The Wrath of the Lord

[ATP]

Exactly.

Revelation 7:9-17 is in Heaven. While John is shown what transcribes elsewhere at times, his location in Heaven does not change from the setting once he is taken up from Rev 4:1 and his place is as he describes in detail in chapters four and five. He is taken to other realms in the spiritual plane of Heaven (Rev 17:3), but there be no need for him to go to earth for God, who is omnipresent, to present John with the pictures of what takes place on the earth.

Just so I'm clear, Rev 7:1-8 NIV takes place on earth, and Rev 7:9-17 NIV takes place in heaven, correct?

So if the 5 seals are birth pains, and the 1st trumpet is the beginning of God's wrath, then rapture HAS to be in Rev 7:9-17 NIV.

Rapture is after birth pains and before God's wrath. Is this your conclusion also? - ATP

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Just so I'm clear, Rev 7:1-8 NIV takes place on earth, and Rev 7:9-17 NIV takes place in heaven, correct?

So if the 5 seals are birth pains, and the 1st trumpet is the beginning of God's wrath, then rapture HAS to be in Rev 7:9-17 NIV.

Rapture is after birth pains and before God's wrath. Is this your conclusion also? - ATP

Agreed on all points.

My point is that while Rev 7:1-8 are on earth, Jesus shows John that while he is in Heaven, still in the presence of the Father. As God has created our reality, He has the ability to control it to suit His Plan. Miracles are when God acts upon what He has created in a way which we see as an exception to the rule on how things act, like when water piles up on itself. I do not doubt God's ability to open a window through which John can see what He wants to present to him.

 

[keras]

I quoted verse 9-17, looks to me there already in heaven. Palm branches, white robes...

It may look like the 'vast multitude from every tribe, race and language' are in heaven, but the text does not say that. It is only those whose wishful thinking demands a rapture, who believe that idea. There is no indication of a change of venue in Rev 7.
The truth of where all this takes place is reiterated in Rev 14:1-2, where Jesus stands on Mt Zion with the 144,000 and they heard a great sound from heaven....
The earthly throne of God is on the Temple Mount and the Shekinah Glory of God comes to that place through the East gate. Ezekiel 43:1-5
The Lord's people will never again feel hunger, etc, NOT because they are in heaven, but because the Lamb is their Shepherd..... Rev 7:15-17

All this earthly fulfilment is proved by the many prophesies telling how the Lord's righteous people will be gathered soon after His Day of wrath into all of the Holy Land, where they will fulfil their destiny of being a light to the nations. Ezekiel 34:11-31

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

It may look like the 'vast multitude from every tribe, race and language' are in heaven, but the text does not say that.

False.

Here is the failure of ultra-literalism. It does not say explicitly that the Great Multitude is in Heaven, so keras disallows it, denies it, and then teaches it. However, to follow that teaching, to believe his 'study guide' is to lose all perspective of what John has conveyed to us once he was taken up.

Rev 7:9. After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

The Throne and the Lamb were introduced before in chapters four and five: this scene thus is before God the Father in the third Heaven of His presence.

Rev 7:10 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

The Great Multitude acknowledge the Father on the Throne.

Rev 7:11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

The scene is contiguous, the previously enumerated Angels, the 24 Elders, and the four Living Creatures, all part of the scene in Heaven are still present.

Despite what keras says, the Great Multitude is in Heaven. Beware ultra-literalism; it is a foolishness which attempts to keep you as blind as those who adhere to it.

 

[ATP]

The truth of where all this takes place is reiterated in Rev 14:1-2, where Jesus stands on Mt Zion with the 144,000 and they heard a great sound from heaven....

Right, a great sound coming from heaven. So the angels, the elders, and the four living creatures only exist in heaven, around the same throne where the great multitude are...

Rev 7:9 NIV After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Rev 7:11 NIV All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

 

[ATP]

Despite what keras says, the Great Multitude is in Heaven. Beware ultra-literalism; it is a foolishness which attempts to keep you as blind as those who adhere to it.

keras would have to prove that the angels, the elders, and the four living creatures exist on earth, correct?

 

[keras]

keras would have to prove that the angels, the elders, and the four living creatures exist on earth, correct?

Actually I have already proved that there is no rapture removal to heaven, Jesus Himself said so. John 3:13

Note in Ezekiel 1, he was by the river Kebar and saw a storm wind coming from the North. In it were the four living creatures and the Throne of God. The Lord commissioned him for his task of prophecy to Israel. [Not Judah] So this happened on earth, not in heaven.
The 'great sound' came ​from heaven, those on earth heard it.

