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Featured Three (3) Advents?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by ScottA, Dec 4, 2019.

  1. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    How absurd!

    Sorry if you have been mislead, but three "advents" by definition would be impossible. First the flesh, then the spirit--that's all. There is no third element or arrival.
     
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  2. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Other than the whole not I that live, but Christ of course.
    Which I guess would also classify as Spirit.
     
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  3. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if I'd call them "advents," but I see three ways of being born illustrated in the life of Jesus. All three are announced from Heaven.

    Flesh: Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
    11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.


    Water: Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Spirit: Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

    The question some may have is if being born of water and born of the Spirit are the same thing. I think the life of Jesus shows they are not.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Can all those born of water move like the wind as Ezekiel did? If not, I'd be reluctant to say they'd been completely born already of the Spirit.

    8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
     
  4. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    What is absurd is for anyone to suggest that the advents have anything to do with just the flesh (either the body or the sin nature) and the spirit. Sounds rather Gnostic.

    1. The word "advent" does NOT appear in the Bible. The Greek word is parousia which means "appearing" (and may apply to either the Rapture or the Second Coming, depending on context).

    2. The "Advent Season" is a Catholic invention connected with Christmas, and the traditionalist churches use this term. Other churches call it the "Christmas Season", but literally Christmas = Christ's Mass (a Catholic concept).

    3. The first coming of Christ is generally termed "the Incarnation of Christ" which means that God became a Man and took a human body ("flesh"). This also confirms the fact that unlike the Gnostics, God and Christ do not regard the human body as intrinsically evil. Indeed the glorified bodies of the saints will be in Heaven (the New Jerusalem) eternally.

    4. The Second Coming of Christ is NOT generally called an "Advent" but His coming with power and great glory. A time of universal weeping, and wailing, and mourning with fear and trembling.
    Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

    5. There is no third advent, since when Christ comes FOR His saints at the Resurrection/Rapture it is IN THE AIR and momentarily. He does not return to earth until later, when He comes WITH His saints and angels.
    And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)
     
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  5. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    The account of Matthew 3"17 is identified not as "water", but as spirit in verse 16, as John testified, saying, "He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him."

    Matthew 17:5 was simply a vision given to Peter, James, and John.
    Being born of water is simply natural birth, which, as Jesus stated, is not enough for entry into the kingdom of God.
    Before Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, none were born of the Spirit, but rather the Spirit "came upon" the prophets and those moved by God, even Pharaoh. Even so, only One is begotten of the Father...and we who are His, in Him.
     
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  6. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    "Advent" is not my term, but rather those who claim there are three (advents).

    But you state that the term "does NOT appear in the Bible", and that is true. But then you add your own terms giving glory to the "flesh" as if "the glorified bodies of the saints will be in Heaven" in the flesh--which is also NOT in the bible. And this you did not mentioning that Jesus laid down His flesh, and although He took it up again, He did not commit His flesh to the Father, but His spirit only. Meaning, in His own words, He did NOT go to the Father in the flesh, but in the spirit.

    As for returning to the earth "later", that is also NOT in the Bible. All that happens after the Resurrection is in the glory of the Father...whom is spirit. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." As Jesus Himself proclaimed:

    Matthew 16:27
    "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."
     
  7. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    You need to spend some time studying 1 Corinthians 15.
     
  8. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Huh? It happened at his baptism! How much more obvious would the text need to be to show you it's about water?
    It says nothing about it being only a vision. It says Jesus was transfigured before them; and it says Eljiah and Moses also appeared. Visions often clue us in by using phrases such as "like unto" or "as it were." No such language is used there. Why not accept it as written without introducing a conjecture that it can't be read as writtten?
    This statement is impossible. Nicodemus had already experienced a simple "natural birth." So why would it be said to be a requirement to be born of water if he had already been born of it?

    Nicodemus said, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" If being born of water means the natural birth, the answer to that question would be yes. Think about it. If someone asked you how to enter the kingdom of God, would you tell him, "First you need to be born to a woman by natural childbirth? Huh? He's already done that.
    I see no Biblical references given for these views. I ask you why Ezekiel was called "Son of Man" -- and he could move like the wind too. Ah, could he have been born of the Spirit?
     
