This really grabbed me today!

[keithr]

So you think Peter listened to the unclean spirits moreso than John and his brother Andrew?

No, I have no reason to suppose that. Peter was just the first person to answer Jesus' question “But who do you say that I am?” (Matthew 16:15). That doesn't mean that he was the only one of the 12 disciples that believed that.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No. I don’t know what else to say. No. A plan or script did not leave the glory He shared with God from before the world. A plan or script did not empty Himself and become nothing. That’s human reasoning.
Put all the verses in front of you. Put the verses and passages all in front of you at once on different pages. You cannot come to what you have come to if you do. You just can’t.

Okay, I would say the same thing to a Trinitarian. If one sets aside the creeds, which are not inspired scripture, one can not conclude that "the word" is a pre-existent spirit being given the New Testament alone.

For a moment, let's set aside the topic under discussion to consider the principle of "textual dissonance", which is a technique we learned to help us know when our interpretation of the Bible needed work. As Bible students, the principle of textual dissonance is a tool we use to judge our work, whether we have rightly understood the text or not. What is textual dissonance?

Beginning Bible students often run across statements that seem to oppose or remain discordant with the rest of scripture. Most of the time, we ignore such verses, even though they are dissonant with respect to our subject text. Bible students need to maintain a high degree of patience, integrity, and discipline in order to acknowledge and deal with statements or passages that seem to contradict the proposed understanding of a text.

Over these next few months, I encourage you to spend time thinking about phrases, and sentences that seem to contradict the Trinity Doctrine. Don't brush over them or ignore them anymore. I know you will find them, or you will discover them by chance as you think about other Biblical subjects.

Consider this passage for instance,

1Corinthians 5:27-28
For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Here Paul seems to say that God and Jesus are NOT coequal. The Son will be subjected to God. This text is discordant with the Creed, which says that each member of the Trinity is coequal. Textual dissonance is our tool to help us evaluate our understanding. Don't allow seemingly discordant text stand unexamined.

Now, I am not your teacher. You are not obligated to believe what I say. I am your brother, attempting to share what I know. But if I am wrong, I hope you see the spirit from which I write. We will both continue to bow our knees before the Lord and worship him only.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I do not disagree, but too many people...it seems to me... argue for the sake of winning a bit of glory for themselves rather than really in a search for truth, whatever it is. When a person has already decided that he has it and anyone else is wrong where does that lead? God is the only One who always already has it and knows that He does.

As I say, I typically avoid this subject because I know how divisive it can be. For some reason, I felt compelled to enter this conversation because it was started by a dear sister, whom I have come to respect over these many months. Also, I think this subject matter may be highly relevant as history draws to a close. Anyway, thanks for your encouraging words Amadeus.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I watched some of The Nuts and Bolts of Sin. I don’t understand why you would call self deception the most egregious sin there is. Can it be forgiven? Yes. So it’s not the most egregious sin, is it…?

All things can be forgiven except blaspheme of the Holy Spirit as our Lord has said. But, our Lord also said that one must repent and turn to God in contrition and confession. Forgiveness is granted to those who seek it.

At the same time, those who are self-deceived typically believe that they are innocent, having done nothing for which they need to be forgiven. As long as they are unwilling to admit the truth about themselves, such people will not seek or be granted forgiveness.

Consider the parable of the Pharisee and the tax gatherer. Luke 18:9-14 The Pharisee was self-deceived. He believed that he was not like other men. Whereas the tax gatherer admitted himself to be a sinner and asked for forgiveness. Jesus points out that the tax gatherer went home justified.

In actuality, the only deadly sin that can never be forgiven is blaspheme of the Holy Spirit as our Lord has said. Most of us don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit directly, but those who suffer under willful ignorance or willful unbelief, are in danger of damnation also. But sometimes this attitude is hard to see in ourselves.

Self-deception is most egregious because it is extraordinarily distinguished as enmity against God, specifically enmity against the truth. Why does someone deny the truth about themselves? Why does a women deny being a woman? Why does a woman despise motherhood? Why does a man deny being a man? Why does he deny fatherhood? Why does he deny his role as protector?

