There Is No Purgatory. It Is Not In God's Character To Give 2nd Chances After We Leave Our Flesh

[Ezra]

With more rules, specific categories, less wild west....

you just have to watch how you reply to the poster calvinist .few in there toss around words like false teacher false doctrine

 

[Nondenom40]

you just have to watch how you reply to the poster calvinist .few in there toss around words like false teacher false doctrine

I don't normally go to those boards. I stick with the roman catholic boards. So if you never want to discuss calvanism you don't have to. There are rules about staying on topic, unlike here.

 

[jshiii]

Our God IS a consuming Fire.

Happy New Year Helen! Just so there is no confusion or ambiguity who we are talking about, whenever I mention God, I desperately try to remind myself that I need to qualify who God is to my readers. It always makes me nervous when I see "God" written by itself. I just want to be 100% sure and the readers also 100% who God is. So when you make the statement (which I do agree is a consuming fire), hope you don't mind if I add to it.. "Our God, Jesus Christ, is a consuming Fire." When I speak of God, I just always think it's appropriate and right to add Jesus Christ (right directly behind God, in all conversation..IMO). Because they are truly one and the same. :)


The Lord Jesus Christ ONLY, is Worthy of all our Praise and Worship!
Eternity is a Very long Time!
Satan Loves Distractions!

 

[jshiii]

My God is certainly all about second chances 70 x 70, in fact.

While we are in our physical (earthly) bodies, yes I agree! After we leave our physical (earthly) bodies, no second chances. Your spirit is either clothed with the spirit of Jesus Christ and you go directly in his presence or the other alternative is Hades to await eternal judgment, along with "The rich man." Don't be fooled, there is no middle ground in between. ;)

The Lord Jesus Christ ONLY, is Worthy of all our Praise and Worship!
Eternity is a Very long Time!
Satan Loves Distractions!

 

[jshiii]

CARM.ORG FORUMS

Enjoy

A lot of great resources at CARM, Gotquestions, DesiringGod and DavidJeremiah just to name a few. However, in all things, the Bible (my choice is the KJV, but do use NIV/ESV sometimes) is the FINAL Word, Authority and TRUTH.

If Catholics want to believe in "Purgatory", so be it. While you are being cleansed, those of us that believe it to be unbiblical, will already be clothed with Jesus Christ and in his Father's presence. Praise the Lord!

The Lord Jesus Christ ONLY, is Worthy of all our Praise and Worship!
Eternity is a Very long Time!
Satan Loves Distractions!

 

[Helen]

I just always think it's appropriate and right to add Jesus Christ (right directly behind God, in all conversation..IMO). Because they are truly one and the same. :)


The Lord Jesus Christ ONLY, is Worthy of all our Praise and Worship!
Eternity is a Very long Time!
Satan Loves Distractions!

Okay, got it. Thank you. I now get where you are coming from. :)
I was 'almost' there at one time also. I am not an "only".

Isa 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

I don't even pretend to understand the godhead... I am a bear of very little brain, just like Winnie The Pooh. :)

Bless you....H

 

[BreadOfLife]

If Catholics want to believe in "Purgatory", so be it. While you are being cleansed, those of us that believe it to be unbiblical, will already be clothed with Jesus Christ and in his Father's presence. Praise the Lord!

Whereas you may believe that you get to sneak into Heaven “covered” by the righteousness of Christ – the Bible teaches that we are actually MADE righteous so we can enter. It’s BECAUSE of what Christ did that we are purified. Rev. 21:27 says that NOTHING unclean or impure can enter Heaven.

Luther erroneously thought the same way you do, in his analogy of “snow-covered-dunghills”.
C.S. Lewis, on the other hand, although a Protestant, stated that the mercy of God DEMANDS Purgatory - which actually makes us pure.[/QUOTE]

 

[historyb]

If Catholics want to believe in "Purgatory", so be it. While you are being cleansed, those of us that believe it to be unbiblical, will already be clothed with Jesus Christ and in his Father's presence. Praise the Lord!

