The wrong Cross

[FollowHim]

When you deal with a person on a Fourm who can't stand the idea that God has made them as Righteous as Himself, then you are dealing with .

1.) A religious person who is not born again

2.) A very religious christian who is not going to listen, as their faith is not in Christ, but its in themselves to try to "stay saved" by their self effort.

In both cases, they will bite you like a mad dog if you try to Give Jesus all the Credit due Him alone for saving us and keeping us saved, and try to get them to SEE THIS for themselves.
Expect it, as these people have a very religious - hateful spirit.
They can't argue their lack of faith in Christ without proving they don't have any, and they know this, so, all that is left is for them to do is attack you personally, by lying.

Last night I had an exchange in our house group.
I was sharing that I felt Paul did not deal with the emotional issues Christ overcoming sin in our hearts by changing our motivations and understanding. I wanted a further discussion on this issue, to explore what transformation is. They closed this down, by getting annoyed, and excusing not going down this line of thought.

Now my reaction inside was being hurt and rejected, which I could have interpreted as their hateful spirit. But in truth it is their fear of facing emotional issues in their lives which would lead to change, which they want to avoid at all costs. I was not prepared for this, because I dwell too much on the ideas and not enough on how people will react, and how to guide them to a better resolution.

We are working through romans as a house group, so many more opportunities are going to arise as Paul pulls no punches.
Everyone resists issues of growth because cost is always an accompanying issue, but if we are to sow Gods word and see fruit, we need to know when and how the appropriate words can be spoken. God bless you

 

[marks]

Right believing produces right living

But at the end of the day this is correct, right believing produces right living.

We don't live right because our beliefs are off.

. . . and by faith in Him we have access into the grace in which we stand.

In romans 6 Paul argues we are dead to sin, because we have identified to the cross and Jesus and His atonement.

I would differ on this . . . we are dead to sin because we have been crucified to it. Not a matter of identification, rather, death and rebirth. Dead to the line of Adam, to the body of sin, alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Not that we've had a change of mind, though we have, but because of death and resurrection, and that we are no longer that man, and are a new creation.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What I am working on is how you bring the light into such a situation, where Jesus overcomes their insecurity and lifts them up to the maturity and life He desires that they might experience. God bless you

Letting them know they are dead to sin, and dead to the Law. There is no law that governs us other that what Jesus tells each of us what He wants me to do.

When people are invested in doing right and not doing wrong for the sake of those things, then the flesh will always war over doing wrong.

But when we forget about all that and just determine that we want to know Jesus, and forget about "rating" myself over how obedient I think I'm being, then I can both enjoy Christ, and also find that the power of sin has diminished. And when it crouches at the door, I turn back to Jesus, and forget about it.

It's not about trying to do this and not do that, it's about following Jesus wherever He will lead. 2 very different kinds of life.

Much love!

 

[marks]

We are working through romans as a house group, so many more opportunities are going to arise as Paul pulls no punches.
Everyone resists issues of growth because cost is always an accompanying issue,

Except that there is no real cost, but because we fail to make a proper distinction between the flesh and the spirit, people identify with the desires of the flesh, owning them as if they were theirs, and then feel bereft at the thought of having to put that all away.

But, when we come to realize the glory and joy and love of the new creation, the righteousness and holiness, and how the Holy Spirit will just make it all happen for us, if we simply trust Him to do so, then we recognize that whatever the feelings, if they don't match the faith, It ain't me! People resist growth because they don't understand it.

People have been teaching all my life all the wrong ways to be a Christian, when the reality is that you Stop Working, and Rest. But we don't know how to do that! And it makes no sense!

But God promises that if we anchor our minds in Him, He will keep us in Perfect Peace!

Much love!

 

[FollowHim]

Except that there is no real cost, but because we fail to make a proper distinction between the flesh and the spirit, people identify with the desires of the flesh, owning them as if they were theirs, and then feel bereft at the thought of having to put that all away.

But, when we come to realize the glory and joy and love of the new creation, the righteousness and holiness, and how the Holy Spirit will just make it all happen for us, if we simply trust Him to do so, then we recognize that whatever the feelings, if they don't match the faith, It ain't me! People resist growth because they don't understand it.

People have been teaching all my life all the wrong ways to be a Christian, when the reality is that you Stop Working, and Rest. But we don't know how to do that! And it makes no sense!

But God promises that if we anchor our minds in Him, He will keep us in Perfect Peace!

Much love!

"if they don't match the faith, It ain't me"

This is a gnostic type position. It is also disassociating ourselves from the passions we are born with.

