The Wrath of the Lord

[keras]

Marcus demonstrates his vituperative nature again.
Using commentaries as proof for beliefs, is a very shaky means of getting to the truth. Daniel 12:9 tells us that the Prophetic Words are sealed until the time of the end. So unless those comments were written very recently, we must view them with suspicion.

So looking at Ezekiel 11 again, we see in verse 15 that the inhabitants of Jerusalem, that is: the Jewish people, say to the House of Israel, that is: the Northern ten tribes, who have been taken into exile by Assyria: Get you far from the Lord, unto us is this Land given for possession. And it is the Jews who possess it today.
Then in verse 16, The Lord says: Although I have cast them far off, amongst the heathen, it will be a sanctuary for them.
THEN, verse 17-20, is the great promise of the gathering and restoration of all Israel, be they true descendants of Jacob or grafted in. THAT is our promise, our reward and our hope, NOT a rapture to heaven.
How the Lord will achieve this is by 'sending fire' from His storehouse, Deuteronomy 32:34-35, Isaiah 66:15-16, 2 Peter 3:7, that will clear the entire Middle East ready for Ezekiel's prophecy to be fulfilled. Great will be the Day!

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Silly Rabbit, Trix are for kids, and serious Bible study is not for you.

The commentaries show how far off you are. You are not a serious student. You are merely pulling anything out of context which has a glimmer of wording to suit your own purpose, which is advancing your particular, and peculiar thoughts.

Ezekiel 11 is not about the Church inhabiting the earth after Jesus comes.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

So looking at Ezekiel 11 ...THAT is our promise, our reward and our hope, NOT a rapture to heaven.

Unlike your fanciful notions, like misconstruing Isaiah 30:26 to the Day of the Lord when it has nothing to do with that Day's Wrath from God, but rather when God heals the Remnant who do survive the one 'seven',

Ezekiel 11 is not about the Church, and there is a Rapture in the Bible - and we are to comfort each other with this news - 1Th 4:18.

You do the opposite; shame on you.

 

[keras]

Looking at the context of Isaiah 30:25-30 and Ezekiel 11:14-21, it is plain that what is said there has not happened yet. I can only recommend for everyone to read them and to realise the truth of scripture, of God's plans for His people.

The rapture question has been extensively discussed elsewhere on this forum. There is no scripture that says Christians go to heaven, dead or alive and Jesus Himself refutes the idea. John 3:13 However, there will be a spiritual rising of those faithful remaining when Jesus Returns.
But before that, the great gathering; Deut 30:1-10, Psalm 106:47, Isaiah 30:29, Isaiah 49:8:13, Isaiah 66:18, Jer 30:18-22, Jer 31:7-9, Jer 50:4-5, Ezekiel 11:17, Ezekiel 20:34-38, Hosea 11:10-11, Amos 9:13-15, Zeph 3:20, Zech 10:8-12, of all the Lord's righteous believers into their heritage of the Holy Land. The Lord promises great blessings to them, it will be a time of peace and prosperity, take comfort from these promises; Psalm 60:1-5, Isaiah 32:15-20, Isaiah 49:8, Isa 58:11-12, Jer 23:3-4, Ezekiel 36:8-18, Hosea 2:23, Psalm 107:1-3, Psalm 147:14

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Looking at the context of Isaiah 30:25-30 and Ezekiel 11:14-21, it is plain that what is said there has not happened yet. I can only recommend for everyone to read them and to realise the truth of scripture, of God's plans for His people.

Fallacy in Argument: Appeal to Democracy. The individual does not determine the truth. Nor does a majority of individuals determine the truth.

Isaiah 30:26 is that it is not related at all the Day of the Lord's Wrath. It says so in that very verse that the sun shines brightly on the Day God heals His people.
Ezekiel 11 concerns natural Israel, not the Church. It can be applied to today, but I actually think it might apply to the future Jewish Remnant in Israel in the Millennium.

There is no scripture that says Christians go to heaven, dead or alive and Jesus Himself refutes the idea.

Oh really? Jesus refutes that idea? Where!

In John 14:2-3 Jesus says He will take us to where He is going to go: i.e., Heaven, specifically the "third Heaven" in the presence of God the Father.
In Revelation 7:9-17, the Church is set before God the Father in Heaven.

But before that, the great gathering; Deut 30:1-10, Psalm 106:47, Isaiah 30:29, Isaiah 49:8:13, Isaiah 66:18, Jer 30:18-22, Jer 31:7-9, Jer 50:4-5, Ezekiel 11:17, Ezekiel 20:34-38, Hosea 11:10-11, Amos 9:13-15, Zeph 3:20, Zech 10:8-12, of all the Lord's righteous believers into their heritage of the Holy Land. The Lord promises great blessings to them, it will be a time of peace and prosperity, take comfort from these promises; Psalm 60:1-5, Isaiah 32:15-20, Isaiah 49:8, Isa 58:11-12, Jer 23:3-4, Ezekiel 36:8-18, Hosea 2:23, Psalm 107:1-3, Psalm 147:14

Nonsense. More misapplication of these verses as to whom they are intended. You continually take OT prophecy for natural Israel and in error, assign it to the Church.

