The wrong Cross

[justbyfaith]

God becomes our servant.

Indeed; for is this not written in Mark 10:45 and Philippians 2:7?

 

[FollowHim]

Self Righteousness......is ...Legalism.
Its this HERESY... = Trying to make SELF......Right with God. = self righteousness.
Its THAT theology, its the legalism theology of the SELF SAVOR, who is trying to keep themselves saved.
They will talk about "abiding"
They will talk about "enduring".
They will talk about "branches"
They will talk about "losing your salvation".

They all sound the same.

This is all biblical stuff.

There is no problem with scripture, the issue is with belief and knowing we are loved.
The truth is criticising approaches only creates more defence. Unless people open up their hearts to the Lord and understand dynamic love in the heart of man, everything else will not make sense.

Jesus is always the focus, but equally we need to be aware of our part and obedience.
The nature of love is obedience and giving, which is the heart of the law.

Legalism, or obedience with no love is pointless and will always fail.
To believe all those who love Jesus and walk in His ways are legalists comes from those who do not know love.

It is not the obedience that was criticised but the failure and lack of love in the heart.
Let me put this simply. If I could have many wives, or lovers, as a real choice would I?
Some face this question as if they could never have such a thing. If it becomes possible they do.

So which was true, their obedience because they had no choice, or their failure when opportunity came.
The real balancing of issues of the heart are at the core of our walk in Christ.
The real person in their hearts is what is eternal or ultimately flawed.

The problem with hedonism, is the emotional mood dominates and boundaries are not recognised which creates great harm and damage. The point about the gospel and the Kingdom is we honour the boundaries and truths of life above emotional mood swings and desires. Esau sold his inheritance for a bowl of food, a classic example of desire and cost. As one woman said to me, do not let your wife know.....This is a desperate compromise about who we are as people, and a denial of faithfulness and truth. And unfortunately for some it only gets worse.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The reason you can't stop wanting to sin, is because you are trying to stop wanting to sin.
Fail = Trying to stop.

Here is the issue...

The LAW, enflames your flesh. It actually causes your flesh to become activated TOWARDS sinning.

See, most believers are taught...>"well, we resist sin and the devil flees"....so, they think..." resist sin and it stops trying to get me to sin".
But notice the verse....."the DEVIL" will flee.
Well, the DEVIL is not your problem for the most part, as its the SIN in you, the wrong desire in your FLESH that DESIRES to sin, that is the REAL issue.
You have to solve THAT.

See, if the Devil was no longer alive, you would still have this issue in your flesh ...which wants to be SATISFIED by sin.
SIN feeds the carnal desire. Carnal desire is an appetite that needs SIN as Spiritual FOOD.
Understand?
So, when you starve your flesh, or when you strive against it, you just make it more hungry for sinning. (carnal spiritual food).
And THIS process, is how the LAW empowers your carnality to become WORSE.
So, to keep on sinning, .. what you do.....is try to STOP in your own power.
And what happens? You become more sin conscious, which leads you to sin more.. and more.
This "sin consciousness", is how the LAW, curses you.....It actually provokes and stimulates your carnal desire to want to sin more.

= The power oF SIN = THE LAW.

How to stop all that is what you have to learn, so that you can stop sinning.

Paul said....
"sin shall not have dominion over you".. = "Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE OF THE LAW".. "you are not under the law, but UNDER GRACE". "if you walk in the Spirit you shall not sin".. "how can the born again, who are dead to sin, continue to sin"?

Understand that if you are "under the law" then you will sin, because "the power of sin is the LAW".
To be under the law, is to try to stop sinning by willpower, or by gritting your teeth and trying not to do it again..
You will fail. and fail. and fail.
And that is why your life is "sinning and repenting, sinning and confessing".

So, you have to get yourself out from under the Law, Reader....
As its by trying to resist sin, in your own power, by WILL< that puts you under the law's dominion that causes you to sin more...and more and more.
The Law is as curse to you... It works like this. =when you try by self effort to stop sinning, the Law will cause you to have more desire to sin.
See that?
That is..>"the curse of the Law".......and "Christ came to REDEEM US from the CURSE of the Law".
So, you have to get out from UNDER that curse..... "we are not under the Law, we are UNDER GRACE".
You have to now LIVE "under GRACE" or you will keep on sinning and repenting and failing.