  9. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    GINOLJC,
    Three Advents or three coming? YES. there is a difference in each a parousia, and an Advent. in both one could and could not have an "APPEARING", a coming YES, but maybe not in apperance. hence our Lord's (3) coming or Advents, and his two parousia. (2) two apperances and (1) one manifestation Spiritually. lets be clear, Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." here from scripture we clearly see that our Lord will appear two times that's bible without dispute. the first time he came he MANIFESTED/APPEARED in flesh, supportive scripture, Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." this COMING was foretold by the prophet Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you." HIS FIRST ADVENT, HE MANIFESTED IN FLESH HE "APPEARED". the first "appearing" is done of Hebrews 9:28. so his first "coming" was in apperance, which he "saves" us from our sins. now his second advent in which he "COMFORT" us.

    John 14:16-18 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth;
    whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."
    ok, when did our Lord Jesus come.... come......come to us? lets see. Acts 2:1-4 "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with
    the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
    here is the second ADVENT, in MANIFESTATION of the Spiritual Gifts, NOT SEEN, but YES, he arrived. NOT in "apperance" of PERSON, but in Manifestation of the Spiritual Gifts od COMFORT. supportive scripture, John 14:19-23 "Yet a little while, and the world
    seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." so when did come? and two, when did he MANIFESTED himself as Judas asked? ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST, again see acts chapter 2. he the Lord Jesus was plain as day, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."
    this is the second "advent" of our Lord in Spirit as the COMFORTER.

    Now his third advent which is yet to happen, or is to come, which no man knows the day nor the hour of this coming. Mark 13:32 "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."
    Mark 13:33 "Take ye heed, watch and pray:
    for ye know not when the time is." now this, Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."
    this advent, #3. is the manifestation in the glorified body, when "EVERY EYE" will see him, hence the filling of Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him
    shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." this is his third or last "ADVENT".

    THE THREE ADVENTS
    he comes in natural flesh with blood, "apperance"/Advent #1 in manifested of salvation, (Matthews 1:23/Hebrews 9:28).

    he comes in Spirit "manifest"/advent #2 in the Spiritual Gifts, the COMFORTOR, (John 14:18/Acts 2)

    he comes in Glorified flesh WITHOUT blood, "apperance"/advent #3, the first resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:16/Hebrews 9:28)

    PICJAG.
     
  10. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    The water is the gospel. It’s upon hearing the gospel “and believe”
     
  11. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    And you need to ask for understanding of what is written there. The flesh is not glorified, but is replaced:

    "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6
     
  12. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    You must only be reading half of the passage.

    Water was simply a visual of what was unseen of the Spirit, an object of example. In that particular example, it was even made visible to John, for a witness of the actual truth.
     
  13. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Jesus specifically said it was a "vision":

    9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.
     
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  14. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    What? I am certainly not arguing that the physical water in baptism has some spiritual power; but it seems to me, when we're talking about water, we should associate it with water and not Spirit.

    1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

    Thanks for the correction.. Still that could mean either since the word can mean anything seen. It could even mean seeing something physical.

    In this case, I'd argue the three who witnessed the event could see the spiritual bodies of Elijah and Moses, so they were permitted. I doubt the other nine disciples could have seen them.

    Visions of spiritual things are of two types. The first type is when the spiritual things are actively present in time and space such as when the horses and chariots surrounded Elisha. The young man with him did not see them however until his eyes were open. The second type is when the person is seeing prophetically a scene being projected into his mind. This is the type the prophet often knows is not there actively in time and space, so he uses qualifying phrases such as "like unto" or "as it were."
     
  15. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Is the gospel not the witness of Christ, could this be what flows from His throne?
     
  16. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    The idea is too abstract for my mind.
     
  17. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    No man receives birth, without first hearing the gospel. Christ is seated on the throne of our hearts,this is where the gospel flows from.
     
  18. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    I can't believe I am having to explain...

    It should be obvious that it was obvious to Jesus that Nicodemus had already been born of water because he was standing right in front of Him. So, with that being obvious, Jesus told him he must also be born again of the spirit. "Again", meaning that he had already been born of water.
     
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  19. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Acts 10:44-45 KJV
    [44] While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    Acts 10:44-45 KJV
    [44] While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Upon hearing the gospel the baptism of the Holy Ghost was poured out on them.
    Tecarta Bible

    Tecarta Bible
     
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  20. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Then you need to read more:

    John 7:39
    "But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

    As for Ezekiel, where do you read that "he could move like the wind?" No, he was not "born again of the spirit":

    Ezekiel 2:2
    "Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me."
     
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