The Winepress

[VictoryinJesus]

Both staffs were broken. And I see nothing to indicate we are the wild beasts in (Is. 43).

Yes. They were both broken.

The names give to them in this instance indicate the purpose God intended for Israel in the shepherd ministry of the Messiah. The first is called Beauty or favor, or graciousness; the second is called Bands or bonds, or binders. The first indicated God's restraint on the nations from destroying the nation Israel;

I never said the staff was a house, if I did that is not what I meant to say. “Favor” or “graciousness” broken. You said “The first indicated God’s restraint on the nations from destroying the nation Israel”. Was that restraint broken?


What is Jacob’s trouble for?

 

[Stranger]

Are you really sure about that because the last Chapter suggests a much longer time period than the Babylonian Exile period of some 70 years. It is my understanding that, Lam 5:19-22 is referencing a much longer time period. That this time period is now approaching over 2,000 years as we are coming to the possible point in the journey of Israel, where God could decide to reject Israel all together if they do not repent of their continual idolatrous worship over nearly four ages, from around the time of the start of Israel's existence, where the birth of Isaac marks the beginning of God's promise to Abraham of many descendant generations.

Shalom.

I am not sure what you are saying. Do you believe Lamentations was written by Jeremiah?

I don't understand your statement, "where God could decide to reject Israel all together". God has made it clear that He will never do that and that He will restore Israel to her place as the leading nation of the world from where the Messiah will rule and reign in Jerusalem.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Yes. They were both broken.



I never said the staff was a house, if I did that is not what I meant to say. “Favor” or “graciousness” broken. You said “The first indicated God’s restraint on the nations from destroying the nation Israel”. Was that restraint broken?


What is Jacob’s trouble for?

Yes, that restraint was broken, as illustrated by the broken staff. (Zech. 11:10-11) Feinberg makes a good point concerning the covenant that was broken in (Zech. 11:10). "This indicated the breaking of the covenant which God had made with all the peoples. The peoples spoken of here are not the tribes of Israel, as some think, for they are not so designated in the Scriptures.....Zechariah is speaking of the nations of the earth, and he reveals an important truth: God has made a covenant with the peoples of the earth relative to His own people Israel. He has placed restraint lest they work Israel harm or ill." (The Minor Prophets, Charles L. Feinberg, Moody Press, 1982, p. 327-328)

Concerning 'Jacobs trouble' do you have a particular verse in mind or just 'Jacobs trouble' in general?

Stranger

 

[Jay Ross]

I am not sure what you are saying. Do you believe Lamentations was written by Jeremiah?

It is my understanding that the Book of Lamentations was written by Jeremiah. But the Lamentation was for a later time period which technically began when Christ was born and it will end when God establishes His Everlasting Kingdom here on the earth. As Paul tells us in Romans 11:25-26, "after the fullness in time of the heathen Gentiles, trampling the Sanctuary of God is has run its full course in time, then, after that, all of Israe will be saved. Jeremiah speaks of a period of two ages where God is walking contrary to Israel and in the third age, he will restore once again His relationship with the Nation of Israel.

Lamentation 5:19-22 -
19 You, Lord, reign forever;
your throne endures from generation to generation.
20 Why do you always forget us?
Why do you forsake us so long?
21 Restore us to yourself, Lord, that we may return;
renew our days as of old
22 unless you have utterly rejected us
and are angry with us beyond measure.

I don't understand your statement, "where God could decide to reject Israel all together". God has made it clear that He will never do that and that He will restore Israel to her place as the leading nation of the world from where the Messiah will rule and reign in Jerusalem.

It is my understanding that your statement that that the Messiah will rule and reign in Jerusalem, is not supported by scripture.

God does promise Israel that when he restore them that he will plant them in good soil where they are residing t that point in time, and will teach them the basic truths draw from the mountain(s) of Israel at that time. God has also undertaken to make like new again, i.e. refurbish like new, the Covenant of a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation and His possession among the Nations which they had rebelled against at Mt Sinai. The Nation will be God's Shepherds to the Nations of the World.

Shalom

 

[Stranger]

It is my understanding that the Book of Lamentations was written by Jeremiah. But the Lamentation was for a later time period which technically began when Christ was born and it will end when God establishes His Everlasting Kingdom here on the earth. As Paul tells us in Romans 11:25-26, "after the fullness in time of the heathen Gentiles, trampling the Sanctuary of God is has run its full course in time, then, after that, all of Israe will be saved. Jeremiah speaks of a period of two ages where God is walking contrary to Israel and in the third age, he will restore once again His relationship with the Nation of Israel.