Why does a sinner deny being a sinner? Why do we pretend to be innocent or righteous or loving at times when we are not? Why do we use unbalanced scales? Why, when I hurt you, do I want forgiveness, but when you hurt me I want justice? If I am a believer, why do I excuse my sin, and rationalize my behavior?

Perhaps we deceive ourselves more often than we think, or want to admit?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Okay, I would say the same thing to a Trinitarian.

I have to stop you at your first sentence to once again say, I am not a trinitarian. You keep bringing it up in conversation between you and I, which is odd, because you earlier seemed surprised I was a “heretic hunter” but you are the one who thinks the trinity doctrine is heresy and can’t stop bringing it up, even in conversation with a NONtrinitarian.
Now I’ll read the rest of your post.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

If one sets aside the creeds, which are not inspired scripture, one can not conclude that "the word" is a pre-existent spirit being given the New Testament alone.

We have both discussed how we didn’t go to a church or know any doctrines of a church but just had a bible. I myself watched Mel Gibsons movie about a week after I read the gospels and fell in love with Jesus. I forget if it was on pay per view or a channel like HBO but it was so distressing to me that I told Jesus I loved Him but didn’t love God and was angry at Him because He could have found a better way than allowing what happened, so I told Jesus I would only talk to Him. Then, since the fourth gospel of John was the one that, when I got to it, made me fall solidly in love, I read it again. And from the first chapter, I sat in dumbfounded silence for a long, long time, incapable of even getting up from my chair, because I saw by John that Jesus WAS God and I saw that John was purposefully drawing my eyes back to the opening book of Genesis (which was the only book of the OT I had yet read). I just saw it all, that John called Him that first light spoken of before the sun was even created, and that THAT light, which was Jesus, was Who and what everything created was created through and by.
So I saw that before I knew a single thing about any creed or doctrine. So I didn’t have any creed TO set aside - I didn’t KNOW any creed. So when you say that if you set aside the creeds you can’t possibly come to or conclude that Jesus existed before He was born, you’re wrong, because I came to it. Now, you could claim that I came to it on my own by human reasoning but who on earth could reason that all out? It was not a process of reasoning. It was just…suddenly THERE. I suddenly saw it. There WAS no reasoning involved. I just saw that John was talking about that first light mentioned.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It was some months later that I ran across an online forum, and in my naivety, I supposed everyone there would have seen what I saw, so I was confused when I found that some hadn’t.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

All things can be forgiven except blaspheme of the Holy Spirit as our Lord has said. But, our Lord also said that one must repent and turn to God in contrition and confession. Forgiveness is granted to those who seek it.

At the same time, those who are self-deceived typically believe that they are innocent, having done nothing for which they need to be forgiven. As long as they are unwilling to admit the truth about themselves, such people will not seek or be granted forgiveness.

Consider the parable of the Pharisee and the tax gatherer. Luke 18:9-14 The Pharisee was self-deceived. He believed that he was not like other men. Whereas the tax gatherer admitted himself to be a sinner and asked for forgiveness. Jesus points out that the tax gatherer went home justified.

In actuality, the only deadly sin that can never be forgiven is blaspheme of the Holy Spirit as our Lord has said. Most of us don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit directly, but those who suffer under willful ignorance or willful unbelief, are in danger of damnation also. But sometimes this attitude is hard to see in ourselves.

Self-deception is most egregious because it is extraordinarily distinguished as enmity against God, specifically enmity against the truth. Why does someone deny the truth about themselves? Why does a women deny being a woman? Why does a woman despise motherhood? Why does a man deny being a man? Why does he deny fatherhood? Why does he deny his role as protector?

Why does a sinner deny being a sinner? Why do we pretend to be innocent or righteous or loving at times when we are not? Why do we use unbalanced scales? Why, when I hurt you, do I want forgiveness, but when you hurt me I want justice? If I am a believer, why do I excuse my sin, and rationalize my behavior?

Perhaps we deceive ourselves more often than we think, or want to admit?