This is more mish-mash throwing verses around out of context hoping something sticks all so you can say "This means that and that means this" and so you change the Bible to advance your own queer ideas of how it's all supposed to shape out.

 

[keras]

Marcus said: Oh really? Jesus refutes that idea? Where!

In John 14:2-3 Jesus says He will take us to where He is going to go: i.e., Heaven, specifically the "third Heaven" in the presence of God the Father.
In Revelation 7:9-17, the Church is set before God the Father in Heaven. Quote.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again ....so that where I am you may be also.
​1/ Jesus prepares a place for His people. No mention of where that place is, could be heaven or earth. What does other scriptures say? ON EARTH; Deut 30:1-10, Psalm 106:47, Isaiah 30:29, Isaiah 49:8:13, Isaiah 66:18, Jer 30:18-22, Jer 31:7-9, Jer 50:4-5, Ezekiel 11:17, Ezekiel 20:34-38, Hosea 11:10-11, Amos 9:13-15, Zeph 3:20, Zech 10:8-12 and many other prophesies.

2/ I will come again; back to earth, there is no verse saying the Lord will take His people to heaven. Jesus says: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven. John 3:13

3/ Revelation 7 all takes place ON EARTH, as verses 1-3 so clearly confirm.

4/ Israel IS the Church. Romans 9:8, Ephesians 2:11-18

Marcus, I suggest you seriously reconsider your beliefs, as you are proved to be in error with all your posts. The information about God's plans for His people is found in all the prophesies and belief of theories and ideas that are not supported by scripture, leaves you in the dark about what will happen.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Out of context again.

When Jesus returns from where He is now, He will have completed building a place for us: the many rooms in His Father's house - which is in Heaven.

He will return on the Day of the Lord, and gather up the few remaining Elect from all over the earth after the Great Tribulation decimated our number. We are lifted up into the clouds to meet Jesus who comes on those clouds with the Saints He has resurrected from Paradise, their place of rest.

That Great Multitude, from every people, language, nation, and tongue then is presented in Revelation 7:9-17 before the Father in Heaven - His "barn" as it were. And just as the Harvest is taken up before Wrath in the parallel, detailed account of the one 'seven' in Revelation chapter 14, so too in the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (minus 11:1-13) does God's Wrath follow the Day of the Lord sixth SeL when the seventh Seal is broken, and the Scroll is opened to reveal the seven Trumpets.

We are "taken" up to the barn of Heaven receive our inheritance before the wicked are burned in the field of this world.

We are not to suffer Wrath as Paul says, nor does Jesus usher us to a protective enclave as He does the Remnant Jews destined to inherit the Millennium, when Jesus will be a present reality among them and we will rule the earth in God's perfect peace - from our abode in Heaven and from His camp at Jerusalem.

So in the broad, holistic view of the major linear narratives, your view dries up to a shrivel, just as your credibility on all things CME has done when we examine your misuse of OT prophecy.

 

[keras]

When Jesus returns from where He is now, He will have completed building a place for us: the many rooms in His Father's house - which is in Heaven.

He will return on the Day of the Lord, and gather up the few remaining Elect from all over the earth after the Great Tribulation decimated our number. We are lifted up into the clouds to meet Jesus who comes on those clouds with the Saints He has resurrected from Paradise, their place of rest.

That Great Multitude, from every people, language, nation, and tongue then is presented in Revelation 7:9-17 before the Father in Heaven - His "barn" as it were. And just as the Harvest is taken up before Wrath in the parallel, detailed account of the one 'seven' in Revelation chapter 14, so too in the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (minus 11:1-13) does God's Wrath follow the Day of the Lord sixth SeL when the seventh Seal is broken, and the Scroll is opened to reveal the seven Trumpets.

We are "taken" up to the barn of Heaven receive our inheritance before the wicked are burned in the field of this world.

We are not to suffer Wrath as Paul says, nor does Jesus usher us to a protective enclave as He does the Remnant Jews destined to inherit the Millennium, when Jesus will be a present reality among them and we will rule the earth in God's perfect peace - from our abode in Heaven and from His camp at Jerusalem.

You have Jesus coming to gather the few remaining elect after the Great Trib. You say they are the 'vast multitude' of Rev 7. Then, the wrath of God follows?
This sequence doesn't fit how it is in the Bible.