Lamentation 5:19-22 -
19 You, Lord, reign forever;
your throne endures from generation to generation.
20 Why do you always forget us?
Why do you forsake us so long?
21 Restore us to yourself, Lord, that we may return;
renew our days as of old
22 unless you have utterly rejected us
and are angry with us beyond measure.




It is my understanding that your statement that that the Messiah will rule and reign in Jerusalem, is not supported by scripture.

God does promise Israel that when he restore them that he will plant them in good soil where they are residing t that point in time, and will teach them the basic truths draw from the mountain(s) of Israel at that time. God has also undertaken to make like new again, i.e. refurbish like new, the Covenant of a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation and His possession among the Nations which they had rebelled against at Mt Sinai. The Nation will be God's Shepherds to the Nations of the World.

Shalom

Lamentations is written by Jeremiah. It concerns the time period of the destruction of Judah and Jerusalem. Jeremiah was a witness to this. Thus he is the weeping prophet. This judgement has had consequences all the way up to the present day. And will have until Christ returns. But there is no reason to suggest Lamentations is not addressing the destruction of Judah and Jerusalem by the Babylonians.

My point to you was that your statement indicating God could reject Israel altogether, was wrong. Which you now seem to say differently.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Concerning 'Jacobs trouble' do you have a particular verse in mind or just 'Jacobs trouble' in general?

Why is the final week(of Daniel’s vision) reserved for endtimes

 

[Stranger]

Why is the final week(of Daniel’s vision) reserved for endtimes

Because it is the final week. The end of which begins a new age, the millennium. That too has a beginning and an end where God creates a new heaven and new earth.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It is my understanding that the Book of Lamentations was written by Jeremiah. But the Lamentation was for a later time period which technically began when Christ was born and it will end when God establishes His Everlasting Kingdom here on the earth. As Paul tells us in Romans 11:25-26, "after the fullness in time of the heathen Gentiles, trampling the Sanctuary of God is has run its full course in time, then, after that, all of Israe will be saved

Galatians 4:27
[27] For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Widows:
“for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.”

That one verse tells it is ongoing. You hear it in Lamentations. You hear it in all of the Word, it is His purpose revealing this time. Consider though the trampling. The Son was the same “trodden under foot”. Paul is laid there under foot. All that belong to the Lord are laid there to bear “fruit” unto righteousness. God took His bride without the gate of “no continuing city” and keeps her in a place that does continue. The Son was troddened. The body is also trodden down by the gentiles. Why? To glorify her to her full statue of mercy and grace and forgiveness. Are you a Jew(kin) Spiritually? Are you a child of the desolate?

John 17:10
[10] And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

“I am glorified in them.”

Colossians 2:19-23
[19] And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Together we “increase with the increase of God” more children born of Desolation. An enlargement of God’s Kingdom, instead of an enlargement of hell.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes, that restraint was broken, as illustrated by the broken staff. (Zech. 11:10-11) Feinberg makes a good point concerning the covenant that was broken in (Zech. 11:10). "This indicated the breaking of the covenant which God had made with all the peoples. The peoples spoken of here are not the tribes of Israel, as some think, for they are not so designated in the Scriptures.....Zechariah is speaking of the nations of the earth, and he reveals an important truth: God has made a covenant with the peoples of the earth relative to His own people Israel. He has placed restraint lest they work Israel harm or ill." (The Minor Prophets, Charles L. Feinberg, Moody Press, 1982, p. 327-328)

Concerning 'Jacobs trouble' do you have a particular verse in mind or just 'Jacobs trouble' in general?

