Thy Kingdom come.

[bbyrd009]

Do you think there are any 'Biblical Jews' today? I guess that even if there are they are not saved unless they are Messianic Jews?

well, i dont really know, Pearl; but i think i can safely say that those Israelites in the pitcher are hardly devout, have not left the world, seek a king to fight their battles--however you want to put it--and have thus rejected Yah anyway. But there are lots of Jews in Jerusalem doing the right thing imo, esp the younger ones; by "doing the right thing" i mean protesting the apartheid, even getting arrested for it, etc

at "saved" you and i prolly differ on the definition there, so ill leave that
saved, from what? You are aware that "saved" is the english translation for that word eh

 

[Pearl]

well, i dont really know, Pearl; but i think i can safely say that those Israelites in the pitcher are hardly devout, have not left the world, seek a king to fight their battles--however you want to put it--and have thus rejected Yah anyway. But there are lots of Jews in Jerusalem doing the right thing imo, esp the younger ones; by "doing the right thing" i mean protesting the apartheid, even getting arrested for it, etc

at "saved" you and i prolly differ on the definition there, so ill leave that
saved, from what? You are aware that "saved" is the english translation for that word eh

Saved, redeemed, ransomed. Freed from the consequences of sin.

 

[Robert Gwin]

i would say that that is really irrelevant, next to the truth that it is an account put in the Bible for our edification? But i guess Yah “causes” everything in the end. Anyway i guess it is likely best that the story of Esau and Jacob is closed to you right now, maybe even fitting…meaning, everything in its time

and you might see that having included the quote banner, here, others can now trackback to your post for context, etc

Yes sir, in the end.

 

[Robert Gwin]

are you sure? i would say that the concept of “hel” infers punishment, whereas Sheol and Hades do not

do they? you say “as mentioned” but i dont recall reading a v for that

id be more interested in discussing what “discussion” means tbh, rg; do you think we are having a discussion right now?
But Gehenna is just a garbage dump on earth, used an analogy, isnt it?

are you sure? i would say that the concept of “hel” infers punishment, whereas Sheol and Hades do not

Sheol and hades are translated hell sir, and defined as the abode of the dead. Gehenna which many versions also translate as hell is different as you gathered. You might consider Gehenna to be punishment, but I do not consider it as such. Many faiths portray God to torture people eternally in a lake of fire, but fail to actually state the truth as the Bible does in both instances where it speaks of the lake of fire.
Just as you stated Gehenna was a garbage dump just outside Jerusalems walls in Jesus' day. The people Jesus was witnessing to could relate to his usage of it figuratively in his message. Criminals during that time were cast in there, being unfit by custom to be buried in what we today would call a Christian burial. Being a garbage dump, like we used to, and likely still do in areas, accelerant at times to burn the refuse faster. Worms and maggots are always present as well. Gehenna represents the second death sir, it is a judgment. All who go there have been judged unworthy for life and will not receive a resurrection.

do they? you say “as mentioned” but i dont recall reading a v for that

Rev 20:13, when all are resurrected out of hell, then hell no longer being necessary is cast into the lake of fire as well, gone forever. v14

 

[Robert Gwin]

I was not referring to the gentiles, but making them an exception to what has already been fulfilled, as being all that remains unfulfilled of the prophecies that Jesus said would all occur during that ("this") "generation."

So, do you believe that there are any of the end time prophecies that Jesus spoke of that remain unfulfilled?

As for the times of the gentiles...we are gentiles--what times would you call these if not a part of the times of the gentiles yet remaining?

You asked this Scott: As I said, I don't know all that your denomination believes, so I will put it this way: Anything and everything other than the fullness of the times of the gentiles, that you believe has not been fulfilled yet. And that is what I was addressing. We do not refer to it as the times of the gentiles as the KJV renders it, we call it the appointed time of the nations, and as I stated we believe that time period ended in 1914 and Jesus was enthroned and ushered us into the last days of this system.

Yes sir, the next unfulfilled prophecy that should come on the scene we believe will be the destruction of babylon the great, followed very closely by the great tribulation.