You say the elect stay in heaven during the Millennium. That is pure conjecture, not Biblical. Psalm 37:9

We are not appointed to wrath. Quite right, but how we avoid His wrath is not removal but protection. I have 26 verses proving this. Isaiah 43:2

You say there will be no CME. Explain then, what it is when 'the sun shines 7 times brighter'. How will the moon shine as bright as the sun. How will it glow blood red?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

You say the elect stay in heaven during the Millennium. That is pure conjecture, not Biblical. Psalm 37:9

"This means that and that means this," how foolishness overcomes good exegesis in eschatology.

I rail against the foolishness of those who take the Bible and attempt to make it say what they want to say. Usually by a coincidence of words, they will make some connection totally devoid of any consideration of:

1. Applicability. and the second biggest reason:
2. Context

Psalm 37:9 is a good example. Just because it uses two words, inherit, and land, now supposedly, despite everything else in prophecy, this one verse determines our eternal home. Nonsense. Nothing in the entire psalm David wrote is pointedly eschatological. It is the wildest stretch of the imagination to impute that David is even talking about the Church: a very rare subject in the OT which is largely written to the Jews. Rather, the theme of Psalm 37 is the difference between faithful and wicked people's outcomes, thus excoriating the listener to the song to be good, for goodness' sake. His audience? Those living at the time, but the message resounds through the ages.

Here is a guide to good exegesis for any passage a good student wants to study:

General Rules of Interpretation / questions to ask to discern meaning:

• Who is speaking? The author (none of the Old Testament books have a definite author and some of the New Testament as well) is not always the speaker. At times, God’s own Voice; His Voice when speaking through the prophets; and the Word of God as delivered by an Angel / Man in Linen is the speaker.

• Who is the intended audience? What is said by a Levite Priest has different applicability when directed at the pagan nations surrounding Israel than it would to the nation of Israel. (See the Zondervan study notes to Psalm 46:1-10)

• What is the context of the passage? How does the verse fit in with it? If symbolic, as with trees, how does the verse fit within the context of Scripture where trees denote nations/lineages?

• What are the customs and culture of the time the passage was written? Does the cultural mores of a time dictate the confines under which a verse can be said to be true? Does knowing that sheep herders and women were not considered reliable witnesses in a Jewish Court in the first century reflect on God’s wisdom to reveal His Son’s birth and resurrection and His characterization of Man’s wisdom as folly? (How would a Hebrew sheep herder before Christ describe a battle tank?)

• What is the original language? Is there more than one possible translation from the Hebrew to the English as is often the case? Shades of meaning do not necessarily contradict an interpretation, but may be thought of as adding layers of meaning to enrich a word. What is the voice and mood in the Greek for a verb, or the case for a noun? Considering these will narrow the meaning or enlarge the possible meanings with multiple shades.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

You say there will be no CME. Explain then, what it is when 'the sun shines 7 times brighter'. How will the moon shine as bright as the sun. How will it glow blood red?

First of all, I won't answer a fool in his foolishness. It is he who says Isaiah 30:26 means a "coronal mass ejection" (CME) will strike the earth on the Day of the Lord because this verse has the sun shining seven times brighter - when God heals His people. This is keras' own peculiar, queer interpretation which he holds so dearly. He believes is so fervently, he believes it to be true. And despite numerous attempts to knock some sense into keras, he still goes on and on about this like he has some nugget of truth. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

A more classical "this means that and that means this" topsy-turvy interpretation you'd be hard pressed to find anywhere else.

1. He likens shining more brightly to flames of fire shooting out and scorching the earth.
2. He pegs this event to the Day of the Lord's Wrath, which is so prevalent in the OT for the Jews (who "miss" Jesus the first time around) when the text says the sun shines brighter when God heals the bruise He has inflicted (through His Wrath).

Isaiah 30:23 Then He will give you rain for the seed which you will sow in the ground, and bread from the yield of the ground, and it will be rich and plenteous; on that day your livestock will graze in a roomy pasture. 24 Also the oxen and the donkeys which work the ground will eat salted fodder, which has been winnowed with shovel and fork. 25 On every lofty mountain and on every high hill there will be streams running with water on the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall. 26 The light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven days, on the day the Lord binds up the fracture of His people and heals the bruise He has inflicted.

So by the language and the context (points #5 and #3 above) no one ought ever misconstrue Isaiah 30:26 as meaning a CME will strike the earth on the Day of the Lord.

In fact, the whole context of the passage within which we find verse 26 indicates that God is providing for substance, rain (for plants, so important in agriculture), food for the animals, and streams (flowing water was considered "living" or drinkable water in opposition to "dead", stagnant pools), and finally light.

Now let's look at another aspect of Isaiah 30:26 - figurative hyperbole, point #4.

The Day of the Lord passages for natural Israel involve darkness. (There are no less than FOUR Israels in the Bible: the man, the tribes or natural born, the land, and spiritual component as revealed in the NT - it is important not to assign the wrong label as keras does - not all positive references to "Israel" involve the spiritual component of the Church.)

ISA 13:9 See, the day of the LORD is coming
--a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger--
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
ISA 13:10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.

