because the shepherd in the East carried a staff to protect against wild beasts, another to help the sheep in difficult and dangerous places. The names give to them in this instance indicate the purpose God intended for Israel in the shepherd ministry of the Messiah. The first is called Beauty or favor, or graciousness; the second is called Bands or bonds, or binders. The first indicated God's restraint on the nations from destroying the nation Israel; the second had reference to the brotherly ties within the nation itself." (p.327)

    "In other words, by the work of the Messiah the Lord meant to preserve for Israel His overruling providences among the nations of the earth whereby they could not and would not work His people harm; by that same benevolent oversight the brotherly bonds in the nation were to be confirmed and strengthened. " (p. 327)

    I agree with Feinberg here. And of course as a result of breaking those two staffs of protection, the enemies were allowed in to destroy Israel, which they did. Feinberg has a single commentary on Zechariah called "God Remembers".

    Stranger
     
  13. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,521
    Likes Received:
    5,660
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Why? Zechariah 11:10-14
    [10] And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. (when did this happen?) [11] And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the Lord . [12] And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. [13] And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord . [14] Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

    Lamentations 2:1-22
    [1] How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger! [2] The Lord hath swallowed up all the habitations of Jacob, and hath not pitied: he hath thrown down in his wrath the strong holds(Bands) of the daughter of Judah; he hath brought them down to the ground: he hath polluted the kingdom and the princes thereof. [3] He hath cut off in his fierce anger all the horn of Israel: he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy, and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about. [4] He hath bent his bow like an enemy (who is His bow?): he stood with his right hand as an adversary, and slew all that were pleasant to the eye in the tabernacle of the daughter of Zion: he poured out his fury like fire. [5] The Lord was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation. [6] And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden(taken away/cast down from heaven from verse 1): he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the Lord hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest. [7] The Lord hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the Lord , as in the day of a solemn feast. [8] The Lord hath purposed to destroy the wall of the daughter of Zion: he hath stretched out a line, he hath not withdrawn his hand from destroying: therefore he made the rampart and the wall to lament; they languished together. [9] Her gates are sunk into the ground; he hath destroyed and broken her bars: her king and her princes are among the Gentiles: the law is no more ; her prophets also find no vision from the Lord . [10] The elders of the daughter of Zion sit upon the ground, and keep silence: they have cast up dust upon their heads; they have girded themselves with sackcloth: the virgins of Jerusalem hang down their heads to the ground. [11] Mine eyes do fail with tears, my bowels are troubled, my liver is poured upon the earth, for the destruction of the daughter of my people; because the children and the sucklings swoon in the streets of the city. [12] They say to their mothers, Where is corn and wine? when they swooned as the wounded in the streets of the city, when their soul was poured out into their mothers' bosom.

    Verse 13 is very important [13] What thing shall I take to witness for thee? what thing shall I liken to thee, O daughter of Jerusalem? what shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort thee, O virgin daughter of Zion? for thy breach is great like the sea: who can heal thee? [14] Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee: and they have not discovered thine iniquity, to turn away thy captivity; but have seen for thee false burdens and causes of banishment. [15] All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth? [16] All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth: they say, We have swallowed her up:(But God said "I have done it. I swallowed her up." certainly this is the day that we looked for; we have found, we have seen it . [17] The Lord hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries. [18] Their heart cried unto the Lord, O wall of the daughter of Zion, let tears run down like a river day and night: give thyself no rest; let not the apple of thine eye cease. [19] Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the Lord: lift up thy hands toward him for the life of thy young children, that faint for hunger in the top of every street. [20] Behold, O Lord , and consider to whom thou hast done this. Shall the women eat their fruit, and children of a span long? shall the priest and the prophet be slain in the sanctuary of the Lord? [21] The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets: my virgins and my young men are fallen by the sword; thou hast slain them in the day of thine anger; thou hast killed, and not pitied. [22] Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the Lord's anger none escaped nor remained: those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed.

    Luke 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

    Psalm 107: 14-15 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!


    ...He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.
     
  14. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,521
    Likes Received:
    5,660
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Was not Beauty broken to loose bands? You still refuse to see we were the wild beast.
    Isaiah 43:18-21
    [18] Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. [19] Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert. [20] The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen. [21] This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

    “I will do a new thing” “now it shall spring forth”...Christ. A way in the wilderness. How do the beast of the field honour the Lord? Because He gives water in the wilderness and there with her son waits the bondslave that was cast out of the house. God brings her back into the house of Beauty...Abraham’s house of the free woman.
     
  15. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,939
    Likes Received:
    3,164
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You ask 'what about Jerusalem'? Jerusalem has been removed by God for her sins. Thus she has become a widow because she was always in a wife relationship to God. (Is. 54:5) But then God divorced her. (Hosea 2:2) She becomes in a destitute condition.

    The Lord was slain without the gate. It would be done by God, through Rome, through Israel. But here in (Lam. 1:15) the Lord is trodding Jerusalem underfoot. Jeremiah is the one speaking in (1:18).

    Stranger
     
  16. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,939
    Likes Received:
    3,164
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I don't understand what you are asking. I believe I explained why already.

    Stranger
     
  17. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,939
    Likes Received:
    3,164
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Both staffs were broken. And I see nothing to indicate we are the wild beasts in (Is. 43).

    Beauty is not a house, it is a staff.

    Stranger
     
  18. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,814
    Likes Received:
    1,100
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Hello

    Can I be permitted to ask these question as to the time period that Laminations is speaking of?

    Was the period of time the Exile in Babylon? Or is it applicable to the period of time of God walking contrary to them, which means that the Book of Laminations is even now still describing the present time of the existence of israel?
     
  19. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,939
    Likes Received:
    3,164
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The time period is the fall of Judah and Jerusalem by the Babylonians. Since that time, the Jews have been walking contrary to God. They have been under the judgement of God. The ramifications of which carry all the way to our present time.

    Stranger
     
  20. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,814
    Likes Received:
    1,100
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Are you really sure about that because the last Chapter suggests a much longer time period than the Babylonian Exile period of some 70 years. It is my understanding that, Lam 5:19-22 is referencing a much longer time period. That this time period is now approaching over 2,000 years as we are coming to the possible point in the journey of Israel, where God could decide to reject Israel all together if they do not repent of their continual idolatrous worship over nearly four ages, from around the time of the start of Israel's existence, where the birth of Isaac marks the beginning of God's promise to Abraham of many descendant generations.

    Shalom.
     
Loading...