The Wrong Effect

[Pearl]

I apologize. I didn't mean to appear unfriendly.

I merely was being lazy; I didn't want to take the time to convince you of my pov; because I believed that if you keep reading my posts on these boards in other places, you will be convinced of it soon enough. That is, if you are receptive to the teaching of the Holy Ghost; which He teaches when we compare spiritual things with spiritual.

Ok thanks for that. Communicating like this has its own problems for all of us.

I have been a Christian for many years but I hope I am always open to receiving guidance, instruction and clarification from the Holy Spirit from whatever source it comes. Blessings.

 

[marks]

Question:

When we commit sins in the flesh, do they matter?

Or, are they inconsequential because it is not who we really are (the new creation, our spirit-man) that is committing them?

I would say that a specific answer to these questions means that you are believing in and purporting gnosticism.

Yet another groundless accusation of gnosticism?

Seriously?

 

[justbyfaith]

Yet another groundless accusation of gnosticism?

Seriously?

It all depends on your answer to the question.

If you give the gnostic answer, well, you made your bed so lie in it.

 

[marks]

Question:

When we commit sins in the flesh, do they matter?

Or, are they inconsequential because it is not who we really are (the new creation, our spirit-man) that is committing them?

I would say that a specific answer to these questions means that you are believing in and purporting gnosticism.

Define what you mean by "inconsequential". Everything you do has a consequence. Do they matter in what way? That you've wasted the time? That you've got yourself thrown into hell?

?

 

[marks]

It all depends on your answer to the question.

If you give the gnostic answer, well, you made your bed so lie in it.

Please see #44.

 

[justbyfaith]

Define what you mean by "inconsequential". Everything you do has a consequence. Do they matter in what way? That you've wasted the time? That you've got yourself thrown into hell?

?

Is there a denial of what it says in Galatians 6:7-8 in your theology?

 

[marks]

Is there a denial of what it says in Galatians 6:7-8 in your theology?

No, how about you?

 

[justbyfaith]

No, how about you?

Is it a sin to sin according to the works of the flesh, or do we not sin because our real self is not involved in it?

 

[marks]

Is it a sin to sin according to the works of the flesh, or do we not sin because our real self is not involved in it?

What is your preoccupation with sin? Is it a sin to sin? This is what you are asking me? You are trying very hard, it seems to me, maybe I'm wrong, to pin guilt for sin onto the new man. Is that it?

Much love!

 

[Pearl]

Sin. It means not reaching God's standards, missing the target. Before we receive Jesus we are guilty of sin - not being good enough for God. After we're born again into God's family that type of sin is no longer a problem as it has been washed away by the blood of Jesus and now we are made clean as if we'd never sinned. Jesus has given us the ability to be reconciled to God and come into his presence as a sinless person - a saint.

Isaiah 44:22
I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist.

Throughout our born again lives though, we are sometimes guilty of doing things that we shouldn't. When we do, we do not lose our place in God's family but we need to go to Him to have our feet washed.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

But it isn't to priests that we need to confess our sinful mistakes but directly to God.

 

[justbyfaith]

What is your preoccupation with sin? Is it a sin to sin? This is what you are asking me? You are trying very hard, it seems to me, maybe I'm wrong, to pin guilt for sin onto the new man. Is that it?

Much love!

It just seems to me that if we sin with our flesh, we are sinning with our whole being.

This is not to pin guilt for sin on the new man, if we don't sin according to the flesh because of the new man.

 

[marks]

It just seems to me that if we sin with our flesh, we are sinning with our whole being.

Then you are ascribing sin to the new creation, which is created patterned after God Himself, and of which God says we are righteous and holy. If the new creation sins, where is our freedom? If our new creation, the child of God, were corrupted by sin? I don't believe that to be true. The Bible seems very clear on this to me.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

Then you are ascribing sin to the new creation, which is created patterned after God Himself, and of which God says we are righteous and holy. If the new creation sins, where is our freedom? If our new creation, the child of God, were corrupted by sin? I don't believe that to be true. The Bible seems very clear on this to me.

Much love!

No; in my estimation we do not sin with our new nature if we also do not sin with our flesh.

It is a gnostic belief to say that when we sin with our flesh we do not really sin because our "real self" isn't involved.

 

[marks]

No; in my estimation we do not sin with our new nature if we also do not sin with our flesh.

So is this to say that when your flesh sins, your new creation also sins? That your new creation is a sinner?

