The Wrath of the Lord

[Barrd]

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[ATP]

Do you have some ideas about the when and how Jesus will return for us?
If so, I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say.

If you're just here to argue....we have enough of that already.

I believe He will come down in the clouds to rapture His church when the sixth seal is open. I believe sixth seal is mid tribulation...

1 Thess 4:14-17 NIV For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[Barrd]

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Barrd]

I believe He will come down in the clouds to rapture His church when the sixth seal is open. I believe sixth seal is mid tribulation...

1 Thess 4:14-17 NIV For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Lots of people believe that.
Others don't.

We'll find out when He gets here.

 

[keras]

ATP, where is the Lord coming to [in 1 Thess 4:14-17] and where will He be forever?

 

[Barrd]

The one thing that I am absolutely sure of is this.
He is preparing a place for us, so that we may be with Him where He is.

Now, I'm as curious as anyone else as to the when and how...and I suspect it will not be too much longer now. This old world is becoming more and more wicked with each passing day. How much longer will God allow this to continue?

 

[Barrd]

I believe He will come down in the clouds to rapture His church when the sixth seal is open. I believe sixth seal is mid tribulation...

1 Thess 4:14-17 NIV For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

To me, the most interesting part of that passage is that God is bringing with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
I strongly suspect that, on this side of the cross, when we die, we go directly to Him. Well, we who are truly saved at the time of our death do, anyway.
The rest...well, the rest do not. They must wait until the end of time.

 

[ATP]

ATP, where is the Lord coming to [in 1 Thess 4:14-17] and where will He be forever?

He's coming down from the third heaven into the clouds to rapture us back to the third heaven where we wait until the tribulation is over.

Then the New Jerusalem will come down to the New Earth where we live forever with God.

 

[ATP]

The rest...well, the rest do not. They must wait until the end of time.

No, the dead believers and the believers who are alive go up into the clouds together.

1 Thess 4:17 NIV After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[Barrd]

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Wait...no more sea?
I was really looking forward to a beach house.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Jesus is not constrained to the earth after He returns.

He was mobile in death, not bound to the bosom of Abraham, but He was able to go that deep dark place where the spirits from the time of Noah have been imprisoned and He made an announcement to them (and no, He did not "preach" to them, that is a mis-translation).

Jesus was mobile after His Resurrection as well! He came and went at His leisure to accomplish His Purpose! He would literally pop in and pop out of rooms.

Likewise, Jesus will not be constrained to the earth when He returns, and the clue is in Rev 14:4 when it is said (truthfully) of the 144,000 - "they go wherever the lamb goes," which suggests the Lamb is not tied down. Indeed after the Day of the Lord, Jesus can be seen in Heaven returning, from the meting out His Wrath in Isaiah chapter 63.

So too, it is said of Jerusalem during the Millennium, that it is God's Camp. Nowhere in the Bible can you find the land allotted to the Elect in immortal and imperishable bodies to live along side mortal men. Where is our place? In Heaven. And where will Jesus be when He is not fulfilling His Purpose in the Temple on earth in Jerusalem during the Millennium? With His Bride: us.

 

[Barrd]

No, the dead believers and the believers who are alive go up into the clouds together.

1 Thess 4:17 NIV After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Not at the same time. The verse says "After that".

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Obviously, they have already been with Him for awhile.

15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Those who are still alive must wait...those have fallen asleep must rise first.

16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

[Barrd]

Jesus is not constrained to the earth after He returns.

He was mobile in death, not bound to the bosom of Abraham, but He was able to go that deep dark place where the spirits from the time of Noah have been imprisoned and He made an announcement to them (and no, He did not "preach" to them, that is a mis-translation).

Jesus was mobile after His Resurrection as well! He came and went at His leisure to accomplish His Purpose! He would literally pop in and pop out of rooms.

Likewise, Jesus will not be constrained to the earth when He returns, and the clue is in Rev 14:4 when it is said (truthfully) of the 144,000 - "they go wherever the lamb goes," which suggests the Lamb is not tied down. Indeed after the Day of the Lord, Jesus can be seen in Heaven returning, from the meting out His Wrath in Isaiah chapter 63.

So too, it is said of Jerusalem during the Millennium, that it is God's Camp. Nowhere in the Bible can you find the land allotted to the Elect in immortal and imperishable bodies to live along side mortal men. Where is our place? In Heaven. And where will Jesus be when He is not fulfilling His Purpose in the Temple on earth in Jerusalem during the Millennium? With His Bride: us.

No beach house, then?

 

[ATP]

Not at the same time. The verse says "After that".

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Well, wouldn't you think it's minutes apart since they will be together?

 

[Barrd]

Well, wouldn't you think it's minutes apart since they will be together?