Stranger

The broken staff(s): favor and brotherhood. Both are restored in the Kingdom of God. Do you have favor, Stranger? Do you have brotherhood? Is your favor or brotherhood anchored in the physical Jerusalem? Is it anchored in flesh? The reason why you are anchored in a spiritual Israel (from above) is because the staffs were broken. You say "wild beast" didn't come upon the nation Israel, but they did. Favor and brotherhood, was moved. The call is to Christ. You prefer to call "wild beast" the Babylonians, then do. Worldly. Wickedness. Uncleanness. Religious vain-seekers of worldly favor at the disposal of God's people. "beast" is man without God. I am not saying every time a word is used in His word it means the same thing but I don't go to the world to define scripture, when we are told to go to God. Let God's word define beast and you will see often it refers to man without God(perdition). Not always. David spoke of this coming in on them as "the deep" come up upon them, a flood into the city of God's chosen. His feet caught in a net but David knowing God would get him free. The bride is without the gate, as Lazarus laid without the gate demonstrates. Gate(s), plural, because there was more than one gate but now there is only One gate. It is in that continuing city you have favor and brotherhood. God broke the staffs for it to be. Same as Adam choose to follow after Eve who was deceived. Same as why the tree of good and evil was planted in the garden. God has a plan. You know it. But if all you speak of is absent of mercy, grace, and forgiveness...then you are not speaking of Him. All condemnation and poison, is bitterness and hatred. This blood-bath you hope for. The one where Mel Gibson could easily play the part of a warrior drenched in the blood of his enemy, where only the white of his eyes can be seen, his yielding a sword that he just slaughtered every "bad" person with...that is not the God I know. Do you really believe God gets any satisfaction or glory out of slaughtering a bunch of flesh? Why? When His people has suffered years of pain in the flesh BY the hand of God to strengthen and break the hold the world has over them? Does corruptible flesh matter to God? It is dead. Flesh doesn't glorify God. It is our absence of love of the world and the temporal flesh that glorifies God. (they loved not their lives unto death). If you are not seeing mercy, that God IS compassion and mercy and longsuffering, and gracious, then you need fresh eyes that haven't been indoctrinated by man telling you, "God is going to slaughter them all!" shake a fist at heaven and cry "KILL THEM ALL GOD!"

We speak with a new tongue: Mercy.

Why is Jacob's trouble not called Israel's trouble?

 

[quietthinker]

(Is. 63:1-6) is not about Christ as the sin bearer. It is about Christ coming in vengeance. That is the context. (63:4) (63:6) There is no mercy here for those He is coming in vengeance against.

Jesus Christ Himself makes this clear. In (Luke 4:16-18) when He entered His public ministry He began by going to the synogogue and reading from Isaiah (61:1-2) which prophesied of Messiahs coming.

(Is. 61:2) says "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God;..."

But when Christ quoted it in (Luke 4:19) He stopped after the word LORD. Why? Because now was not the time for the day of vengeance. This was the time when He would be the sin bearer, proclaiming liberty and setting the captives free. His first coming.

But in (Is. 63:4) Christ is saying "The day of vengeance is in my heart." It's time has come. His Second coming.

Stranger

I hear what you are saying Stranger yet I do not find your explanation persuasive.
The reason you give for Jesus not quoting the full text in Luke 4:16-18 are his reasons and not the ones you superimpose upon him.

Isa. 61 covers both aspects of God's duel salvation story (justice and mercy) and this story is in him. Incidentally, the term 'in him' is exploited by Paul throughout Ephesians. Well worth a look.
Now, this might not be your salvation story or how you wish to interpret God's but it is God's nevertheless. This is the context of these chapters.
Isa. 53 particularly vs 10-11 and onwards in that chapter testify to this duel action of God where sin is punished in him and in him is mercy extended. This same theme is presented as I said in my earlier post, many times and in different ways in not only Isa. but throughout all of scripture.
As Paul so eloquently puts it in 2 Cor. 1:20 'for all the promises of God are yes and amen in him'

Now, again, what has been accomplished in Jesus's reality has not yet been accomplished in ours except by the faith which generates hope. We look forward to and hope for the glorious deliverance of the Sons of God. This is yet for us and all God's people to be realised in our experience when mortality puts on immortality and corruption puts on incorruption at his return.

The real Israel of God are not those that call themselves Jews outwardly but those that are Jews inwardly. Not those with the circumcision of the flesh but those who are circumcised in the heart. I'm sure you are familiar with these texts.

Jerusalem, the City of God refers to and are his people, not the bricks and mortar of an inland city in Palestine. The many symbols scripture uses are not only geographical names but names of people to represent the messages he chooses to convey. The name Elijah comes to mind. Both Jesus and John confirmed this.

...and last but not least I apologise for my shortness with you in my comment about not being able to hear.

peace
k.

 

[bbyrd009]

Why is the final week(of Daniel’s vision) reserved for endtimes

bc it's easier to imagine scenarios about tomorrow than it is to change one's mind i guess

 

[Stranger]