This means that to stop that cycle, you have to get away from trying to resist sin, and instead live inside the Grace of God = "Under GRACE".
You have to understand that by living IN the Grace of God, you stop striving to do what can't be done, and this allows you to REST from that striving.
Its resting in the Grace of God.. Its coming into mental alignment (the mind of Christ) with the Grace of God, that gives you rest from the consciousness of sin, that FREES YOU FROM it.

How do you live in the Grace of God?
You will find this to be your place of rest, the second you no longer believe that you can lose your salvation.
Once you are THERE Mentally, then you have understood GRACE< and God's Grace will now become your sanctuary that allows you to REST from striving against the Law, which is why you keep on sinning and repenting and confessing.
You have to establish your HEART, your entire belief system, on/by = GOD's GRACE and MERCY, and get the CROSS of SELF Righteousness OFF OF YOUR OWN BACK.
Till you do, you will not be able to stop sinning.

You have to live HERE. Hebrews 13:9

The only way to not be UNDER to law is to walk in the Spirit.

 

[John Caldwell]

The irony of the OP is that this is about cross avoidance. As in..Jesus died INSTEAD of me so I can go on living as if He never came to earth at all. In this scheme Jesus is the Lamb of Man....whom we sacrificed for our own sins...one time for all. So Jesus becomes a super sacrifice (supersize me) and a super genie that gives us all our wishes. God becomes our servant. He will do anything to please us. Or should it not be the other way around?

So the flesh loves this salvation for the sinful nature in man. But they who walk according to the flesh cannot please God.

But all this is to avoid the cross. The power of the cross takes out the outer man so that the inner life in us can break out into the world as a light to the world.

We are to follow Jesus into His death so that we can walk as He walked...in newness of life. (and not in oldness of life with a new insurance policy)

We have victory over sin as we abide in Christ. And the closer we walk to Him...at the end of ourselves...the more we will conform to His image.
But the full measure of grace is to go to God and allow Him to translate us into His kingdom to walk where He walked...in the holy presence of God.

I suspect the idea that Christ died instead of us enjoys a certain amount of popularity precisely because it is a benign form of Christianity that makes no demand on us.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The reason you can't stop wanting to sin, is because you are trying to stop wanting to sin.
Fail = Trying to stop.

Here is the issue...

The LAW, enflames your flesh. It actually causes your flesh to become activated TOWARDS sinning.

See, most believers are taught...>"well, we resist sin and the devil flees"....so, they think..." resist sin and it stops trying to get me to sin".
But notice the verse....."the DEVIL" will flee.
Well, the DEVIL is not your problem for the most part, as its the SIN in you, the wrong desire in your FLESH that DESIRES to sin, that is the REAL issue.
You have to solve THAT.

See, if the Devil was no longer alive, you would still have this issue in your flesh ...which wants to be SATISFIED by sin.
SIN feeds the carnal desire. Carnal desire is an appetite that needs SIN as Spiritual FOOD.
Understand?
So, when you starve your flesh, or when you strive against it, you just make it more hungry for sinning. (carnal spiritual food).
And THIS process, is how the LAW empowers your carnality to become WORSE.
So, to keep on sinning, .. what you do.....is try to STOP in your own power.
And what happens? You become more sin conscious, which leads you to sin more.. and more.
This "sin consciousness", is how the LAW, curses you.....It actually provokes and stimulates your carnal desire to want to sin more.

= The power oF SIN = THE LAW.

How to stop all that is what you have to learn, so that you can stop sinning.

Paul said....
"sin shall not have dominion over you".. = "Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE OF THE LAW".. "you are not under the law, but UNDER GRACE". "if you walk in the Spirit you shall not sin".. "how can the born again, who are dead to sin, continue to sin"?

Understand that if you are "under the law" then you will sin, because "the power of sin is the LAW".
To be under the law, is to try to stop sinning by willpower, or by gritting your teeth and trying not to do it again..
You will fail. and fail. and fail.
And that is why your life is "sinning and repenting, sinning and confessing".

So, you have to get yourself out from under the Law, Reader....
As its by trying to resist sin, in your own power, by WILL< that puts you under the law's dominion that causes you to sin more...and more and more.
The Law is as curse to you... It works like this. =when you try by self effort to stop sinning, the Law will cause you to have more desire to sin.
See that?
That is..>"the curse of the Law".......and "Christ came to REDEEM US from the CURSE of the Law".
So, you have to get out from UNDER that curse..... "we are not under the Law, we are UNDER GRACE".
You have to now LIVE "under GRACE" or you will keep on sinning and repenting and failing.