In Isaiah chapter 13, Isaiah pegs the sun being darkened and the moon not giving its light to the Day of the Lord. It is explicitly named. Other prophets buttress the aspect of darkness foretelling doom for the Day of the Lord to Israel, because for the most part, natural borne Israel does not believe in Jesus.

What Isaiah is doing here in chapter 30 is contrasting the doom and gloom which does come with the Day of the Lord's Wrath with its opposite when He again turns His face to the surviving Remnant Jews whom He has bruised: sunshine.

Being seven times brighter is a poetic figure of speech used by ancient story-tellers in Isaiah's culture. It's like saying the "sun stood still in the sky" for describing a day that seemed to go on forever. To say the sun literally shines seven (a holy number) times brighter does not mean the people are going to be blinded by the light, or that intense heat follows. It means that after a time of darkness, catastrophe and war, the storm will end and the sun will shine through. It is hyperbole, and it is meant to be in contrast.

Do not follow the pied piper of CME.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

You have Jesus coming to gather the few remaining elect after the Great Trib. You say they are the 'vast multitude' of Rev 7. Then, the wrath of God follows?
This sequence doesn't fit how it is in the Bible.

You have no credibility on determining the "sequence" of the Bible. That is a term you have misappropriated from me. Let's look at the Sequence-of-Events in the Bible.

The Olivet Discourse

The keystone for the Sequence of Events is Jesus’ prophetic Olivet Discourse. This passage is the fifth major discourse of the book of Matthew as it is constructed. This discourse also follows parallel construction with a broad overview beginning with Jesus’ answer to the disciple’s question at Mt 24:4 leading to the “end” at verse 14. A detailed parallel account follows which gets to the same “end,” namely the gathering of the Elect. The detailed parallel portion of the Olivet Discourse, covering the final end of the Church Age, reveals five specific and unique events which are the bridge between the one ‘seven’ of the book of Daniel and the chronology of the Seals/Trumpets in the book of Revelation.

Mt 24:15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22 "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Messiah!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the wilderness,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 "Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Analysis from a sequence of events point of view:
v. 15 – abomination (of) desolation standing in the Holy Place.
v. 16 – prayer for those in Judea (future Remnant)
v. 17 – warning to those in Judea
v. 18 – warning to those in Judea
v. 19 – descriptive
v. 20 – warning prayer for those in Judea
v. 21 – “unequaled” great tribulation
v. 22 – it is shortened for the sake of the Elect
v. 23 – warning to the Elect
v. 24 – warning to the Elect
v. 25 – declaration of prophetic truth
v. 26 – warning to the Elect
v. 27 – description of Jesus’ parousia (Greek for “coming”)
v. 28 – cryptic message (dealing with the nature of the Rapture)
v. 29 – immediately after great tribulation – (sequencing) – sun/moon/star event
v. 30 – sign of Son of Man
– Son of Man coming on the clouds
v. 31 – gathering of the Elect from the earth.

Dealing only with events; descriptive verses, simple declarations, various warnings and prayers are dropped. This distills the passage down to the actions which will happen. Taking just the simplest elements does not eliminate some of the other aspects… it’s just that they are not germane to the main plot in constructing the basic framework for a singular chronology. However, some important elements can later be woven into the sequence of events to cover some of the side issues which are present in the end-times, like concerning “those in Judea.” The order of events as Jesus listed the main ones are:

• v. 15 Midpoint Abomination, which adds: standing in the “Holy Place”
• v. 21 Great Tribulation, which is shortened by the:
• v. 29 Sun/moon/star event, which heralds the Day of the Lord
• v. 30 Sign of the Son of Man
• v. 30 The Son of Man coming on the clouds
• v. 31 Gathering Elect from the clouds

This linear narrative has five, important, specific and unique events in their proscribed order with the added benefit of having joining time stamps in two of them. This passage is the Keystone Passage for the Sequence of Events because it allows the harmonization of Daniel’s one ‘seven’ to the broad overview of the end-times in Revelation with the Seal/Scroll chronology.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The Sequence-of-Events in the Bible, from the Major Linear Narratives:

Daniel 9:27

Another major, prophetic, linear narrative which should be foundational for anyone's eschatology is Daniel 9:26-27. Looking only at the second verse for the moment is the one ‘seven’ which has yet to be fulfilled (despite some eschatological schools’ opinions to the contrary).

He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

The word “confirm” comes to us from the King James, and translators for 400 years have stuck with an obsolete meaning; “confirm” has too much positive connotation to accurately portray how the Hebrew word, “gabar” is being used. While as a verb, gabar simply means “to prevail,” but as stated, “forced” best fits the action. The inflected verb is in the third person so it includes a pronoun and that reverts, according to Hebrew grammar, to the last person mentioned: in this case, the “ruler who will come.”