I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Rom 7:25

Conclusively we are humans with desires, which in their proper place are appropriate but if fed can go out of control.
This is all our lives experience. Meet a stunning beautiful person who you get on very well with and things can progress in ways that are not helpful.
Here is the problem in life. We are forever bound to these possibilities except we can choose to see the real focus of Christ and eternity or the immediate desires of today.

Paul describes the problem of focusing on failure, emphasises the temptation and weakness of that failure, which causes it to become stronger. The true focus is on Jesus and the cross, on love, on ultimate responsibilities and needs we all have. The illusion is in society attention matters, from others, from where we work, how much money we have, what we are doing each and every day. When you begin to see being with Jesus is the beginning and end of significance, then you see things as they should be seen. Chasing after wealth you cannot spend, houses you cannot spend time in, pleasures that become pointless too quickly, is not our focus of existence. Sin only survives because it believes in the dream...... The Lord heals because He speaks to our need for love, security and acceptance at the deepest levels, which He provides.

God bless you

 

[marks]

"if they don't match the faith, It ain't me"

This is a gnostic type position.

I think rather that the Gnostics had this whole idea that matter was evil, so an independant "little god" made matter, and we are being rescued out of matter, to the spirit realm. So I'm not sure what you mean here.

But to address the bolded part . . .

2 Corinthians 10
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

We live in our bodies, but we do not war according to the way of our natural lives. Our weapons have nothing to do with our natural lives, but are spiritual, finding strength not in the power of man, but in the power of God.

This power casts down imaginations and high things that raise themselves up against our knowledge of God. Every thought is taken captive to serve Christ.

I think this happens as we examine what's in our minds, and compare to what the Bible tells us about ourselves. Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Gentleness, Faithfulness, Self-Control, these are all of the Spirit, therefore, hate, depression, discontent, impatience, so forth, these are all of the flesh, to be rejected, so that the mental space can be filled with love, joy, peace, etc.

It is also disassociating ourselves from the passions we are born with.

Those passions are fleshy passions, and not part of the new creation.

I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Rom 7:25

Conclusively we are humans with desires, which in their proper place are appropriate but if fed can go out of control.
This is all our lives experience. Meet a stunning beautiful person who you get on very well with and things can progress in ways that are not helpful.

And if you are walking in the Spirit in the joy of the Lord all you'll want to do is to share His love, that that won't look anything like when the flesh is involved.

When we are trusting in Jesus, everything changes.

Here is the problem in life. We are forever bound to these possibilities except we can choose to see the real focus of Christ and eternity or the immediate desires of today.

We are loosed from the Law, and we are crucified to our flesh, and to this world. But we need to believe that's true so that we will live accordingly.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

Failed christianity is whose fault? God or man?

Did God fail on the Cross?
Did he, followhim?
If He did, then blame God if your Christianity is "sinning and repenting", instead of Victory over Sin "in=through Christ".
If He didnt fail, and your Christianity is "sinning and repenting", then what's the problem?
Its not the Cross.
Who does that leave?
There is your final answer, followhim.

 

[FollowHim]

Did God fail on the Cross?
Did he, followhim?
If He did, then blame God if your Christianity is "sinning and repenting", instead of Victory over Sin "in=through Christ".
If He didnt fail, and your Christianity is "sinning and repenting", then what's the problem?
Its not the Cross.
Who does that leave?
There is your final answer, followhim.

I think there is no final answer my friend. You believe there is a defined result, a one off.
The problem is if everything was simple there would be no struggle or desire for direction and reality.
The world would be full of the perfect and the lost, with nothing in between.

You seem to believe that people arrive at a destination and then carry on perfect from there on in.
Trouble is this group may be just you, which I suspect is true, that you stand alone.
Which is why you are here on a forum believing by typing a few messages to believers everything will change.

In your version, the Lord has done it all, so either everyone who is saved is there already or you are wrong.
It is the problem of polarised gospels, where arriving just happens. Either you are apparently perfect, gnostic view,
or you are actually perfect, perfectionist view, both of which are heresy.

We are a work in motion, which we cannot not ourselves define, for God is at work in us.
God bless you

 

[Philip James]

but what Christ taught was away of thinking, away of the heart, the way to properly apply Christianity. He led by example, what did He do? What was His attitude in all that He did?

You have been told, O man, what is good, and what the LORD requires of you: Only to do right and to love goodness, and to walk humbly with your God.

Peace!

 

[Helen]

Are you accountable for your behavior as a believer? Yes.
Are your sins all resolved by Jesus's Blood and the Cross.? Yes.

Will a born again Christian be judged for their sin, in Heaven. No.
Jesus has already been Judged for them all on The Cross, on Earth, 2000 yrs ago.

