The Wrath of the Lord

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ATP

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The Barrd said:
However, in English, the sentence calls for a comma, and the logical place for it is before the "Today".
You shouldn't be following English translations at all. It is similar to how the English incorrectly uses the word "hell", but that's for another thread.

The Barrd said:
Very true.
However, have you forgotten that God is omnipotent? There is nothing impossible for Him. Jesus may not have ascended bodily until about 40 days later...but that doesn't mean that both He and the thief could not have both been present in Paradise that same day anyway.
Remember Who Jesus is.
But how do we exist in the third heaven without the breath of life in us?

Gen 2:7 NIV Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Job 34:14-15 NIV If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, 15all humanity would perish together and mankind would return to the dust.

Eccl 12:7 NIV and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

The Barrd said:
Paradise doesn't seem to be here at present, though does it? Where do you think it might be?
Paradise will be on the New Earth..Rev 2:7, Rev 22:2, Rev 22:14 and Rev 22:19.
 

Barrd

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ATP said:
You shouldn't be following English translations at all. It is similar to how the English incorrectly uses the word "hell", but that's for another thread.
So, the Bible isn't meant for everyone, then, is that what you're saying?
I believe that God was with the translators, and that the Bible has all the info I need to know in my own language.
OH, and btw...I think everyone knows that "hell" refers to the grave.

But how do we exist in the third heaven without the breath of life in us?

Gen 2:7 NIV Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Job 34:14-15 NIV If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, 15all humanity would perish together and mankind would return to the dust.

Eccl 12:7 NIV and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
What is impossible for God?

Paradise will be on the New Earth..Rev 2:7, Rev 22:2, Rev 22:14 and Rev 22:19.
The question wasn't "where will it be" but "where is it now"?
 

ATP

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The Barrd said:
I believe that God was with the translators, and that the Bible has all the info I need to know in my own language.
No Barrd, God was with the authors of the 66 books. MAN was with the translators. MAN added the comma where he thought it best fit without taking into consideration what the thief wanted, the word "paradise", and the fact that the body and soul cannot exist without the spirit (breath of life). MAN is flawed. This passage is saying you will be with ME in paradise. How is this possible when Jesus is not even there for 40 days??

Luke 23:43 NIV Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

The Barrd said:
What is impossible for God?
It's not biblical Barrd. Spirit is translated "breath and wind" in Hebrew and Greek.

Are you saying we are floating around the third heaven as "wind" without the breath of life? :blink:

The Barrd said:
The question wasn't "where will it be" but "where is it now"?
In the third heaven. We will be there at the first resurrection.

John 14:1-4 NIV "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."
 

Barrd

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ATP said:
Well, let's take a closer look at these three passages as we should...

(1) Isa 26:20 NIV Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

(2) Matt 17:4 NIV Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

(3) John 14:1-4 NIV "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."

(1) Answer: Isa 26:19-21 NIV But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. 20 Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. 21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer.

As we can see here, Isa 26:19 NIV speaks of the first resurrection with language such as (But your dead will live, their bodies will rise, you who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy, the earth will give birth to her dead.)

As we can see here, Isa 26:20 NIV the rapture follows the first resurrection with language such as (Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while) We also see these rooms spoken of in Matt 17:4 NIV and John 14:1-4 NIV. I will get to that soon.

As we can also see here, Isa 26:21 NIV speaks about the power and justice of heaven being moved and God's wrath being poured out on earth and nonbelievers that remain after rapture with language such as (the LORD coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins, the earth will disclose the blood shed upon her)

(2) Answer: In Matt 17:4 NIV, we see a vision described here. The word shelter here is Greek for a tent, booth, tabernacle, abode, dwelling, mansion or habitation. The Transfiguration is a vision of the first resurrection, rapture and the feast of tabernacles Matt 17:4 NIV. Moses represents those who are dead in Christ. Elijah represents those who are alive at rapture, and Jesus represents himself in Matt 17:2 NIV. Let's take a look at the definition of transfigure to get a better idea...

verb (used with object), transfigured, transfiguring.
1. to change in outward form or appearance; transform.
2. to change so as to glorify or exalt.

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Matt 16:27-28 NIV For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. 28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Matt 17:1-4 NIV After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. 4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

Lev 23:33-34 NIV The LORD said to Moses, 34 "Say to the Israelites: 'On the fifteenth day of the seventh month the LORD's Feast of Tabernacles begins, and it lasts for seven days.

Psalm 27:5 NIV For in the day of trouble he will keep me safe in his dwelling; he will hide me in the shelter of his sacred tent and set me high upon a rock.

Zeph 2:3 NIV Seek the LORD, all you humble of the land, you who do what he commands. Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the LORD's anger.

tabernacle / noun
1. any place or house of worship, especially one designed for a large congregation.
5. a temporary dwelling or shelter, as a tent or hut.
6. a dwelling place.

(3) Answer: John 14:1-4 NIV "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."

As we can see here, this passage also speaks of rooms and speaks of rapture with language such as (I am going there to prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am, you know the way to the place where I am going.") Where is Jesus right now? He resides in the third heaven, and that is where we will be at the first resurrection and rapture. We will be able to dwell in the third heaven by then because we will obtain our resurrected bodies and will be able to dwell in His holiness with Him.