We are raised to deny what we plainly see and to cover it all up. It’s a defense mechanism of sorts. It’s what is normal to us because we were taught it from a very young age. It’s a blindness and self deception, yes. It’s below the level of full consciousness. It’s a living below the veil of full consciousness. He brings us out of it and shows us to reject that useless way of life we were taught and to live honestly and openly.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Why does a sinner deny being a sinner? Why do we pretend to be innocent or righteous or loving at times when we are not? Why do we use unbalanced scales? Why, when I hurt you, do I want forgiveness, but when you hurt me I want justice? If I am a believer, why do I excuse my sin, and rationalize my behavior?

THIS is what you need to expand and flesh out. THIS is how you could help men who have received Gods Spirit but are still hindered. An entire BOOK could be written on it. We have received the Spirit yet still continue in all the coverup. You could break men free of it. It’s a whole…system of passive aggression so as to maintain plausible deniability, lying about our motives (even in stupid things like, oh I wasn’t mad, oh I didn’t mean anything by it) and on and on.

 

[Brakelite]

We have both discussed how we didn’t go to a church or know any doctrines of a church but just had a bible. I myself watched Mel Gibsons movie about a week after I read the gospels and fell in love with Jesus. I forget if it was on pay per view or a channel like HBO but it was so distressing to me that I told Jesus I loved Him but didn’t love God and was angry at Him because He could have found a better way than allowing what happened, so I told Jesus I would only talk to Him. Then, since the fourth gospel of John was the one that, when I got to it, made me fall solidly in love, I read it again. And from the first chapter, I sat in dumbfounded silence for a long, long time, incapable of even getting up from my chair, because I saw by John that Jesus WAS God and I saw that John was purposefully drawing my eyes back to the opening book of Genesis (which was the only book of the OT I had yet read). I just saw it all, that John called Him that first light spoken of before the sun was even created, and that THAT light, which was Jesus, was Who and what everything created was created through and by.
So I saw that before I knew a single thing about any creed or doctrine. So I didn’t have any creed TO set aside - I didn’t KNOW any creed. So when you say that if you set aside the creeds you can’t possibly come to or conclude that Jesus existed before He was born, you’re wrong, because I came to it. Now, you could claim that I came to it on my own by human reasoning but who on earth could reason that all out? It was not a process of reasoning. It was just…suddenly THERE. I suddenly saw it. There WAS no reasoning involved. I just saw that John was talking about that first light mentioned.

After 10 or more years as a backslidden pentecostal Christian, my marriage in danger of imploding, my children already in that process, I came to Jesus to do with me what you describe... What you were naturally ignorant of seeking light, I did what our good friend @amadeus recommends so often... Going to the lower room voluntarily, to start afresh... Go back to the beginning and teach me as of I was a new born babe needing milk. Why would I do that? Because I had to many confusing doubts and questions over commonly held doctrines that my Catholic upbringing, and my more recent time in pentecostal environments, had been teaching. We were told they were 'mysteries' that had to be accepted by faith. Logic, reasoning, intellectual acceptability weren't to be entertained as if God was saying... Believe everything you are told but first leave your brains at the door. I didn't want that. I believe there was, somewhere, a line of reasonable and logical chain of belief that made sense and in which there were no contradictions or missing connections.
My questions mostly centered on prophecy. But as I surrendered further to God's leading, trusting Him to reveal as I could take it in, truths and answers to questions I had never considered asking.
Like the trinity.
The process of Salvation.
The comparative roles of faith, grace, obedience and works.
But my far greater understanding of those issues, including prophecy came after one particular issue was resolved. The question that everyone seems to want to ignore. The one the vast majority of people are seemingly quite content to accept a mediocre and insufficient qualitative apprehension of the depth and importance of the question...a situation wherein people are seemingly happy to accept the contradictions and shallow superficial answers that they use to justify the status quo. The Sabbath.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