The broken staff(s): favor and brotherhood. Both are restored in the Kingdom of God. Do you have favor, Stranger? Do you have brotherhood? Is your favor or brotherhood anchored in the physical Jerusalem? Is it anchored in flesh? The reason why you are anchored in a spiritual Israel (from above) is because the staffs were broken. You say "wild beast" didn't come upon the nation Israel, but they did. Favor and brotherhood, was moved. The call is to Christ. You prefer to call "wild beast" the Babylonians, then do. Worldly. Wickedness. Uncleanness. Religious vain-seekers of worldly favor at the disposal of God's people. "beast" is man without God. I am not saying every time a word is used in His word it means the same thing but I don't go to the world to define scripture, when we are told to go to God. Let God's word define beast and you will see often it refers to man without God(perdition). Not always. David spoke of this coming in on them as "the deep" come up upon them, a flood into the city of God's chosen. His feet caught in a net but David knowing God would get him free. The bride is without the gate, as Lazarus laid without the gate demonstrates. Gate(s), plural, because there was more than one gate but now there is only One gate. It is in that continuing city you have favor and brotherhood. God broke the staffs for it to be. Same as Adam choose to follow after Eve who was deceived. Same as why the tree of good and evil was planted in the garden. God has a plan. You know it. But if all you speak of is absent of mercy, grace, and forgiveness...then you are not speaking of Him. All condemnation and poison, is bitterness and hatred. This blood-bath you hope for. The one where Mel Gibson could easily play the part of a warrior drenched in the blood of his enemy, where only the white of his eyes can be seen, his yielding a sword that he just slaughtered every "bad" person with...that is not the God I know. Do you really believe God gets any satisfaction or glory out of slaughtering a bunch of flesh? Why? When His people has suffered years of pain in the flesh BY the hand of God to strengthen and break the hold the world has over them? Does corruptible flesh matter to God? It is dead. Flesh doesn't glorify God. It is our absence of love of the world and the temporal flesh that glorifies God. (they loved not their lives unto death). If you are not seeing mercy, that God IS compassion and mercy and longsuffering, and gracious, then you need fresh eyes that haven't been indoctrinated by man telling you, "God is going to slaughter them all!" shake a fist at heaven and cry "KILL THEM ALL GOD!"

We speak with a new tongue: Mercy.

Why is Jacob's trouble not called Israel's trouble?

Am I speaking to the same person. In post #42, you said 'bear with me'. So, I have. I have answered your questions to the best of my ability. I have given the references for the answers to show that it is not all of me.

Then you respond with this berating post. Thus your questions were not of wanting to know something. They simply were a means of setting me up for this berating post. OK. So you did. Your last question remains for others to answer.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I hear what you are saying Stranger yet I do not find your explanation persuasive.
The reason you give for Jesus not quoting the full text in Luke 4:16-18 are his reasons and not the ones you superimpose upon him.

Isa. 61 covers both aspects of God's duel salvation story (justice and mercy) and this story is in him. Incidentally, the term 'in him' is exploited by Paul throughout Ephesians. Well worth a look.
Now, this might not be your salvation story or how you wish to interpret God's but it is God's nevertheless. This is the context of these chapters.
Isa. 53 particularly vs 10-11 and onwards in that chapter testify to this duel action of God where sin is punished in him and in him is mercy extended. This same theme is presented as I said in my earlier post, many times and in different ways in not only Isa. but throughout all of scripture.
As Paul so eloquently puts it in 2 Cor. 1:20 'for all the promises of God are yes and amen in him'

Now, again, what has been accomplished in Jesus's reality has not yet been accomplished in ours except by the faith which generates hope. We look forward to and hope for the glorious deliverance of the Sons of God. This is yet for us and all God's people to be realised in our experience when mortality puts on immortality and corruption puts on incorruption at his return.

The real Israel of God are not those that call themselves Jews outwardly but those that are Jews inwardly. Not those with the circumcision of the flesh but those who are circumcised in the heart. I'm sure you are familiar with these texts.

Jerusalem, the City of God refers to and are his people, not the bricks and mortar of an inland city in Palestine. The many symbols scripture uses are not only geographical names but names of people to represent the messages he chooses to convey. The name Elijah comes to mind. Both Jesus and John confirmed this.

...and last but not least I apologise for my shortness with you in my comment about not being able to hear.

peace
k.

I didn't impose anything on Jesus statements. The reasons are clear as I showed in the Scripture.

Paul didn't 'exploit' anything in the book of Ephesians. He stated what was true.

What Jesus has accomplished for us is real now. Whether we have come into the experience of it is immaterial. It is real and accomplished.

Yes, I am familiar with the verses you and others use to try and make the believer in the Church the real Israel. But it doesn't work. A Gentile believer in Christ does not become a Jew. He does not become the real Israel. The real Israel is the Jew who has a believing heart after God and who comes to God by faith as Abraham did. All other Jews are not the real Israel.

Jerusalem represents Jerusalem.

Do you? We will see.