But pointing out Bible truths like Ezekiel 43:1-5 and any amount of other proofs is a wasted effort with people who choose to believe false theories and fancies. The Lord makes those people blinded, Isaiah 29:9-12, Isaiah 56:10 and only when the SHFT and you are still standing on earth, clueless about what is happening, will understanding finally dawn. Isaiah 29:23-24
Wouldn't it be better to know the truth first?

 

[keras]

It may look like the 'vast multitude from every tribe, race and language' are in heaven, but the text does not say that. Quote Keras

False. Quote Marcus

I should demand an apology for this wrong and utterly rude statement. NOWHERE is heaven mentioned in Revelation chapter seven.

But it just again reiterates how Marcus cannot abide any challenge to his fixed beliefs. He uses character assassination and ridicule to denigrate his opponent's and scriptures are read from the angle of his views. Those scriptures that don't fit them are ignored.

 

[ATP]

Actually I have already proved that there is no rapture removal to heaven, Jesus Himself said so. John 3:13

Note in Ezekiel 1, he was by the river Kebar and saw a storm wind coming from the North. In it were the four living creatures and the Throne of God. The Lord commissioned him for his task of prophecy to Israel. [Not Judah] So this happened on earth, not in heaven.
The 'great sound' came ​from heaven, those on earth heard it.

But pointing out Bible truths like Ezekiel 43:1-5 and any amount of other proofs is a wasted effort with people who choose to believe false theories and fancies. The Lord makes those people blinded, Isaiah 29:9-12, Isaiah 56:10 and only when the SHFT and you are still standing on earth, clueless about what is happening, will understanding finally dawn. Isaiah 29:23-24
Wouldn't it be better to know the truth first?

John 3:13 is not about rapture. It's in reference to the deity of Christ. Rapture is here..Matt 24:40-41 NIV, John 14:1-4 NIV, 1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV, 1 Thess 4:13-17 NIV, Titus 2:13 NIV.

 

[keras]

John 3:13 is not about rapture. It's in reference to the deity of Christ. Rapture is here..Matt 24:40-41 NIV, John 14:1-4 NIV, 1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV, 1 Thess 4:13-17 NIV, Titus 2:13 NIV.

John 3:13 totally refutes any notion of humans going to live in heaven. Confirmed by John 17:15

Matthew 24:40-41 ...the 'taken' are ungodly people, the righteous are left on earth. Confirmed by Ezekiel 34:11-31, Revelation 7:9

John 14:1-4 Where Jesus prepares the place is on earth, He will come again and His people will then be with Him. Confirmed by Ezekiel 36:-12

1 Cor 15:50-54 This does not say it happens in heaven. It matches with Rev 21:4, in the new earth.

1 Thess 4:13-17 When the Lord comes....at His Return to earth, the dead believers will rise and we who remain alive will join them to meet Jesus, as He comes down to commence His Millennial reign. This may be the time of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Rev 19:5-9

Titus 2:13 Absolutely, I look forward to the great Day when Jesus will appear. From that Day, He will remain on earth and then at the end of 1000 years, God also will come to dwell with mankind and therefore heaven and earth will be as one. Rev 21:3

I suggest you look at the old thread on this forum about the rapture issue, or I could repost the proofs against the false rapture theory.

 

[ATP]

John 3:13 totally refutes any notion of humans going to live in heaven. Confirmed by John 17:15

Matthew 24:40-41 ...the 'taken' are ungodly people, the righteous are left on earth. Confirmed by Ezekiel 34:11-31, Revelation 7:9

John 14:1-4 Where Jesus prepares the place is on earth, He will come again and His people will then be with Him. Confirmed by Ezekiel 36:-12

1 Cor 15:50-54 This does not say it happens in heaven. It matches with Rev 21:4, in the new earth.

1 Thess 4:13-17 When the Lord comes....at His Return to earth, the dead believers will rise and we who remain alive will join them to meet Jesus, as He comes down to commence His Millennial reign. This may be the time of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Rev 19:5-9

Titus 2:13 Absolutely, I look forward to the great Day when Jesus will appear. From that Day, He will remain on earth and then at the end of 1000 years, God also will come to dwell with mankind and therefore heaven and earth will be as one. Rev 21:3

I suggest you look at the old thread on this forum about the rapture issue, or I could repost the proofs against the false rapture theory.

Brother, John 3:13 NIV has nothing to do with end times or rapture. It's about the deity of Christ. By the time we have our resurrected bodies we will be able to dwell in heaven.

The Father's house is in heaven in John 14:1-4 NIV. Nowhere does it imply that these rooms are on earth. Even the commentaries mention heaven 61 times.