After 10 or more years as a backslidden pentecostal Christian, my marriage in danger of imploding, my children already in that process, I came to Jesus to do with me what you describe... What you were naturally ignorant of seeking light, I did what our good friend @amadeus recommends so often... Going to the lower room voluntarily, to start afresh... Go back to the beginning and teach me as of I was a new born babe needing milk. Why would I do that? Because I had to many confusing doubts and questions over commonly held doctrines that my Catholic upbringing, and my more recent time in pentecostal environments, had been teaching. We were told they were 'mysteries' that had to be accepted by faith. Logic, reasoning, intellectual acceptability weren't to be entertained as if God was saying... Believe everything you are told but first leave your brains at the door. I didn't want that. I believe there was, somewhere, a line of reasonable and logical chain of belief that made sense and in which there were no contradictions or missing connections.
My questions mostly centered on prophecy. But as I surrendered further to God's leading, trusting Him to reveal as I could take it in, truths and answers to questions I had never considered asking.
Like the trinity.
The process of Salvation.
The comparative roles of faith, grace, obedience and works.
But my far greater understanding of those issues, including prophecy came after one particular issue was resolved. The question that everyone seems to want to ignore. The one the vast majority of people are seemingly quite content to accept a mediocre and insufficient qualitative apprehension of the depth and importance of the question...a situation wherein people are seemingly happy to accept the contradictions and shallow superficial answers that they use to justify the status quo. The Sabbath.

Yes! And a never coming to the question of why we can’t or don’t move mountains! Why don’t we see THAT?
It’s very encouraging to me to see by you that He CAN remove leaven that has been swallowed. You were still able to come like a little child and have that all removed.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I have to stop you at your first sentence to once again say, I am not a trinitarian. You keep bringing it up in conversation between you and I, which is odd, because you earlier seemed surprised I was a “heretic hunter” but you are the one who thinks the trinity doctrine is heresy and can’t stop bringing it up, even in conversation with a NONtrinitarian.
Now I’ll read the rest of your post.

I'm sorry about that. I didn't mean to imply that YOU are a Trinitarian. In my original post to you I was saying that the passage you cited was worded in such a way that it promoted false doctrine. In the course of our conversation, the subject matter turned toward the Trinity Doctrine and so I am not arguing with you personally, but my argument is against the Trinity Doctrine as a doctrine. I wanted to contrast my belief with that of the Trinity Doctrine, not to give a polemic argument against you. Please forgive me Sister. I'm sorry.

 

[CadyandZoe]

We have both discussed how we didn’t go to a church or know any doctrines of a church but just had a bible. I myself watched Mel Gibsons movie about a week after I read the gospels and fell in love with Jesus. I forget if it was on pay per view or a channel like HBO but it was so distressing to me that I told Jesus I loved Him but didn’t love God and was angry at Him because He could have found a better way than allowing what happened, so I told Jesus I would only talk to Him. Then, since the fourth gospel of John was the one that, when I got to it, made me fall solidly in love, I read it again. And from the first chapter, I sat in dumbfounded silence for a long, long time, incapable of even getting up from my chair, because I saw by John that Jesus WAS God and I saw that John was purposefully drawing my eyes back to the opening book of Genesis (which was the only book of the OT I had yet read). I just saw it all, that John called Him that first light spoken of before the sun was even created, and that THAT light, which was Jesus, was Who and what everything created was created through and by.
So I saw that before I knew a single thing about any creed or doctrine. So I didn’t have any creed TO set aside - I didn’t KNOW any creed. So when you say that if you set aside the creeds you can’t possibly come to or conclude that Jesus existed before He was born, you’re wrong, because I came to it. Now, you could claim that I came to it on my own by human reasoning but who on earth could reason that all out? It was not a process of reasoning. It was just…suddenly THERE. I suddenly saw it. There WAS no reasoning involved. I just saw that John was talking about that first light mentioned.

I am touched by your witness and it is very compelling. I hate to go on from here; you said it so well. We both share a love of Jesus and I resonate with everything you said here. In a way I am sad that I hurt you or challenged you, but after reading this, I can only thank God that he gave you the opportunity to express such a profound message. Keep going sister. Never give up.