- ATP
Once again, ATP....I've not seen twisting like that since my last high school dance.
 

ATP

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The Barrd said:
Once again, ATP....I've not seen twisting like that since my last high school dance.
What do you see incorrect about it. You need to be more specific if your goal is to correct me.
 

Barrd

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ATP said:
What do you see incorrect about it. You need to be more specific if your goal is to correct me.
Isa 26:20 NIV Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

How you get that that verse has anything at all to do with the verse about God's mansion having many rooms is totally beyond me. There is no connection.

Matt 17:4 NIV Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

I'm also at a total loss to see how this verse is in any way connected to any idea of a rapture. The verses you followed this one with make no sense at all. I'm surprised you didn't throw in the fact that Paul was a tentmaker....

John 14:1-4 NIV "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."

This one also has nothing to do with rooms or shelters....but at least I can see the very vague connection you are trying to draw.
I just don't agree with it. But I won't argue the point with you.

The rest of that post comes off as pure gibberish...
Maybe you're just not explaining yourself well enough?
 

ATP

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The Barrd said:
Isa 26:20 NIV Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

How you get that that verse has anything at all to do with the verse about God's mansion having many rooms is totally beyond me. There is no connection.
What do you think it means.

The Barrd said:
Matt 17:4 NIV Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

I'm also at a total loss to see how this verse is in any way connected to any idea of a rapture. The verses you followed this one with make no sense at all. I'm surprised you didn't throw in the fact that Paul was a tentmaker....
Some think that this verse refers to the Feast of Tabernacles in end times. What do you think it means. Do you believe it's a vision.

Shelter - skéné: a tent
Definition: a tent, booth, tabernacle, abode, dwelling, mansion, habitation.

The Barrd said:
John 14:1-4 NIV "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."

This one also has nothing to do with rooms or shelters....but at least I can see the very vague connection you are trying to draw.
Then what does all these rooms in the Father's house represent? What do you think it means.
 

Barrd

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ATP said:
What do you think it means.
Just what it says, ATP....

Some think that this verse refers to the Feast of Tabernacles in end times. What do you think it means. Do you believe it's a vision.

Shelter - skéné: a tent
Definition: a tent, booth, tabernacle, abode, dwelling, mansion, habitation.
I believe that Moses and Elijah came to commune with Jesus...representing the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah)...and I believe that Peter was so emotional at the sight that he wanted to stay there with these great men...and who can blame him?
I've heard people saying that these two will be back...that they will be the two witnesses prophesied in Revelation....it's possible, I suppose, but I don't think so.

Then what does all these rooms in the Father's house represent? What do you think it means.
I think it means that there will be room enough for all of us, ATP.
 

ATP

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The Barrd said:
Just what it says, ATP....
Well, the commentaries do not seem to agree with each other in Isa 26:20. One says the first resurrection and another says hide in your bedrooms. Sigh.

The Barrd said:
I believe that Moses and Elijah came to commune with Jesus...representing the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah)...and I believe that Peter was so emotional at the sight that he wanted to stay there with these great men...and who can blame him?
I've heard people saying that these two will be back...that they will be the two witnesses prophesied in Revelation....it's possible, I suppose, but I don't think so.

I think it means that there will be room enough for all of us, ATP.
But scripture never mentions us having spirit bodies after death. Spirit is translated "breath" and "wind" in Hebrew and Greek. The breath of life cannot exist without the body. God made man first, not spirit Gen 2:7 NIV. Could it be that it was a vision?

The Barrd said:
I think it means that there will be room enough for all of us, ATP.
But aren't these rooms in the third heaven. We can see Jesus going there, coming back for us and then us go there again with Jesus. From A to B, then back to A.

John 14:1-4 NIV "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."
 

Barrd

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ATP said:
Well, the commentaries do not seem to agree with each other in Isa 26:20. One says the first resurrection and another says hide in your bedrooms. Sigh.
Do you depend on commentaries to tell you what the Word of God says?
No wonder you are confused. Commentaries, my dear man, are some guy's opinion. They can be helpful...but they are not Scripture.

But scripture never mentions us having spirit bodies after death. Spirit is translated "breath" and "wind" in Hebrew and Greek. The breath of life cannot exist without the body. God made man first, not spirit Gen 2:7 NIV. Could it be that it was a vision?
Does it say anywhere that we will need these dirt bodies in our next life? Aren't we supposed to receive a new, glorious body? Doesn't this mortal coil need to put on immortality?
Could it be that that is a vision?

But aren't these rooms in the third heaven. We can see Jesus going there, coming back for us and then us go there again with Jesus. From A to B, then back to A.
Have you ever been to the third Heaven?

John 14:1-4 NIV "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."
He created the entire universe, including whatever life it contains, in just six days.
He went to prepare a place for us around 2000 years ago.
Surely He has finished it by now?
 