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. The rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath John 3:36 NIV, 1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the great tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

Your whole doctrine falls apart because you have the church on earth during the trumpets and bowls of God's wrath, but scripture says believers are not appointed to wrath because they've accepted the free gift of salvation John 3:36 NIV. 1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV also describes the Day of the Lord. The beginning of the Day of the Lord is not the second coming. You also have yet to prove that the angels, the elders, and the four living creatures exist on earth Rev 7:9, 11.

- ATP

 

[keras]

ATP, it is your doctrine that falls apart when the truth of God's plans for His people are found in the Bible.
Believing a rapture removal to heaven is contrary to all the prophesies that say how the Lord will gather His righteous people soon after His Day of wrath and settle them into all of the Holy Land. This is what will happen, no matter how much anyone believes otherwise.

What point is there of going to heaven? We are earth people, God made us to live here, He made angels to serve Him in heaven. His plan is to have a people who will be His witnesses and be a light to the nations, proclaiming the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:16

John 3:13 has everything to do with no one going to heaven.
John 14:1-4 Does NOT mention heaven. Only those with the rapture agenda construe that. It fits perfectly well with an earth situation.
Believing in what the commentators wrote, is a bad mistake, how could they know the truth? Were they inspired prophets? Daniel 12:10 says: only in the last days will the truth be known.

Re God's wrath; all the scriptures about that terrible Day, say those who 'call out to the Lord' then, will be PROTECTED.

 

[ATP]

Believing a rapture removal to heaven is contrary to all the prophesies that say how the Lord will gather His righteous people soon after His Day of wrath and settle them into all of the Holy Land.

But scripture says the opposite. It says believers are not appointed to wrath.

 

[keras]

But scripture says the opposite. It says believers are not appointed to wrath.

Right, and there are dozens of scriptures that prove the Lord will protect His people during His Day of wrath.
The belief of a rapture removal before the Return of Jesus, is simply unscriptural. Even then, it seems there will be just a meeting in the clouds, as He comes down to earth.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

While keras is an expert on all matters involving unscriptural exegesis, "rapture" is in the Bible!

The word we use comes from the Latin rapio but the Greek source for it is plainly cited by Paul as a promise for us: harpazo in 1st Thessalonians 4:17

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

And remember, Paul says right after that that we are to encourage one another with this - not quash it with silly pet theories.

 

[keras]

Marcus, exactly where will the Lord be forever?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The Rapture happens on the Day of the Lord and it results with the Great Multitude arriving before God the Father in Heaven, where Jesus is now.

His Word is true. Your word? I know what you think.

 

[keras]

The true Word is what the scriptures say.
Acts 1:11 says Jesus will Return to the earth, Rev. 19:11-16 describes that event. He will come with His angels, Jude 14, Matthew 24:30-31.
Jesus will reign on earth for 1000 years, then He hands it all back to the Father. 1 Cor. 15:24. Then heaven will again be on earth, as it was in Adams day, this time forever.
Anyone who promotes a removal of humans to live in heaven, must first show scriptures saying why God wants that, secondly where does scripture clearly state such a thing, when does it happen and when does it say they come back to earth.

If you can give proper and reasonable answers to those questions, then you may gain some credibility. Now you are just ranting, pushing a false theory and using personal denigration to bully those who oppose your beliefs.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

You have some real problems with your eschatology, one of which is your confusion between natural born Israel and the spiritual component which is the Church.

Not all references in prophecy towards Israel are directed at the new spiritual aspect we are. Indeed, most OT references concern natural Israel.

The reason for the Millennium is so that all natural Israel will be saved. Ezekiel 44:10-18 can be interpreted in light of Paul's dissertation in Romans for that.

The Church IS PICTURED IN HEAVEN in Revelation 7:9-17. We are able to rule the earth from God's "camp" in Jerusalem. Our home is in Heaven, where Jesus promised to build a place for us.

 

[keras]

I have no confusion over who are the Lord's people. There is only one people, you make a mistake to think God has two people two promises.
John 10:16, John 17:22, 1 Cor. 1:13, all prove that Jesus has just one group of righteous followers. That they mainly consist of actual descendants of Jacob, that is: the 10 tribes still scattered among the nations, is according to God's plan. Deut 4:27-31
You must have read Ephesians 2:11-18, read it again carefully, ANYONE who believes in God and accepts the atoning sacrifice of Jesus is a saved Christian.
Your determination to place the events prophesied in heaven is quite wrong. The only scripture you quote does not say what is pictured in Rev. 7:9-17 is in heaven. That chapter clearly starts on earth and nowhere is there a change of venue. God's Throne can be anywhere. 2 Thess. 1:10 says He will reveal Himself to His people, soon after His fiery judgement, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
God made the earth and placed humans on it. They messed up, twice now and now there is about to happen another great correction of civilization. The eventual result will be people living on earth as God always intended us to be.