This means that to stop that cycle, you have to get away from trying to resist sin, and instead live inside the Grace of God = "Under GRACE".
You have to understand that by living IN the Grace of God, you stop striving to do what can't be done, and this allows you to REST from that striving.
Its resting in the Grace of God.. Its coming into mental alignment (the mind of Christ) with the Grace of God, that gives you rest from the consciousness of sin, that FREES YOU FROM it.

How do you live in the Grace of God?
You will find this to be your place of rest, the second you no longer believe that you can lose your salvation.
Once you are THERE Mentally, then you have understood GRACE< and God's Grace will now become your sanctuary that allows you to REST from striving against the Law, which is why you keep on sinning and repenting and confessing.
You have to establish your HEART, your entire belief system, on/by = GOD's GRACE and MERCY, and get the CROSS of SELF Righteousness OFF OF YOUR OWN BACK.
Till you do, you will not be able to stop sinning.

You have to live HERE. Hebrews 13:9

I'm sorry, brother, but this is a mess. Gods law is spiritual and good. Gods law is not the power of sin. If that's where you have arrived, you've gone wrong.

The goal is not to stop trying to not sin. Gods goal is to get you to realize that no matter how hard you try, you cannot completely stop, you cannot reach holiness by your efforts. This is meant to get you to stop looking to your own powers and to seek, knock and ask for the power of God.

 

[justbyfaith]

Gods law is spiritual and good. Gods law is not the power of sin. If that's where you have arrived, you've gone wrong.

See Romans 7:5 and Romans 7:8 friend.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

See Romans 7:5 and Romans 7:8 friend.

7:8 talks about the flesh. It doesn't say Gods law is the power of sin as the poster said.

If you end with Gods law being a bad thing, you have gone wrong.

7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not!

But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.

13 But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God’s good commands for its own evil purposes.

 

[justbyfaith]

7:8 talks about the flesh. It doesn't say Gods law is the power of sin as the poster said.

It teaches that sin takes advantage of the law in order to produce all manner of concupiscence.

And 7:5 tells us that the motions of sins, that bring forth fruit unto death, are by the law.

 

[justbyfaith]

7:8 talks about the flesh. It doesn't say Gods law is the power of sin as the poster said.

See also 1 Corinthians 15:56.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Law is not the problem as others have said. James tells us,

James 1:13-15
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Lust >> Sin >> Death.

You might say, well what about 1Corinthians 15:56

1Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

What does Paul have in mind? Paul is explaining why Sin causes death. It isn't that the Law entices us to sin. Rather, the Law Convicts us of sin. Thus, we can add judgment to our vector diagram.

Lust >> Sin >> Judgment >> Death. Without a death sentence, without condemnation, sin has no power to cause death. The power of sin to cause death is God's sentence of "guilty".

 

[Episkopos]

This is all biblical stuff.

There is no problem with scripture, the issue is with belief and knowing we are loved.
The truth is criticising approaches only creates more defence. Unless people open up their hearts to the Lord and understand dynamic love in the heart of man, everything else will not make sense.

Jesus is always the focus, but equally we need to be aware of our part and obedience.
The nature of love is obedience and giving, which is the heart of the law.

Legalism, or obedience with no love is pointless and will always fail.
To believe all those who love Jesus and walk in His ways are legalists comes from those who do not know love.

It is not the obedience that was criticised but the failure and lack of love in the heart.
Let me put this simply. If I could have many wives, or lovers, as a real choice would I?
Some face this question as if they could never have such a thing. If it becomes possible they do.

So which was true, their obedience because they had no choice, or their failure when opportunity came.
The real balancing of issues of the heart are at the core of our walk in Christ.
The real person in their hearts is what is eternal or ultimately flawed.

The problem with hedonism, is the emotional mood dominates and boundaries are not recognised which creates great harm and damage. The point about the gospel and the Kingdom is we honour the boundaries and truths of life above emotional mood swings and desires. Esau sold his inheritance for a bowl of food, a classic example of desire and cost. As one woman said to me, do not let your wife know.....This is a desperate compromise about who we are as people, and a denial of faithfulness and truth. And unfortunately for some it only gets worse.

It sounds biblical because it uses bible words. And this kind of bible twisting fools a lot of people. But the OP is not about the truth but about spinning the bible verses to mean something they don't mean.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Law is not the problem as others have said. James tells us,

James 1:13-15
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Lust >> Sin >> Death.