Possibly.
But there is another reason why I have serious doubts.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Now, I could be wrong...but I suspect that these were people who had died looking forward to the Promise. When Jesus died, their long wait was over. I believe that they, like the thief, are with Him in Paradise right now. Those who belong to Him, when they die, I believe that they also join the others in Paradise with Him, and that, when the final Day comes, they will come back with Jesus to greet those who are still alive.

 

[ATP]

But there is another reason why I have serious doubts.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Now, I could be wrong...but I suspect that these were people who had died looking forward to the Promise. When Jesus died, their long wait was over. I believe that they, like the thief, are with Him in Paradise right now. Those who belong to Him, when they die, I believe that they also join the others in Paradise with Him, and that, when the final Day comes, they will come back with Jesus to greet those who are still alive.

Where did those saints go after the Holy City?

These passages are used as an allegory, a metaphor for his death and resurrection. Notice it says the body resurrected, we can clearly see that our bodies are not resurrected until the first resurrection.. Isa 26:19 NIV, Dan 12:11-13 NIV, 1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV, 1 Thess 4:16 NIV, 1 Thess 5:10 NIV, Rev 20:4-6 NIV.

And the graves were opened,.... Which were near the city of Jerusalem: this was a proof of Christ's power over death and the grave, by dying; when he through death, destroyed him that had the power of it, and abolished death itself; and became the plague of death and the destruction of the grave, taking into his hands the keys of hell and death:

 

[Barrd]

Where did those saints go after the Holy City?

Well, that's the question, isn't it?
I believe they went to Paradise, along with the thief.

Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

These passages are used as an allegory, a metaphor for his death and resurrection. Notice it says the body resurrected, we can clearly see that our bodies are not resurrected until the first resurrection.. Isa 26:19 NIV, Dan 12:11-13 NIV, 1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV, 1 Thess 4:16 NIV, 1 Thess 5:10 NIV, Rev 20:4-6 NIV.

Perhaps.
Perhaps not.

And the graves were opened,.... Which were near the city of Jerusalem: this was a proof of Christ's power over death and the grave, by dying; when he through death, destroyed him that had the power of it, and abolished death itself; and became the plague of death and the destruction of the grave, taking into his hands the keys of hell and death:

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I see nothing in that verse that says that only the tombs near Jerusalem were opened. Christ's power of death and the grave is not limited to time or space, as I'm sure you know.

 

[ATP]

I believe they went to Paradise, along with the thief.

Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

If you research the original doctrines of the NT, you will see that there is no punctuation. I would submit that it is translator bias. When you remove the comma you can see that Jesus was simply comforting the thief on the cross. We see in verse 42 that the thief was only interested in coming into his kingdom. The thief was not concerned about when he would be there, rather just being there was what he wanted.

The correct way to read verse 43 is without punctuation. And according to scriptural evidence, neither Jesus nor the thief went to paradise on the day they died because scripture states that Jesus ascended to the Father some 40 days later after His resurrection.

Lastly, the terms "paradise" and "the tree of life" describes a place on the New Earth, Rev 2:7, Rev 22:2, Rev 22:14 and Rev 22:19.

- ATP

 

[ATP]

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[Barrd]

If you research the original doctrines of the NT, you will see that there is no punctuation. I would submit that it is translator bias. When you remove the comma you can see that Jesus was simply comforting the thief on the cross. We see in verse 42 that the thief was only interested in coming into his kingdom. The thief was not concerned about when he would be there, rather just being there was what he wanted.

First of all, I am quite aware that there is no punctuation in the Greek, but thank you for pointing that out for me anyway. However, in English, the sentence calls for a comma, and the logical place for it is before the "Today".
Now, I believe with all of my heart that Jesus told the truth to the thief, and the people who came out of their graves sort of strengthen the idea that he went to Paradise on that very day. If I'm mistaken, so be it...but that's what I think.
I've heard the notion that it is "translator bias" before, and I suppose it might be...but the comma just doesn't seem to fit very well anywhere else. Wouldn't God, in His omniscience, realize that these verses would be translated into English?
Your comment about the thief not being concerned about the when...yes, I can see that, but then, Jesus didn't ask him when he wanted to make the trip, did He? He just told him: "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

The correct way to read verse 43 is without punctuation. And according to scriptural evidence, neither Jesus nor the thief went to paradise on the day they died because scripture states that Jesus ascended to the Father some 40 days later after His resurrection.

Very true.
However, have you forgotten that God is omnipotent? There is nothing impossible for Him. Jesus may not have ascended bodily until about 40 days later...but that doesn't mean that both He and the thief could not have both been present in Paradise that same day anyway.
Remember Who Jesus is.

Lastly, the terms "paradise" and "the tree of life" describes a place on the New Earth, Rev 2:7, Rev 22:2, Rev 22:14 and Rev 22:19.

Paradise doesn't seem to be here at present, though does it? Where do you think it might be?