Likewise, in the second sentence up to the prepositional phrase “…until the end…” the original Hebrew is extremely difficult reading literally: “on wing – abominations – desolation.” The reader should understand that all the other words (thirteen in this case versus four in the Hebrew) are added in translation. This difficult passage reminds me of another passage in Daniel where God writes: “MENE, MENE, TEKEL, PARSIN.” These simple words were undecipherable by the wisest of Belshazzar’s advisors.

Widely accepted as “abomination of desolation,” the word “kanap,” “wing,” has led to various interpretations. The NIV here concludes it is in the Temple, but that blends the Olivet Discourse’s reference to the Holy Place with Paul’s 2nd Thessalonians’ chapter 2. In an earlier edition, the NIV stated the abomination was placed in a “wing” of the Temple, but the Temple doesn’t have “wings” like the White House. Both editions of the NIV lose the meaning of “wing.” The King James uses the word figuratively, which is allowed in the picture language of Hebrew: “overshadowing.” “Wings” have multiple figurative meanings, like “power” as well. I prefer yet another figurative use for wing which matches another Daniel account about what I think is the same timeframe in Daniel 11:45-12:1 where the King of the North rushes out like a flood, i.e.: “quickly.”

Blending in Daniel 11:45, which matches Luke 21:20 for a moment, the King of the North encamps around Jerusalem with his army. This means that during a time of “peace,” he has invaded the Holy Land. Rather than an overshadowing of abominations, this midpoint development happens rapidly when overwhelming force literally floods the land and brings the ruler who will come to the apex of his meteoric rise: being crowned as a god in the Temple and presented with a talking image of himself.

The breakdown of Daniel 9:27 then centers around three actions covered within it:
• Covenant with many prevailed by the (Roman) ruler who will come.
• Midpoint Abomination
• End of one ‘seven’ with desolations poured out on the desolator.

Now, between the Olivet Discourse and Daniel, the easy match, provided by Jesus and referencing Daniel, is the midpoint abomination. Since the Great Tribulation is shortened, (literally, amputated in the Greek as in to “dock” an animal’s tail) it's fairly easy to see that the Sun/moon/star event comes well before the end, since lengthening the Great Tribulation to the rest of the one ‘seven’ begs the question as to how Christians could live without substance while being literally hunted down; and so, I'll sequence it that way.

• Covenant with many prevailed by the Roman ruler who will come.
• Midpoint Abomination
• Great Tribulation
• Sun/moon/star event.
• Sign of the Son of Man
• The Son of Man coming on the clouds
• Gathering Elect from the clouds
• End of one seven with desolations poured out on the Roman desolator.

Let's include Luke's take in chapter 21. He has a slightly different sequence:

• Armies surround Jerusalem
• Great Tribulation
• Signs in the Sun, moon, and stars
• Stand up: Redemption

Between the middle two events, we have some different descriptions.

As the anti-Christ has to arrive at Jerusalem before being presented with the talking image of himself in the Temple, the armies surrounding Jerusalem is on the eve of the midpoint abomination. This would align the Ezekiel invasion of Israel to this movement of troops, i.e., the anti-Christ is the one who breaks the peace treaty he forced upon Israel. By dismantling her defenses (because she used a nuke?) he was finally able to conquer
this thorn in his side...

The stand up / Redemption is the Gathering of the Elect. So putting the lists together brings:

• Covenant with many prevailed by the Roman ruler who will come
• Armies surround Jerusalem
• Midpoint Abomination
• Great Tribulation
• Sun/moon/star event
• Sign of the Son of Man
• The Son of Man coming on the clouds
• Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds
• End of one seven with desolations poured out on the Roman desolator

Now to work up to Revelations' parallel accounts.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The Sequence-of-Events in the Major Linear Narratives - an analysis leading to a holistic Sequence-of-Events.

The first real match of a specific and unique event we have is with the sixth Seal, so I'm going to pick up the action there in the Seal/Scroll chronology of chapters 4 through 11 (minus the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses found in 11:1-13) and take it to the end. Rather than replicate whole chapters starting with the sixth Seal, only an outline form of events will be presented. This is to simplify the action and concentrate on the big items first; details are important for further integration, but first the rough framework needs to be in place.

• Rev 6:12-13 - Sun/moon/star sign
• Rev 6:14 - Scrolling of the sky
• Rev 7:4-8 - “Mustering” the 144,000
• Rev 7:9-17 - Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation
• Rev 8:1 - Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal
• Rev 8:7 - First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned
• Rev 8:8 - Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood
• Rev 8:10 - Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter
• Rev 8:12 - Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck
• Rev 9:1-11 - Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment
• Rev 9:13-21 - Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3 of man killed
• Rev 10:1-4/Rev 11:15 - Seventh Trumpet (no desolation mentioned)
• Rev 11:19 - Earthquake

There is an obvious match with the Sun/moon/star sign which Jesus gave us in the Olivet Discourse. This is the only link of the seven Seals in Revelation to the one ‘seven’ in Daniel. Most commentators link the Seals to the one ‘seven’ on a one-to-one basis. However, the aspect of the Great Tribulation being shortened as one would dock an animal’s tail suggests its length as being shorter than a year and a half. So linking the Seals one-to-one to the one ‘seven’ is an assumption; indeed, I think the first four Seals, as Spirits at work in the world (Zec 6:5), are already preparing the world for the rapid changes which come about in the one ‘seven.’