Stranger

 

[Jay Ross]

Lamentations is written by Jeremiah. It concerns the time period of the destruction of Judah and Jerusalem. Jeremiah was a witness to this. Thus he is the weeping prophet. This judgement has had consequences all the way up to the present day. And will have until Christ returns. But there is no reason to suggest Lamentations is not addressing the destruction of Judah and Jerusalem by the Babylonians.

My point to you was that your statement indicating God could reject Israel altogether, was wrong. Which you now seem to say differently.

Stranger

Remember the parable that Jesus told of the owner who had planted a fig tree in his garden wanting to have the tree dug up and burned/destroyed?

God can change his mind either way. My statement was and is dependant on the Nation of Israel repenting of their continual idolatrous behaviour, which will be one the terms of the peace that they will seek from Christ when they perceive Him dealing with the kings of the earth at Armageddon in our near future.

Nothing in scripture is black and white and nor is it grey.

It was the one who was tending the garden that asked for more time, another season, so that He could nourish the fig tree to begin bearing fruit. If it did not then he too was willing for the fig tree to be destroyed. So, yes, God could reject Israel as I had written, but we also know that His prophetic word does not return without it being fulfilled. So yes, Israel will repent in our near future and as a result they will be saved.

 

[Jay Ross]

Because it is the final week. The end of which begins a new age, the millennium. That too has a beginning and an end where God creates a new heaven and new earth.

Stranger

Really, stranger, are you positive that that will be the case?

It is my understanding that the covenant mentioned in Daniel 9:27, wrongly assumed to be the 70th week, of the Daniel 9:24-27 passage, will occur after Satan has been released after being locked up in the Bottomless pit for 1000 years and the end of the last age which has been wrongly labelled as the Millennium Age. This period is described as the little while period at the very end of the last age.

But, it could also happen as you have suggested, with no great harvest occurring during the time of the Millennium Age, as we have labelled it.

Shalom

 

[Stranger]

Remember the parable that Jesus told of the owner who had planted a fig tree in his garden wanting to have the tree dug up and burned/destroyed?

God can change his mind either way. My statement was and is dependant on the Nation of Israel repenting of their continual idolatrous behaviour, which will be one the terms of the peace that they will seek from Christ when they perceive Him dealing with the kings of the earth at Armageddon in our near future.

Nothing in scripture is black and white and nor is it grey.

It was the one who was tending the garden that asked for more time, another season, so that He could nourish the fig tree to begin bearing fruit. If it did not then he too was willing for the fig tree to be destroyed. So, yes, God could reject Israel as I had written, but we also know that His prophetic word does not return without it being fulfilled. So yes, Israel will repent in our near future and as a result they will be saved.

Nothing in Scripture says God could reject Israel. Nothing. Thus you are wrong in your statement.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Really, stranger, are you positive that that will be the case?

It is my understanding that the covenant mentioned in Daniel 9:27, wrongly assumed to be the 70th week, of the Daniel 9:24-27 passage, will occur after Satan has been released after being locked up in the Bottomless pit for 1000 years and the end of the last age which has been wrongly labelled as the Millennium Age. This period is described as the little while period at the very end of the last age.

But, it could also happen as you have suggested, with no great harvest occurring during the time of the Millennium Age, as we have labelled it.

Shalom

You keep saying, 'it is my understanding'. Which means you don't really know. You ask me if I am positive, yes, I am positive.

Stranger

 

[Jay Ross]

Nothing in Scripture says God could reject Israel. Nothing. Thus you are wrong in your statement.

Stranger

Stranger, there is also nothing in scripture that says that God cannot reject Israel either. Thus your contention that I am in error is a grievous accusation against my good self.

 

[Jay Ross]

You keep saying, 'it is my understanding'. Which means you don't really know. You ask me if I am positive, yes, I am positive.

Stranger

Stranger, your logic, that if I write, "It is my understanding", that what I am saying is that I "don't really know.", is flawed.

My wife prefers me to be more gentle in my approach and to not dogmatically assume that I am right all of the time. It leave some wriggle room for people like you to be able to point out where my posts may be in error. Sadly, in this case, you provided no biblical evidence to positively demonstrate where any error, I might have made, was.

It is my view that you were making a claim concerning the "end Times" and the Daniel 9:27 covenant which is not supported by scripture as you demonstrated.

Shalom

 

[Stranger]

Stranger, there is also nothing in scripture that says that God cannot reject Israel either. Thus your contention that I am in error is a grievous accusation against my good self.

(Is. 44:21) "Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me."

See also, (Is. 43:1-7), (48:9-11), (54:7-8)

(Jer. 31:35-37) "Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD."

See also (Ez. 39:25), (Hosea :11:8) etc. etc. etc.

Stranger