This really grabbed me today!

[CadyandZoe]

Not the way John uses it it isn’t!
The word became flesh!
So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.

Are you reading John or an English translation?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Although I’m not a trinitarian, this IS a good reason to be suspicious of it, or to at least be suspicious of the men who would kill others over it. It’s the thief who comes to kill and destroy, not men who are led by the Spirit or claim to walk IN the Spirit and hear from God.

Right-on sister. Jesus tells us that we will know them by their fruits.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Are you reading John or an English translation?

I am quoting the book of John in an English translation, because English is my language.

 

[CadyandZoe]

For the word of God is alive (living) and powerful (and active). Things are not said to be alive. Things can be powerful and actively move, like a bulldozer for instance, but things are not living and alive.

In that context, I believe "logos" refers to God's promise. The Bible often speaks about the word of God, in contexts where the promise of God is in view. God keeps his word. His word doesn't return to him void. and etc.

In essence, Paul is talking about the promises contained in the gospel. These promises are able to expose me, so that I and others can see whether or not I am a genuine believer. Just as a sharp sword reveals what is under the skin, the gospel reveals what is in my heart.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh I just can’t today. It doesn’t have to be muddied like this. There’s no reason for it. If it’s not helping to build up the trust of others and yourself, there’s no reason for it. What the mind likes to focus on and finds to occupy itself with is utterly useless if it’s not helping to build up our trust and move us to unity in the Spirit so the whole body does not suffer.
But we will occupy our whole mind and energy on arguing over what the word “word” means and fail to see that we are being distracted by silly brickmaking so we will never say, wait a minute…why can’t we move mountains…?

 

[CadyandZoe]

All who argue against the Triune Godhead use the same argument. Three cannot be one. It's a cognitive bias, and causes you to read the Bible in a way that must conform to your bias, "Three cannot be One."

Much love!

On the contrary, the Trinity doctrine is a contradiction. I dare say that some Christians see the contradictions but say nothing because affirmation of the Trinity Doctrine is required to be a member in good standing of most churches.

I read and studied the Bible for many years and the idea of a Trinity had never occurred to me. It wasn't until I started an apologetics ministry, studying Christian apologetics that became familiar with the doctrine. Once I found out that the Trinity doctrine was an official Christian dogma, I attempted to learn it, making myself an expert on it so that I might defend it online. That's when I discovered that the Trinity doctrine made no sense and was contradictory. I found out that the doctrine is error and false. There is no Biblical support for the Trinity Doctrine, only verses taken out of context. I watched as many people tried to explain it and failed.

One day I decided to be honest with the text and I abandoned the Trinity Doctrine as false teaching. After that, I stopped talking about it. Only on rare occasions do I bring up the subject. My concern in this thread is the subject translation, which is filled with all kinds of false doctrine and so I couldn't sit by and allow it to stand. I had to say something. After this thread, I will most likely stay silent on this subject for many months.

 

[CadyandZoe]

John 17:5 KJV
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

This is simple. And we should not drain the meaning from it.

Much love!

Yes, the verse is simple, but the meaning is ambiguous outside of the Upper-Room Discourse.

 

[Matthias]

Not the way John uses it it isn’t!
The word became flesh!
So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.

Had you been on the Mayflower back in the day you would have been reading the Geneva Bible.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men. And that light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.”

(John 1:1-5)

http://www.genevabible.org/files/Geneva_Bible/New_Testament/John.pdf

 

[CadyandZoe]

Okay well, once again, I’m not a trinitarian. Or a heretic hunter. I simply know that Jesus was God.

Me too. :) Jesus is God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

God the Father is "the Head" or authority over God the Son. But they are both God as noted in Hebrews 1:8,9 (and many other passages). But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor 11:3) There is a unique Father-Son relationship within the Godhead, and we are simply expected to believe this. Not try to figure it out with our human limitations.

I agree that God and Jesus have a father-son relationship. This is indisputable. And as Paul says, the Father is the head of Christ, which is contrary to the creed. The Father and Son are NOT co-equal according to Paul.

I do not agree with your view that a true doctrine would be a mystery beyond human comprehension. Every argument that I have read in favor of the Trinity Doctrine was written by good Christian men and women who believed they understood it; AND they believed that a rational explanation was not only possible but teachable.

I do not agree with their conclusions, but we all agree that a Biblical doctrine is knowable.

 

[amadeus]

All who argue against the Triune Godhead use the same argument. Three cannot be one. It's a cognitive bias, and causes you to read the Bible in a way that must conform to your bias, "Three cannot be One."

Much love!

Why argue for either side? Who does that edify? Is a perfect understanding of who or what God is required in order to approach Him more closely or to please Him?

 

[marks]

Why argue for either side? Who does that edify? Is a perfect understanding of who or what God is required in order to approach Him more closely or to please Him?

When I say, argue, I don't mean like to fight, rather, present arguments. And why do any of us do any of that?

But when we see Him, we will be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. Do we not want to see Him more clearly? Follow Him more nearly? Love Him more dearly?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes, the verse is simple, but the meaning is ambiguous outside of the Upper-Room Discourse.

The meaning is plain, I would say. But not everyone wants to accept it's saying.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I agree that God and Jesus have a father-son relationship. This is indisputable. And as Paul says, the Father is the head of Christ, which is contrary to the creed. The Father and Son are NOT co-equal according to Paul.