Agree ...we will be judge on what we did with what He purchased for us and gave us.....and what it produced - either wood , hay, or stubble...or gold , silver and precious stones.
Sin has been Judged on the cross in Jesus Christ...finished. ✟

 

[Behold]

Agree ...we will be judge on what we did with what He purchased for us and gave us.....and what it produced - either wood , hay, or stubble...or gold , silver and precious stones.
Sin has been Judged on the cross in Jesus Christ...finished. ✟

Amen !

 

[FollowHim]

Amen !

You interest me about your contradictions. Imagine you are right, you are one of the few. Then God failed to communicate this through His word, through the Holy Spirit and through His son. What always amazes me about the Lord is His gospel is obvious to even young children, that we can walk in love because we know we are loved.

It is odd but the more educated, intelligent people are, often the more cynical, hurt and defended they are, with all their education, self justification, proving they are better than others, and they deserve all the praise and exaltation, but those who know failure, poverty, need, get to the end of themselves and cry out to God is real openness and desperation are saved and know the value of love and speaking from the heart.

We cannot fake this, it is a striping down of who we are, so we stand before Him in need and poverty of Spirit, so He can and will always continue to fill us and make us whole. And our calling is just to shine His glory and grace in our lives, because in the end, it is only through dwelling in Him do we begin to grasp the wonder of the Kingdom. Somehow so many claim to know the truth, but just end up speaking condemnation rather than light and love. The problem in our lives are the wounds we do not let Jesus touch, the disappointments that have never been resolved, the potential failures and proving ourselves that will never be set right, because we still care, rather than just dwell in His presence.

Praise God there is now no condemnation for those who walk in the Spirit, Amen.

 

[Behold]

Somehow so many claim to know the truth, but just end up speaking condemnation rather than light and love.

If you notice carefully, all my Threads are designed to remove condemnation, and free a real believer from bondage to self righteousness that is causing them to sin and repent and live a failed Christian discipleship.
None of my Threads attempt to keep people under the law, under their carnality, and away from the Grace of God that is the power given to them so that they can stop sinning, and live a holy life AS a perfected Discipleship.
What to notice?
Notice all those who live on my Threads denying them, trying to KEEP other believers in the same sinning and confessing failed discipleship that they maintain by their wrong believing.
Note these people, their pride, and avoid them.
Simple.
Listen to the Light that frees and note the dark lights who can't stand it.
Discern them.

 

[Philip James]

Anything that suggests where they are should shift, is resisted like it is the worst proposition ever.

Hi FH,

Now there is a proper description of our society today!

The best priests were usually the least popular in some parishes I've attended over the last few decades, I'm sad to say.
But the resurrgance that has come about, (I believe as a result of JohnPaulII and Benedict XVi pontificates) is refreshing..

God save the Queen!

Peace be with you!

 

[justbyfaith]

Note these people, their pride, and avoid them.

Yes; you are the only teacher on these boards that anyone is to follow.

 

[marks]

Then God failed to communicate this through His word,

I'd have to say that this point @Behold is making is Exactly what I find in the Bible, and exactly what I find real in my life.

That to think of ourselves in terms of whether we are following the rules well enough or not puts the mind into a state of lawkeeping, of living according to the knowledge of good and evil, which invariably results in our getting into some temptation to sin and attempting to "fight it", with mixed results.

But to think of ourselves as completely righteous, which is what the Bible says we are, and completely free from law and condemnation and all that, which is exactly what the Bible teaches, my mind automatically fixes on Christ, Who gave me this life, and I live unto God.

The only reason we don't enjoy the constant state of "living unto God" is because we believe we are not able, or are disqualified, or simply don't really know what that means.

But when we discover the true liberty that Christ bought for us, everything changes.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You seem to believe that people arrive at a destination and then carry on perfect from there on in.
Trouble is this group may be just you, which I suspect is true, that you stand alone.
Which is why you are here on a forum believing by typing a few messages to believers everything will change.

Hi FollowHim,

I hope with all my heart that This change is experienced by everyone here who doesn't understand this truth.

@Behold has been talking about the difference between the old man and the new man.

The old man is born from Adam, and condemned in sin. His mind is corrupt, he is hostile to God. He was corrupted by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and now lives life according to the knowledge of good and evil, his mind accusing and excusing, showing the knowledge of right and wrong, though never able change his nature. And the moment God puts a focus on what the man is doing, to impose God's Idea of Right and Wrong, NO! That was the whole point! Man becomes like God, deciding for himself! So God says, Don't Covet, and that flesh man responds, I WILL COVET ALL I WANT!

He is the corrupt fruit of a corrupt tree.

The law is good if used lawfully. It was given for the ungodly. So if you are living by Law, you are living as the ungodly.

Jesus is our Tree of Life. Not according to the knowledge of good and evil, as if we are the arbiter. We're not. We don't know enough. That's why Jesus is the only Judge.