I am going to link the scrolling of the sky to the sign of the Son of Man. The only other prophetic bit which marries Rev 6:14 is Isaiah 34:4. Indeed, while it can be said to be the source for John’s writing by some, it comes from a passage referencing the Day of the Lord’s vengeance – which can be referred back to Isaiah 61:2 with Jesus’ Second Advent. The scrolling of the sky also completes a series of opposites in the Day of the Lord, or as Zechariah 14:7 states: “in the evening, it will be light.”

Sequencing the 144,000 as mustering is in reference to another passage in Isaiah 13:3/5. Here, it comes before the arrival of the Elect's gathering verified by an Elder as being out of the Great Tribulation. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus said that the Great Tribulation came right before the sign of the Day of the Lord: the sun/moon/star event. So, the sixth Seal sun/moon/star event comes after the Great Tribulation. That Gathering of the Elect could come before or after the 144,000, but it certainly comes before their arrival as the Great Multitude (owing to the fact that the Dead in Christ could number in the billions). Putting the 144,000's Mustering first before the Gathering of the Elect would seem to be an assumption at this point; but another account will prove that sequence order to be correct.

First, aligning the two lists around shared the sun/moon/star event means most of Revelation chapters 6-11 happen afterward (in the latter part of the sequence of events compiled so far). Secondly, the 144,000 are interjected between Jesus’ arrival and the gathering of the Elect. Finally, the gathering of the Elect results in their being delivered to the “barn” of Heaven reveals this sequence of events:

• Covenant with many prevailed by the Roman ruler who will come
• Armies surround Jerusalem
• Midpoint Abomination
• Great Tribulation
• Sun/moon/star event
• Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man
• Mustering the 144,000
• The Son of Man coming on the clouds
• Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds
• Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation
• Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal
• First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned
• Second Trumpet - 1/3rd of sea to blood
• Third Trumpet - 1/3rd of water bitter
• Fourth Trumpet - 1/3rd of light struck
• Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment
• Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3rd of man killed
• Seventh Trumpet - end with desolations poured out on the Roman desolator
• Earthquake

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Sequence-of-Events Analysis integrating the Major Linear Narratives around specific and unique events.

Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive)

Now let's look at the parallel account with Revelation of chapters 13-16 inclusive, which I call the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ. I think the whole of the one 'seven' is detailed here to give us some added information which is missing from other accounts, mainly the seventh Trumpet, but also about the 144,000 and about the nature of the Day of the Lord and some things peculiar to the sixth Seal which lead to much confusion about the Wrath of God first mentioned in writing in Revelation chapter 6.

In outline form from the four chapters of Revelation 13 through 16 here are the “events:”

• The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea”
.....o Worship of the beast (rebellion against God)
• Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven'
.....o He wages war against the Saints
.....o We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15)
• Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky'
• Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination
• Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever for the Church in terms of persecution
• 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion
• 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
• Son of Man coming on the clouds
• Harvest from the clouds
• Avenging Angels - Blood and Fire
• First Bowl - Sores on Man
• Second Bowl - All sea to blood
• Third Bowl - All water to blood
• Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
• Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
• Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
• Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake

Working backwards at first, in sequencing this account to the previous compilation, the Bowl Judgments come last - it says so in the Harvest account in chapter 15. Previously the seventh Trumpet announcement was broken off in the previous Seal/Scroll chronology in Revelation chapter 10 when John is told not to write and only later summed up with no details of the desolations it ensues being revealed whatsoever. So now God shows to John what he didn't write about in the Seal/Scroll chronology: the desolations of the third Woe. They are all of the first "thirds" Trumpet Judgments but now - they're total. The depth of God’s Wrath is displayed in the third Woe.

Notice that the end comes with an earth-changing Great earthquake. This marries what chapter 11 had at its end and in addition, what concludes the sidebar account of Revelation 11:1-13. There are parallel accounts within the book of Revelation because there is so much action taking place, and one of the clues that these take place is repeated events. This is also the reason the book of Revelation is so hard to read when read like a novel; the action seems to go back and forth.

So the easiest sequencing of all is to preserve the finality of the Bowl Judgments. They complete the third Woe of the seventh Trumpet. The Bowl Judgments can be viewed as the revealed third Woe; they follow the seventh Trumpet.