 

[CadyandZoe]

THIS is what you need to expand and flesh out. THIS is how you could help men who have received Gods Spirit but are still hindered. An entire BOOK could be written on it. We have received the Spirit yet still continue in all the coverup. You could break men free of it. It’s a whole…system of passive aggression so as to maintain plausible deniability, lying about our motives (even in stupid things like, oh I wasn’t mad, oh I didn’t mean anything by it) and on and on.

Thanks for the encouragement sister. I would very much like to do just as you suggest and I will try, Lord willing.

I began with the following Video. Maybe the Lord will lead me to do more.

 

[Brakelite]

Yes! And a never coming to the question of why we can’t or don’t move mountains! Why don’t we see THAT?
It’s very encouraging to me to see by you that He CAN remove leaven that has been swallowed. You were still able to come like a little child and have that all removed.

That's the self deception @CadyandZoe was talking about. My Catholic upbringing had a lot to do with that. I remember well that when I left the Catholic faith in favor of the local Assembly of God, the first few months I was constantly having to exercise faith in God's leading, denying the niggling guilt trips I had grown up with regarding the sacraments, particularly the "mortal sin" aspects of missing mass and not believing in the "holy eucharist". For me to leave the church I was very aware that I was on a similar path taken by Luther. I was a proscribed heretic worthy not just of hell, but to be executed forth with by the church's agents...a Catholic controlled government. That of course doesn't take place these days nor did it 45 years ago... At least not in NZ. If I were living in Catholic controlled Bosnia in the 70s, or Portugal, Spain perhaps, or south or central America, perhaps there may have been some repercussions. It takes faith and a lot of trust to transition to an entirely new faith paradigm. Which is why starting from scratch is the only honest way to go. If we are deceived at all, we don't know it. Better to lay everything at the feet of Jesus, right at the kick off, letting Truth reveal itself/Himself as we are able to accept it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I am touched by your witness and it is very compelling. I hate to go on from here; you said it so well. We both share a love of Jesus and I resonate with everything you said here. In a way I am sad that I hurt you or challenged you, but after reading this, I can only thank God that he gave you the opportunity to express such a profound message. Keep going sister. Never give up.

You have in absolutely no way hurt me. You haven’t hurt me, made me angry, or any other negative thing!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm sorry about that. I didn't mean to imply that YOU are a Trinitarian. In my original post to you I was saying that the passage you cited was worded in such a way that it promoted false doctrine. In the course of our conversation, the subject matter turned toward the Trinity Doctrine and so I am not arguing with you personally, but my argument is against the Trinity Doctrine as a doctrine. I wanted to contrast my belief with that of the Trinity Doctrine, not to give a polemic argument against you. Please forgive me Sister. I'm sorry.

You know…although I have never seen the trinity doctrine, (because I cannot see God, who is Spirit, as a separate Spirit than the Holy Spirit) as far as doctrines go, it is not among the severely damaging ones. If someone can see that Jesus is God, I don’t take fear for them. I know a lot of men use the doctrine to claim you are not saved if you don’t see it, but that’s ridiculous to us who know darn well Gods Spirit is in us.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It’s been so wonderful talking with you guys this morning that I hate to have to leave. I need to go do some work. Later guys!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Thanks for the encouragement sister. I would very much like to do just as you suggest and I will try, Lord willing.

I began with the following Video. Maybe the Lord will lead me to do more.

grrr…I’ll have to listen to it later. I still haven’t got through nuts and bolts because my big mouth had to stop and discuss “most egregious.” And so much has come to mind to talk about with you guys and I’ll probably forget it by tonight!

 

[Brakelite]

Copied from a previous post of mine from 2 years ago...The following expresses not only my own personal testimony, but how I believe Sola scriptura ought to be exercised.
To develop a healthy scepticism toward our own beliefs and values.
Trust the scriptures more than any of our current understanding of any doctrine or teaching
To determine to live more truthfully in accordance to the scriptures.
It was because of my willingness to approach God with a heart that completely distrusted self... That was sceptical of what I had been taught in the past regarding faith and practice... That was determined to accept truth as revealed in the scriptures regardless of what was popularly taught in the churches that has led me to where I am today. I believe that only as we have such a like attitude of self doubt and faith toward God that we can avoid error and expose deception.