So instead of constantly minding ourselves, and ending up in fights with the lusts of the flesh, we set our minds at rest knowing Jesus will work within us to both will, and do, what pleases Him. We're to put those things into our lives as He puts them into us, this yoke is easy.

And what we find is that in this kind of trust there is a release of faith, and we walk in His ways.

When I decide to stop fighting the flesh and just stop my mind as it goes on and on in it's corrupt ways, just stop! And set my mind on Jesus. Very important . . . knowing . . . with certainty . . . there is now no condemnation . . . then we come with true boldness to seek His help. And His help is exactly what we receive.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

The Law is not the problem as others have said. James tells us,

James 1:13-15
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Lust >> Sin >> Death.

You might say, well what about 1Corinthians 15:56

1Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

What does Paul have in mind? Paul is explaining why Sin causes death. It isn't that the Law entices us to sin. Rather, the Law Convicts us of sin. Thus, we can add judgment to our vector diagram.

Lust >> Sin >> Judgment >> Death. Without a death sentence, without condemnation, sin has no power to cause death. The power of sin to cause death is God's sentence of "guilty".

Good verses there to remember.

 

[justbyfaith]

When I decide to stop fighting the flesh

Hi, @marks,

I do believe that we are to mortify the deeds of the body in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:12-13, Colossians 3:5-6.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The reason you can't stop wanting to sin, is because you are trying to stop wanting to sin.
Fail = Trying to stop.

Here is the issue...

The LAW, enflames your flesh. It actually causes your flesh to become activated TOWARDS sinning.

See, most believers are taught...>"well, we resist sin and the devil flees"....so, they think..." resist sin and it stops trying to get me to sin".
But notice the verse....."the DEVIL" will flee.
Well, the DEVIL is not your problem for the most part, as its the SIN in you, the wrong desire in your FLESH that DESIRES to sin, that is the REAL issue.
You have to solve THAT.

See, if the Devil was no longer alive, you would still have this issue in your flesh ...which wants to be SATISFIED by sin.
SIN feeds the carnal desire. Carnal desire is an appetite that needs SIN as Spiritual FOOD.
Understand?
So, when you starve your flesh, or when you strive against it, you just make it more hungry for sinning. (carnal spiritual food).
And THIS process, is how the LAW empowers your carnality to become WORSE.
So, to keep on sinning, .. what you do.....is try to STOP in your own power.
And what happens? You become more sin conscious, which leads you to sin more.. and more.
This "sin consciousness", is how the LAW, curses you.....It actually provokes and stimulates your carnal desire to want to sin more.

= The power oF SIN = THE LAW.

How to stop all that is what you have to learn, so that you can stop sinning.

Paul said....
"sin shall not have dominion over you".. = "Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE OF THE LAW".. "you are not under the law, but UNDER GRACE". "if you walk in the Spirit you shall not sin".. "how can the born again, who are dead to sin, continue to sin"?

Understand that if you are "under the law" then you will sin, because "the power of sin is the LAW".
To be under the law, is to try to stop sinning by willpower, or by gritting your teeth and trying not to do it again..
You will fail. and fail. and fail.
And that is why your life is "sinning and repenting, sinning and confessing".

So, you have to get yourself out from under the Law, Reader....
As its by trying to resist sin, in your own power, by WILL< that puts you under the law's dominion that causes you to sin more...and more and more.
The Law is as curse to you... It works like this. =when you try by self effort to stop sinning, the Law will cause you to have more desire to sin.
See that?
That is..>"the curse of the Law".......and "Christ came to REDEEM US from the CURSE of the Law".
So, you have to get out from UNDER that curse..... "we are not under the Law, we are UNDER GRACE".
You have to now LIVE "under GRACE" or you will keep on sinning and repenting and failing.

This means that to stop that cycle, you have to get away from trying to resist sin, and instead live inside the Grace of God = "Under GRACE".
You have to understand that by living IN the Grace of God, you stop striving to do what can't be done, and this allows you to REST from that striving.
Its resting in the Grace of God.. Its coming into mental alignment (the mind of Christ) with the Grace of God, that gives you rest from the consciousness of sin, that FREES YOU FROM it.

How do you live in the Grace of God?
You will find this to be your place of rest, the second you no longer believe that you can lose your salvation.
Once you are THERE Mentally, then you have understood GRACE< and God's Grace will now become your sanctuary that allows you to REST from striving against the Law, which is why you keep on sinning and repenting and confessing.
You have to establish your HEART, your entire belief system, on/by = GOD's GRACE and MERCY, and get the CROSS of SELF Righteousness OFF OF YOUR OWN BACK.
Till you do, you will not be able to stop sinning.

You have to live HERE. Hebrews 13:9

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