Catholics are not the only ones as I am not Catholic, though I believe as C.S Lewis says:

Mind you, the Reformers had good reasons for throwing doubt on "the Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory" as that Romish doctrine had then become. I don't mean merely the commercial scandal. If you turn from Dante's Purgatorio to the Sixteenth Century you will be appalled by the degradation. In Thomas More's Supplication of Souls Purgatory is simply temporary Hell. In it the souls are tormented by devils, whose presence is "more horrible and grievous to us than is the pain itself." Worse still, Fisher, in his Sermon on Psalm VI, says the tortures are so intense that the spirit who suffers them cannot, for pain, "remember God as he ought to do." In fact, the very etymology of the word purgatory has dropped out of sight. Its pains do not bring us nearer to God, but make us forget Him. It is a place not of purification but purely of retributive punishment.

The right view returns magnificently in Newman's Dream. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer "With its darkness to affront that light." Religion has reclaimed Purgatory.

Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, "It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy."? Should we not reply, "With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first." "It may hurt, you know"--"Even so, sir."

I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don't think suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. "No nonsense about merit." The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.

My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist's chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am "coming round", a voice will say, "Rinse your mouth out with this." This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But More and Fisher shall not persuade me that it will be disgusting and unhallowed.

CS Lewis Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, by C. S. Lewis

 

[Nondenom40]

Whereas you may believe that you get to sneak into Heaven “covered” by the righteousness of Christ – the Bible teaches that we are actually MADE righteous so we can enter. It’s BECAUSE of what Christ did that we are purified. Rev. 21:27 says that NOTHING unclean or impure can enter Heaven.

Luther erroneously thought the same way you do, in his analogy of “snow-covered-dunghills”.
C.S. Lewis, on the other hand, although a Protestant, stated that the mercy of God DEMANDS Purgatory - which actually makes us pure.

Against my better judgement by responding to someone that can't post without hurling insults, i'll say this. There is no purgatory for several reasons. The verse in Rev 21 is always trotted out by catholics with zero exegesis, zero context. Yet thats one of their major proof texts for the big P. Of course nothing unclean enters heaven. Who said it does? But its not YOU atoning for your own sin in purgatory. Its God doing all the cleaning and changing and purifying in our lives BEFORE we ever arrive!

Phil 3:21
21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself. NASB

Titus 2:14
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.NASB

1 Thess 3:13
13 so that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. NASB

1 Peter 5:10
10 And after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you. NASB

Jude 24
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, NASB

1 Cor 15:52
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. NASB

Its God, not you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Against my better judgement by responding to someone that can't post without hurling insults, i'll say this. There is no purgatory for several reasons. The verse in Rev 21 is always trotted out by catholics with zero exegesis, zero context. Yet thats one of their major proof texts for the big P. Of course nothing unclean enters heaven. Who said it does? But its not YOU atoning for your own sin in purgatory. Its God doing all the cleaning and changing and purifying in our lives BEFORE we ever arrive!

Its God, not you.

The mere fact that you posted this response is CLEAR evidence that you have absolutely NO grasp on the concept of Final Purification – OR Christ’s sacrifice.

It is ONLY because of what He did that we are able to become pure and perfect. We don’t get to “sneak” into Heaven in our filth just because we are “covered”.
We are MADE righteous and perfect before entering.

 

[Nondenom40]

The mere fact that you posted this response is CLEAR evidence that you have absolutely NO grasp on the concept of Final Purification – OR Christ’s sacrifice.

It is ONLY because of what He did that we are able to become pure and perfect. We don’t get to “sneak” into Heaven in our filth just because we are “covered”.
We are MADE righteous and perfect before entering.

I gave several verses which apparently you didn't read, or don't like. All say God does this in us. Not a shred of evidence to suggest you do it in purgatory.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Against my better judgement by responding to someone that can't post without hurling insults, i'll say this. There is no purgatory for several reasons. The verse in Rev 21 is always trotted out by catholics with zero exegesis, zero context. Yet thats one of their major proof texts for the big P. Of course nothing unclean enters heaven. Who said it does? But its not YOU atoning for your own sin in purgatory. Its God doing all the cleaning and changing and purifying in our lives BEFORE we ever arrive!

Its God, not you.

I read the verses you presented – but apparently YOU didn’t.