You might say, well what about 1Corinthians 15:56

1Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

What does Paul have in mind? Paul is explaining why Sin causes death. It isn't that the Law entices us to sin. Rather, the Law Convicts us of sin. Thus, we can add judgment to our vector diagram.

Lust >> Sin >> Judgment >> Death. Without a death sentence, without condemnation, sin has no power to cause death. The power of sin to cause death is God's sentence of "guilty".

Sin takes advantage of the law to produce in us all manner of concupiscence (Romans 7:8). And the motions of sins, that bring forth fruit unto death, are by the law (Romans 7:5).

These things are truths that will set you free if you can lay hold on them.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

When he says the power of sin is the law, he is talking about the law that says: the soul who sins will die. But he makes clear that it is not the law that is bad. He clearly states sin is bad, not the law.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The reason you can't stop wanting to sin, is because you are trying to stop wanting to sin.
Fail = Trying to stop.

Here is the issue...

The LAW, enflames your flesh. It actually causes your flesh to become activated TOWARDS sinning.

See, most believers are taught...>"well, we resist sin and the devil flees"....so, they think..." resist sin and it stops trying to get me to sin".
But notice the verse....."the DEVIL" will flee.
Well, the DEVIL is not your problem for the most part, as its the SIN in you, the wrong desire in your FLESH that DESIRES to sin, that is the REAL issue.
You have to solve THAT.

See, if the Devil was no longer alive, you would still have this issue in your flesh ...which wants to be SATISFIED by sin.
SIN feeds the carnal desire. Carnal desire is an appetite that needs SIN as Spiritual FOOD.
Understand?
So, when you starve your flesh, or when you strive against it, you just make it more hungry for sinning. (carnal spiritual food).
And THIS process, is how the LAW empowers your carnality to become WORSE.
So, to keep on sinning, .. what you do.....is try to STOP in your own power.
And what happens? You become more sin conscious, which leads you to sin more.. and more.
This "sin consciousness", is how the LAW, curses you.....It actually provokes and stimulates your carnal desire to want to sin more.

= The power oF SIN = THE LAW.

How to stop all that is what you have to learn, so that you can stop sinning.

Paul said....
"sin shall not have dominion over you".. = "Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE OF THE LAW".. "you are not under the law, but UNDER GRACE". "if you walk in the Spirit you shall not sin".. "how can the born again, who are dead to sin, continue to sin"?

Understand that if you are "under the law" then you will sin, because "the power of sin is the LAW".
To be under the law, is to try to stop sinning by willpower, or by gritting your teeth and trying not to do it again..
You will fail. and fail. and fail.
And that is why your life is "sinning and repenting, sinning and confessing".

So, you have to get yourself out from under the Law, Reader....
As its by trying to resist sin, in your own power, by WILL< that puts you under the law's dominion that causes you to sin more...and more and more.
The Law is as curse to you... It works like this. =when you try by self effort to stop sinning, the Law will cause you to have more desire to sin.
See that?
That is..>"the curse of the Law".......and "Christ came to REDEEM US from the CURSE of the Law".
So, you have to get out from UNDER that curse..... "we are not under the Law, we are UNDER GRACE".
You have to now LIVE "under GRACE" or you will keep on sinning and repenting and failing.

This means that to stop that cycle, you have to get away from trying to resist sin, and instead live inside the Grace of God = "Under GRACE".
You have to understand that by living IN the Grace of God, you stop striving to do what can't be done, and this allows you to REST from that striving.
Its resting in the Grace of God.. Its coming into mental alignment (the mind of Christ) with the Grace of God, that gives you rest from the consciousness of sin, that FREES YOU FROM it.

How do you live in the Grace of God?
You will find this to be your place of rest, the second you no longer believe that you can lose your salvation.
Once you are THERE Mentally, then you have understood GRACE< and God's Grace will now become your sanctuary that allows you to REST from striving against the Law, which is why you keep on sinning and repenting and confessing.
You have to establish your HEART, your entire belief system, on/by = GOD's GRACE and MERCY, and get the CROSS of SELF Righteousness OFF OF YOUR OWN BACK.
Till you do, you will not be able to stop sinning.

You have to live HERE. Hebrews 13:9

I agree with your basic premise about being under grace. Christians are under God's grace, and we are to live our lives as such. God's grace is His saving and sustaining power. We are saved by grace through faith, and we live our lives in the same manner.

However, you misquoted a verse, and I think it's an important one. You said something about resisting sin, and the devil will flee from us.... But James 4:7 says, "Therefore, submit to God. But resist the Devil, and he will flee from you." The life lived under God's grace is a submitted life--submitted to His Holy Spirit who indwells us.