• Seventh Trumpet
.....o First Bowl - Sores on Man
.....o Second Bowl - All sea to blood
.....o Third Bowl - All water to blood
.....o Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
.....o Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
.....o Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
.......... Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss.
.....o Seventh Bowl

Starting at the beginning of Revelation chapters 13 through 16 now, the beast of a nation rises before the beast of a man is given authority to rule for 42 months doing pretty much as he pleases without interference. This comes before the midpoint abomination now revealed as the erection of the talking image of the same anti-Christ by the false prophet who is introduced as being the source for “fire falling from the sky” which could be an apt description of a nuclear bomb explosion. That seminal event worthy of mention happens during the first half of the one ‘seven’ and before the midpoint abomination as well. The first four main bullet points precede the midpoint abomination and are put first. They explain the source for the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribulation and are a match.

Next, in response to the events of the antagonists, in Revelation chapters 14, the 144,000 are mustered before the Harvest. The assumption provided in the Seal/Scroll account combined with the Olivet Discourse is validated by the order given here. This is often the case; one account will allow alternate interpretations. Only when referenced against another account, whether multiple or parallel, is an additional fact provided which clears up the ambiguity.

In the sixth Seal, John only hears the number, here we see them and we are given additional information about the 144,000. One, the Lord is standing on Mount Zion. Two, the 144,000 are assembled on Mount Zion. Three, they never leave Jesus' side, so wherever Jesus goes, so goes His Army. These are crack troops, and they help tramp out the Wrath of God as portrayed in Joel on the Day of the Lord. (Jesus' Bride is safe at home in Heaven with the Father as all good Grooms would love and protect their Bride.)

The Pre-Trib and Post-Trib schools of eschatology insist that Jesus never touches down on the earth prior to gathering the Elect from the clouds. That reading from First and Second Thessalonians takes the vision of Christ coming on the clouds as a singular event. However, Paul can omit an event and not violate the overall sequence of events.

Jesus’ return was foretold at His Ascension and in Acts 1:11, we are told that He will return as He went up. Therefore, I expect Jesus will part the night sky with the scrolling of the sky to reveal the light of Heaven, and descending upon the clouds, will touch down on the Mount of Olives, splitting it in two as described in Zechariah 14:4. This causes the second earthquake of the sixth Seal (v.14) and the twin hills are the Mount Zion of Revelation chapter 14.

The 3 Angels come before the end, just like Jesus said in Mt 24:14; the Church cannot fulfill the Great Commission. Also too, their warning to the wicked that God is coming in Wrath has them hiding in the caves in the sixth Seal before Jesus actually comes to Harvest the Elect. This explains the first writing of “wrath” in the book of Revelation at 6:16 and why the wicked, who have no discernment of God’s Plan, so plainly know it is coming nevertheless: they’re told explicitly and they got the message.

The imagery of “one like the son of man” is the third time Jesus is depicted on the clouds of Heaven gathering the Elect in the Bible. First foretold in the Olivet Discourse, (and the second time some years later is included in Paul’s very first letter to the Churches: 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17) this third mention by John matches previous two bullet points showing Jesus coming on the clouds and gathering the Elect. Both accounts intersect and will be combined on this common event.

The final portion of chapter 14 has two avenging Angels. The first supplies the Blood present on the Day of the Lord Wrath. The second has charge of the fire. Fire is another component of Old Testament Day of the Lord Wrath and it is the first element of God’s Wrath from the Trumpets. As this Wrath is to only burn a “third” of the Earth, it is “managed.” The Angel supplying Blood literally fills the Land around the “City.”

Knowing there are two battles said to be fought on the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament, one around Jerusalem and the other in the Valley of Decision, which scholars link to the Valley of Jehoshaphat around Bethlehem to the south, the city would then translate to Jerusalem, and the Land would be Israel. As blood both defiles and redeems, (a paradox preserved in the dual meaning for a single verb in the Hebrew) God is literally wreaking desolation and in turn, washing the Holy Land of the sin that had been present.

The aspect having Redemption being immediately followed by Wrath in a reading of Revelation chapter 14 follows the example in the broad overview of the end in the previous Seal/Scroll chronology of chapters 4-11. There, the first Trumpet of God’s Wrath follows within an hour of the Great Multitude arriving in Heaven. This aspect of Rescue/Wrath which emerges in both accounts marries as well with the descriptive verse of this time from Jesus in the Olivet Discourse with the example of Noah and Lot who were both rescued and then immediately God’s Wrath rained down.

This distinction marks this eschatology as what is commonly called: Pre-Wrath.

The aspect of Rescue/Wrath both fall on the Day of the Lord. So, I'm going to indent those events which I think occur with the Day of the Lord starting with the Sun/moon/star event and call the whole series the "Day of the Lord." The two-fold nature of this day can be seen in prophecy with one of foreboding and clouds, while the other half is full of fire, smoke and blood. Those visions can be played out in literally two days just like Rosh ha-Shanah is a two-day Holy Day. Rosh ha-Shanah starts with the Last Trumpet, and begins a Festival of Trumpets. That figurative analogy is seen here literally.