Phil 3:21, Titus 2:14, and 1 Thess. 3:13, are about God perfecting us. It doesn’t tell us HOW or WHEN.
1 Cor. 3:10-15, shows us the HOW and WHEN:

1 Cor. 3:10-15
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day (judgment) will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."

Jude 24 is talking about God’s ability to keep us from stumbling. It’s a word of encouragement – NOT a guarantee that we won’t stumble.

The context of 1 Pet. 5:10 and 1 Cor. 15:52 are talking about the 2nd Coming of Christ and those who are alive at the end of the world.

NONE of these verses you presented detail the process of Final Purification as outlined in 1 Cor. 3:10-15.

 

[jshiii]

Forgive me if I step on some toes. It's saturday night and I feel like sharing some truths. God decided to withdraw his hand from holding Lucifer (before he sinned). See...Lucifer was only PERFECT because of God and God holding him in perfection. God is perfect, Just and Holy! Lucifer was perfect in every way. Then God gave him free reign over his conscious. Free to choose and do as he would like. Lucifer became prideful. Lucifer said, "Let us become LIKE God." Notice, Lucifer knew no one could ever become better than God. So he settled, "Let us become Like God." This was unforgivable. No chances of ever returning to God's perfect Love and Grace. We know the rest of the story. God already knew what was gonna happen and was gonna use this situation with Lucifer to show the depths of his LOVE. There are no second chances with God, spiritually apart from our flesh. Humans are fortunate to have multiple chances to choose God. His Grace is Amazing. When it comes to purgatory, I sadfully say, this does not conform with God's Love, it is not justified by God's character. One chance only to choose. Those you pray for, that you say are in purgatory, that have left this world have either accepted Christ (God) as their Savior or haven't. No second chances after your spirit leaves your physical body. If they haven't chosen Jesus Christ as their Savior, they are forever lost to their Guilt and apart from God's LOVE FOREVER. So please don't preach purgatory, it just leads more unbelieving humans to a false hope!

#ThereAreNoSecondChancesNoPurgatory
#ChooseJesusNowWhileYouStillCan
#GetToKnowJesusHisFathersHouseHasManyMansions
#IfGodGaveSecondChancesHeWouldForegiveLucifer

The Lord Jesus Christ ONLY, is Worthy of all our Praise and Worship!
Eternity is a Very long Time!
Satan Loves Distractions!

@JTH1234

 

[teamventure]

So you say...very loving..you sound just like Father God.

Time will tell brother, time will tell, and we shall see what we shall see.
God will not lose 92% of all humanity..... and then shout " To hell with them...now let you who are left ...party". Is that what you get out of God beautiful bible?

Actually thats what you get out of one verse. Narrow is the road to life and few who find it while broad is the way to destruction.

Also note the flood account. Only Noah and his family were saved.

How do you account for these two things in light of your view that most will be saved?

 

[teamventure]

Yea, I'm totally a New Testament believer, not "stuck in the old testament.".

Wait a minute, this doesn't make sense to me. If you believe than believing in all of scripture is included including the old testament. (The cerimonial and civil laws were only for Jews to begin with so that's another thing)
But ALL of scripture is God breathed and profitable and the old testament is relevant today because Gods word is eternal.

 

[aspen]

Who told you Purgatory is a second chance?

 

[amadeus]

Who told you Purgatory is a second chance?

Perhaps if we are not now in hell, we are then, all of us, [except of course anyone has overcome all of the world as did Jesus] already in Purgatory, a place of purging, of being purged, of being perfected... But God did provide and is providing for that now, is He not?

Is that not what purging means... cleaning out, perfecting... etc.

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;" Eph 4:11-14

 

[Gregory]

Just remember, the Law of Moses was superceded by the Law of Christ. What is the Law of Christ. We find it in:
Galatians 6:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

What is the centerpiece of the Law of Christ? Read the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians: Especially read the bolded.
1 Corinthians 13 King James Version (KJV)
13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Paul is telling us in this chapter that if you do not have 'charity' you have nothing. No Jesus. No grace. No anything. So how are we doing with our 'charity' these days? Read 4 - 8 to get an idea how you are doing.