ATP

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The Barrd said:
Does it say anywhere that we will need these dirt bodies in our next life? Aren't we supposed to receive a new, glorious body? Doesn't this mortal coil need to put on immortality?
Could it be that that is a vision?
I believe Matt 17:1-13 NIV is a vision of the second coming of Christ. Scripture states that we don't receive our new bodies until the first resurrection 1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV. Besides, doesn't the word "transfiguration" mean "to change within". Isn't that what we'll be doing at the first resurrection..http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/transfigure?s=t

1 Cor 15:51 NIV Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed

1 Cor 15:52 NIV in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The Barrd said:
Have you ever been to the third Heaven?
Scripture says he's going from A to B and then back to A. You can't deny that.
 

keras

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ATP said:
He's coming down from the third heaven into the clouds to rapture us back to the third heaven where we wait until the tribulation is over.

Then the New Jerusalem will come down to the New Earth where we live forever with God.
You have missed out the 1000 year Millennial reign of Jesus.
2 Thess 4:15-17 refers to the Return of Jesus in glory, for His Mill reign.
Realise this: you have construed a theory out of this prophecy that simply isn't there. When the real truth of God's plans for His people is understood, for them to be a light to the nations and proclaiming the Gospel to all peoples and how He will bless all those who stand firm in their faith during the Day of wrath.
THIS is what so much prophecy tells us, not a removal to heaven, to do what?
 

ATP

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keras said:
You have missed out the 1000 year Millennial reign of Jesus.
2 Thess 4:15-17 refers to the Return of Jesus in glory, for His Mill reign.
Then why not just stay on the ground? If we are "caught up" in the clouds, we are no longer on the ground...harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away. Clouds...

Matt 24:29-31 ESV "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thess 4:14-17 NIV For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

There is something that is confusing me however...1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV, 1 Thess 4:14-17 NIV, Rev 20:4-6 NIV, Rev 21:1-3 NIV, first resurrection, rapture, 1,000 years and the new earth. If we are "caught up" then when exactly are we being "brought back down"? I don't understand since the 1,000 year reign precedes the new earth, but Rev 21 comes after Rev 20.

Rev 21:1-3 NIV Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

- ATP
 

keras

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My belief, shared with many I know, is the 'meeting in the clouds' has something to do with the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
We see in Daniel 12:11, there are an extra 30 days added to the 1260 days given in Revelation for the Great Trib. So this is a possibility: Jesus Returns 1260 days after the AC desecrates the Temple, destroys his army and chains him up. All those who have kept their faith are given white clothing and spiritually [or physically?] join Him for the celebration of the commencement of His Millennial reign, Revelation 19:6-9
Then in Daniel 12:12, there is another 45 days mentioned. A total of 1335 days from the desecration. This period may be the cleansing and re dedication of the Temple.
Happy are those who wait and live to see it!
 

ATP

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keras said:
My belief, shared with many I know, is the 'meeting in the clouds' has something to do with the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
We see in Daniel 12:11, there are an extra 30 days added to the 1260 days given in Revelation for the Great Trib. So this is a possibility: Jesus Returns 1260 days after the AC desecrates the Temple, destroys his army and chains him up. All those who have kept their faith are given white clothing and spiritually [or physically?] join Him for the celebration of the commencement of His Millennial reign, Revelation 19:6-9
Then in Daniel 12:12, there is another 45 days mentioned. A total of 1335 days from the desecration. This period may be the cleansing and re dedication of the Temple.
Happy are those who wait and live to see it!
Wait a minute. Does the New Jerusalem come down before or after the 1,000 year reign? Rev 21:1-3 NIV.
 

ATP

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keras said:
After the Millennium, after the Great White Throne judgement.
But won't we be residing in the New Jerusalem when we're caught up before the Millennium? You had said when we're caught up we will be at the wedding feast...

Rev 21:2 NIV I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
 

keras

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ATP said:
But won't we be residing in the New Jerusalem when we're caught up before the Millennium? You had said when we're caught up we will be at the wedding feast...
No. We aren't told where the wedding feast will be. But the New Jerusalem doesn't appear until after the Millennium.

These are questions that cannot really be resolved, so it's really unprofitable to even discuss them. As I have said: my focus is on the forthcoming Day of the Lords wrath. I have written many articles using all the Bible prophesies about that terrible Day. All free at logostelos.info
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
My belief, shared with many I know, is the 'meeting in the clouds' has something to do with the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
Don't believe everything you think.
The truth is not determined by democratic vote. [edited]

keras said:
We see in Daniel 12:11, there are an extra 30 days added to the 1260 days given in Revelation for the Great Trib.
A foolish notion. Jesus said the Great Tribulation will be cut short. Keras says not only does it go the full length of the rest of the one 'seven', it's lengthened by another 30 days.

keras said:
So this is a possibility: Jesus Returns 1260 days after the AC desecrates the Temple, destroys his army and chains him up.
Jesus says no one knows when the Day of the Lord will come: only the Father. Father Keras says he knows when Jesus comes, and never mind his idle speculation on blood moons that have failed and will fail again.
 

ATP

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keras said:
No. We aren't told where the wedding feast will be. But the New Jerusalem doesn't appear until after the Millennium.
I just don't understand the point of being caught up for a few days if we're going right back down for the Millennium. I dunno. It a mystery.