I guess every man has to determine for himself how much honor and worship they should give to the One who willingly and on purpose emptied Himself and became nothing for them and left the glory He shared to suffer horribly just to save them and have them forever.
As for God, He says every knee in heaven and on earth will bow to Him and has sat Him on His very own throne with Him and says, listen to Him, He is eternal life and the Light that lights every man coming into the world.
If you have decided it is right to teach others about Him that He is not equal with God but is God, I can’t stop you. But I think you should consider very carefully what you say about Him to others because since you have said you see and can teach others, there’s a stern warning - 41“If you were blind,” Jesusreplied, “you would not be guilty of sin. Butsince you claim you can see, your guiltremains.”

 

[Johann]

Logos:word is a thing.

Never mind.
J.

 

[Johann]

The term "Christ" comes from the Greek word "christos", which means "annointed". The term "Messiah" comes from the Hebrew word "mashiach", which also means "annointed." The Hebrew scriptures talk about the Messiah, the New Testament scriptures talk about the Christ. They mean the same thing.

Thank you for the "lesson""
J.

 

[marks]

On the contrary, the Trinity doctrine is a contradiction.

For myself, I find the Trinity doctrine central to understanding how God justifies us in Christ's death, giving us through His Spirit eternal life. I find the surety of this understanding - God Himself incarnated in a man, to provide His body in sacrificial death for us, that we can join with Him, and be filled with Him in His Holy Spirit. Actually united to Him, our Loving Creator, in mystical union, that we be one, even as they are One. An amazing truth! One which assures us of the power of a new life in Christ. We are alive in the spirit because we are alive in Christ, It's God's Own Spirit life that gives us our life, and forever will. Not like Adam. Like the Last Adam.

There is no Biblical support for the Trinity Doctrine, only verses taken out of context.

I find that when I look at the great number of verses that give us information on Father, Son, and Spirit, I find the Trinity doctrine inescapable. There are quite a number of things that are attributed to each, did you know that? God raised Jesus from the dead, that is plainly stated. Jesus also raised Himself. The Spirit raised Him. Each is true. None conflict. The same is true of creation, salvation, many more.

For me this is more a matter of How we think about God. I don't think we have to understand all the things the Bible says, but we should be reading it for what it says and not what it does not say, and we should allow our minds to be formed according to what we read.

When we read that the Word became flesh, we know this is Jesus, and when we read God was the Word, we know this is Jesus, and we think of Him accordingly, and as we proclaim with Thomas, My Lord and my God, we don't have to somehow explain away these texts as something us, even IF we have no idea how the Father is God, and Jesus is God.

And when we read, the Holy Spirit said to separate out Paul and Barnabas for the work they have to do, and that Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, lying to God, again, we don't need to look for some hidden "real" meaning, we just accept it as written, and allow our minds to be formed.

The things I see people point to as contradictions I don't see that way. For instance, Isn't the Son worshiping the Father God worshiping Himself? The Son emptied Himself and took on flesh, and all that came with it, including the commandments, and including the proper human relationship with God. Jeremiah spoke of the LORD being God of all flesh, and Jesus took on flesh. He really did humble Himself, taking the form of a servant.

I realize that God must enlighten our minds. I try to encourage that we read the text in what it says, and accept those things it says. When we find what seems contradiction, find the harmony that preserves the meaning held in all the passages.

Much love!

 

[keithr]

It was before that:

Jhn 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
Jhn 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
<snip>
Jhn 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

That reveals Jesus as the Messiah, the sacrifice that God provided, but it doesn't reveal Jesus as the Son of God, which is what the demons referred to him as, although Jesus was trying to keep that fact under wraps at that time:

Mark 3:11-12 (WEB):

(11) The unclean spirits, whenever they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, “You are the Son of God!”
(12) He sternly warned them that they should not make him known.​

Luke 4:41 (WEB):

(41) Demons also came out of many, crying out, and saying, “You are the Christ, the Son of God!” Rebuking them, he didn’t allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.​

1 John 5:5-12 (WEB):

(5) Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

(9) If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is God’s testimony which he has testified concerning his Son.
(10) He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who doesn’t believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning his Son.
(11) The testimony is this, that God gave to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
(12) He who has the Son has the life. He who doesn’t have God’s Son doesn’t have the life.​

God's testimony:
At Jesus' baptism, Matthew 3:17 (WEB):

(17) Behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”​

At the transfiguration, Matthew 17:5 (WEB):

(5) While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them. Behold, a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to him.”​

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not the way John uses it it isn’t!
The word became flesh!
So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.

Yes, the word became flesh. I agree. I disagree with the Trinity Doctrine, which teaches that "the Word", capital 'W' is the second person of the Godhead, and it was the second person of the Godhead who came to earth in human form. This idea is foreign to the New Testament, in my view.

Rather, John's point is that God began the world according to a plan (word small 'w'), or a script, or something like that. And at an opportune time, that plan, that script was transformed from an abstract, hypothetical plan into a living, breathing, real, human being.

 

[marks]

Yes, the word became flesh. I agree. I disagree with the Trinity Doctrine, which teaches that "the Word", capital 'W' is the second person of the Godhead, and it was the second person of the Godhead who came to earth in human form. This idea is foreign to the New Testament, in my view.

Rather, John's point is that God began the world according to a plan (word small 'w'), or a script, or something like that. And at an opportune time, that plan, that script was transformed from an abstract, hypothetical plan into a living, breathing, real, human being.

The Word became flesh . . . and tabernacles among us. The Word tabernacled among us.

John 1:14 LITV
And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth.

And we beheld Whose glory? The Word.

1 Peter 1:23 KJV
23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Much love!