Galatians 5:16 says, "I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." Being under grace, which is God's power, submitted to Him, means that we are walking by the Spirit, and this enables us not crater to temptations.
.

 

[quietthinker]

It teaches that sin takes advantage of the law in order to produce all manner of concupiscence.

And 7:5 tells us that the motions of sins, that bring forth fruit unto death, are by the law.

All who love God love God's law....the two are inseparable because His law reflects His character. If that is not seen, God has not been seen.

Jesus kept God's Law. Do I mean he ticked an arbitrary box? do I mean he jumped through the designated hoops?......how primitive and ignorant is that view!

Keeping God's Law meant none other than reflecting God's character .....Jesus was the image of the invisible God.
To hate God's Law is to hate God. It is Lucifer who hates Gods Law.....in his pride he figured he had a better way: we all know the results of that.

To blame God's Law is to do just what Lucifer did

Breaking one means breaking them all......and it starts with self justification and intent.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Well, the DEVIL is not your problem for the most part, as its the SIN in you, the wrong desire in your FLESH that DESIRES to sin, that is the REAL issue.
You have to solve THAT.

Scripture says we should not let sin thwart us, which it can easily do, but we should lay it aside and faithfully continue following Christ to the end.

Heb 12:1-4 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which does so easily beset (thwart) us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (3) For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest you be wearied and faint in your minds. (4) You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

 

[justbyfaith]

In Romans 7:5 and in Romans 7:8, it is written that sin takes advantage of the law in order to produce in us all manner of concupiscence...and that the motions of sins, which bear fruit unto death, are by the law.

Now the law is in fact written in the minds and hearts of NT Christians (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16).

However, this righteousness, which is attested to by the law and the prophets, is also apart from the law (Romans 3:21).

In bearing the fruit of the Spirit, we will not be violating any law of holy scripture (Galatians 5:22-23).

It remains that this righteousness comes by abiding in Jesus Christ through faith and not by the deeds of the law.

We do not obtain this righteousness by attempting to keep a requirement of do's and don'ts.

We obtain it by staying connected to Jesus Christ and being satisfied by the Holy Spirit (John 6:35, John 4:13-14, John 6:37-39) so that we are no longer thirsty for ungodly behaviour.

We walk in righteousness because Jesus has given to us life, and that more abundantly.

I would say also that in being set free from the law's condemnation (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19, Romans 7:6), we are set free from its function that sin takes advantage of in order to bring us into temptation.

Yes, we can have victory over even being tempted if we will but realize that we are no longer under the law, are dead to it, and are delivered from it (Romans 7:5, Romans 7:8).

 

[CadyandZoe]

Sin takes advantage of the law to produce in us all manner of concupiscence (Romans 7:8). And the motions of sins, that bring forth fruit unto death, are by the law (Romans 7:5).

These things are truths that will set you free if you can lay hold on them.

I don't think Paul was saying that the law "caused" sin: I think he is saying that the Law made sin evident.

In this context Paul is talking about coveting, which is one of the Ten Commandments, i.e. Thou shall not covet." If you think about it, this commandment is unlike all the others. The difference is essentially this. All the other commandments tell us what one ought to do or not do. This commandment, on the other hand, tells us what to want.

For instance, depending on how we number them, commandment seven says, "Thou shalt not commit adultery. According to commandment 10, not only are we to not sleep with our neighbor's wife; we shall not even want to sleep with our neighbor's wife.

Commandment eight says, "Thou shalt not steal. But according to commandment 10, not only shall we not take our neighbor's stuff, we shall not even want our neighbor's stuff.

This is the commandment that brought Paul to his knees. For how can a man (or a woman) not want what he wants? Lust and desire are a fundamental aspect of being human. It's as if God is saying, thou shalt not be human. We can't change ourselves, which is why Paul referred to himself as a "wretched man."

 

[CadyandZoe]

I forgot to add. The reason why the Law makes sin evident is because the Law challenges us to act morally. Anyone can say to himself, I can stop sinning any time I want. I'm a good person.

But put that notion to the test. Attempt to keep the Law, attempt to act morally all the time and see where it leads. The law will only make sin evident at the very moment one attempts to obey it.

 

[justbyfaith]

Sin takes advantage of the law in order to produce all manner of concupiscence (Romans 7:8). The motions of sins, that bring forth fruit unto death, are by the law (Romans 7:5).