So with that bit of logic, let's put the the sequence from Rev 13-16 together with the previously compiled sequence around their common points of specific and unique events:

• The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
.....o Worship of the beast (rebellion against God)
• Covenant with many prevailed by the Roman ruler who will come.
• Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
.....o He wages war against the Saints.
.....o We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15)
.....o Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
• Armies surround Jerusalem.
• Midpoint Abomination Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ
.....o Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever for the Church in terms of persecution.
.....o Great Tribulation.
• Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD.
.....o Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man
.....o Jesus touches down upon the earth.
.....o Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
.....o 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
.....o Son of Man coming on the clouds.
.....o Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds.
.....o Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.
.....o Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal.
.....o First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned
.......... Avenging Angels – supplying Blood and managing the Fire.
• Second Trumpet - 1/3rd of sea to blood
• Third Trumpet - 1/3rd of water bitter
• Fourth Trumpet - 1/3rd of light struck
• Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment.
• Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3rd of man killed
• Seventh Trumpet
.....o First Bowl - Sores on Man
.....o Second Bowl - All sea to blood
.....o Third Bowl - All water to blood
.....o Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
.....o Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
.....o Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
.......... Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss.
.....o Seventh Bowl –
.......... end with desolations poured out on the Roman desolator
.......... Earth changing earthquake.

Notice that every sequence order from each original list remains intact! No shuffling of facts is required. While students of other eschatologies might balk at how I define meaning for various words (confirm, midpoint abomination, Elect, etc.) deep interpretation is not required to blend Scripture –as it is worded– into this sequence of events. The fact that each individual account’s sequence remains intact, then verifies the ordering of the whole.

 

[keras]

A very good effort, Marcus, I agree with a lot of what you say, its only really what the next prophesied event will be, where you miss out on the truth.

Many prophesies say how the Lord will suddenly send His fiery wrath upon His enemies. Onto a world that is 'as in the days of Noah'. A shocking devastation that will set the scene for the establishment of a One World Govt, but also enable the Lord's righteous people to go and live in the Holy Land. This is the scenario that is extensively prophesied and the rest of the end time events, as you detail, will follow.
Isaiah 42:13-15 tells us the Lord will take action and then in verses 16-20, says how those believers who have not understood the truth, will be led along paths they did not know, to where all of the Lord's people will live, being at last how the Lord always intended. Isaiah 42:6-12
That is our promise and the fulfillment of our destiny as Christian believers. The Lord's people, all who believe in Him will live in peace and prosperity, as is so beautifully prophesied in Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 35, Jeremiah 31, Ezekiel 36 and many other wonderful descriptions of how it will be. We WILL see it, great will be the Day!

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

its only really what the next prophesied event will be, where you miss out on the truth.

I didn't "miss it". The truth is in the Bible, not what you say.

The one 'seven' has not yet begun.

We do have the basis for the final conflict though: the "War on Terrorism" which pits "North" versus "South".
We do have the rapid influx of "clay" "mixing" with "iron". Welcome to the end of the Roman Empire... "You are here" => (the toes).
We do have the whole world lining up against Christianity as the only religion you can persecute openly and be politically correct.

Your "bloodmoon" expectations came up nil; your CME prediction is all wet. So before you tell me what I missed, maybe you ought to try to get something right.

 

[ATP]

Rapture and first resurrection scripture....

Rev 7:9-17 NIV After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying: “Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!” 13Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” 14I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. 16‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat. 17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’ ”

 

[keras]

The one 'seven' has not yet begun.

Your "bloodmoon" expectations came up nil; your CME prediction is all wet. So before you tell me what I missed, maybe you ought to try to get something right.

I have never said the 70th week of Daniel is the next prophesied event.
I have always said the 'blood moon tetrads' were of no prophetic significance.

I do not see how we can continue any sensible discussion, while you simply fail to read what I write. Let alone what the prophets wrote!

ATP, where exactly is the 'rapture to heaven' in Revelation 7? Read carefully Rev 7:1-3, on earth, is where this happens, proved by Rev 14:1

 

[ATP]

ATP, where exactly is the 'rapture to heaven' in Revelation 7? Read carefully Rev 7:1-3, on earth, is where this happens, proved by Rev 14:1

I quoted verse 9-17, looks to me there already in heaven. Palm branches, white robes...

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Exactly.

Revelation 7:9-17 is in Heaven. While John is shown what transcribes elsewhere at times, his location in Heaven does not change from the setting once he is taken up from Rev 4:1 and his place is as he describes in detail in chapters four and five. He is taken to other realms in the spiritual plane of Heaven (Rev 17:3), but there be no need for him to go to earth for God, who is omnipresent, to present John with the pictures of what takes place on the earth.