It is a gnostic belief to say that when we sin with our flesh we do not really sin because our "real self" isn't involved.

As you must realize by now . . . this is not the discussion. I'm not discussing with you your version of "gnosticism" as if it impacts Biblical doctrine. Let's discuss the doctrine instead of trying to "pin the tail on the Gnostic". You are misapplying the label. Gnostics believed that God created a god who got away from God, and created matter. It goes on from there. This is an entirely different thing. We've had this discussion before.

But you apparently believe your new creation is a sinner as well as the old. I do not. And I believe the Bible teaches the opposite to this.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

So is this to say that when your flesh sins, your new creation also sins? That your new creation is a sinner?

As you must realize by now . . . this is not the discussion. I'm not discussing with you your version of "gnosticism" as if it impacts Biblical doctrine. Let's discuss the doctrine instead of trying to "pin the tail on the Gnostic". You are misapplying the label. Gnostics believed that God created a god who got away from God, and created matter. It goes on from there. This is an entirely different thing. We've had this discussion before.

But you apparently believe your new creation is a sinner as well as the old. I do not. And I believe the Bible teaches the opposite to this.

Much love!

I do not believe that the new creation is a sinner; and neither do I believe that the flesh can sin and the "real you" be unaffected by that. When the flesh sins, all of you sins.

To say that the "real you" does not sin when your flesh sins is indeed gnostic teaching; and it does indeed have an effect on biblical doctrine and what we believe about it. We want to avoid heresy.

The new creation is not a sinner when a man is truly born again because the new nature (even the indwelling Holy Spirit) keeps us from sinning in the flesh. If we walk according to the Spirit, we do not walk according to the flesh (Romans 8:4).

And, therefore, if I sin in the flesh, I am not walking according to the Spirit. And my point is that we will be held accountable for the things that we do in the flesh; we cannot say that we did not really sin because the "real me" was not involved in the behaviour.

That is gnosticism.

 

[ChristisGod]

jbf you do not know or understand gnosticism in the same way you do not know or understand the Trinity and Deity of Christ. You have them all wrong.

 

[justbyfaith]

jbf you do not know or understand gnosticism in the same way you do not know or understand the Trinity and Deity of Christ. You have them all wrong.

I think that you have them all wrong, actually. I have portrayed them accurately.

But I know you...that you have made up your mind that you are going to be the one to come against me at every turn.

So, it is not that there is anything wrong with my thinking here...it is that you are simply coming against me in anything and everything that I am saying or am going to say.

You do this because I have offended you; the same way that Jesus offended the scribes and Pharisees.

You are reacting to me in the same manner that they did to Jesus.

And no, I am not saying that I am Jesus or anything of the sort.

 

[Yan]

I think many people were not following to what Jesus taught, Jesus give a continuous grace and bless to whosoever got attacked by evil spirit or the demonic force of this world, just like Job who got attacked by devil and stole everything he had on his life (Job 2:3-7). So, this is the reason why elders and the scribes were jealousy and envy to the sinners of why did Jesus always stayed with the sinners (Mark 2:13-17). Jesus saved them from the devils, while the scribes & pharisees always want to sacrifice those sinners. This is the difference between Jesus and the scribes & pharisees (John 10:11-18), Jesus show his love for mankind but elderly priests (the scribes & pharisees) didn't show such kind of protection to their own people and they let the sinners stay cursed or they won't heal them from the evil one.

 

[marks]

I do not believe that the new creation is a sinner; and neither do I believe that the flesh can sin and the "real you" be unaffected by that. When the flesh sins, all of you sins.

To say that the "real you" does not sin when your flesh sins is indeed gnostic teaching; and it does indeed have an effect on biblical doctrine and what we believe about it. We want to avoid heresy.

The new creation is not a sinner when a man is truly born again because the new nature (even the indwelling Holy Spirit) keeps us from sinning in the flesh. If we walk according to the Spirit, we do not walk according to the flesh (Romans 8:4).

And, therefore, if I sin in the flesh, I am not walking according to the Spirit. And my point is that we will be held accountable for the things that we do in the flesh; we cannot say that we did not really sin because the "real me" was not involved in the behaviour.

That is gnosticism.

You're saying that the new man both does and doesn't sin. I don't know what else to add at this point.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

You're saying that the new man both does and doesn't sin. I don't know what else to add at this point.

Much love!

No, I'm saying that the new man doesn't sin because when a man is truly born again he doesn't any longer commit sins of the flesh (Romans 8:4).