 

[bbyrd009]

Saved, redeemed, ransomed. Freed from the consequences of sin.

hmm you dont think sin still leads to spiritual death?

 

[bbyrd009]

Sheol and hades are translated hell sir, and defined as the abode of the dead

so go with that then if you like, rg, but you are trusting wolves in sheep’s clothing for your translations imo

You might consider Gehenna to be punishment, but I do not consider it as such

so being ghosted by someone while here on earth is not a kind of punishment, but where you will go when you die is, even though neither term ever included any punishment in their concept? Are you listening to yourself man

Gehenna represents the second death sir, it is a judgment. All who go there have been judged unworthy for life and will not receive a resurrection.

i can agree with your words, but i cant help but be assured that you are inferring some kind of…loss of immortality @ “will not receive a resurrection”

Rev 20:13, when all are resurrected out of hell, then hell no longer being necessary is cast into the lake of fire as well, gone forever

ah ok, ty. How did i already know that the ref would be hopelessly mangled along the way…

 

[Pearl]

hmm you dont think sin still leads to spiritual death?

It does if you aren't 'washed in the Blood of the Lamb' if you haven't accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour. If you are redeemed it means you are no longer a sinner; in God's you are now what the bible calls a saint.

 

[Robert Gwin]

if i addressed most of yours, im afraid that i would end up lecturing too lol. So i guess maybe not, as i am mostly trying to address the difference in definitions that we seem to be having

ok, well, there is no explicit question there,
and as to the implied one, i have already addressed it twice and we got nowhere, right? You use “faith” as a noun, to describe what the Bible would call a cult or a tree, and i have a different definition of “faith.” Im using “cult” in the orig sense, as near as i understand it anyway, same root as “culture,” meaning we all start in a “cult”

but since i am the odd man out there, obviously, and apparently most believers use faith as a noun i guess, my reply to your q would be that no, i know of no other cult of sol “faith” that is any worse than yours, except yours encourages shunning, thus inviting judgement of others for imagined “sins” or im pretty sure for even refusing to go along with certain things, and i just seriously doubt that little children would do this, rg. JW is as good a tree to be from as any i guess, but how do you get out from under the tree when its time? Lots of drama and sorrow, right?

So dont misunderstand me ok, you have chosen i guess, and i am not here to influence your choice—you might even be the one to improve the cult from within, for all i know—but i must reserve my prayers for anyone unfortunate enough to find themselves in the position of impending salvation at the hands of a JW, as they are apparently in for a painful lesson, at least as near as i can tell.

Yah is my Sovereign, not some board of directors. If i transgress, and cannot or do not confess, then i expect i would be tossed into Gehenna by the one i transgressed against—forgiveness being so far from us, i mean—but understand that this is vastly simplified, and many scenarios might evolve there, they might overlook the matter and that might convict me, etc

I think the confusion resulted from me using faith interchangably with denomination, perhaps that would clear it up Byrd. There are literally thousands of denominations claiming to be the one faith, the one people of God, true Christians. We believe that the Bible identifies the denomination of God's people beyond any doubt, in fact it has to. If God is going to hold people accountable, He has to instruct them in what He desires. Noah was preserved because he obeyed God's commandments to the T sir Gen 6:22

I commend you for worshipping Jehovah, that is the God Jesus said we as his followers should worship and serve exclusively Mat 4:10

 

[Robert Gwin]

an interesting perspective, as the US—the biggest dog in the pound iow—is ostensibly run by Gentiles? I say “ostensibly” bc
View attachment 24137
which nevermind the caption, prolly the other way around anyway, dunno

Actually Byrdie, the Bible explains the contrast between Mat 24:6 and 7 as happening because of this sir: (Revelation 6:4) . . .Another came out, a fiery-colored horse, and it was granted to the one seated on it to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another, and he was given a great sword.

 

[ScottA]

You asked this Scott: As I said, I don't know all that your denomination believes, so I will put it this way: Anything and everything other than the fullness of the times of the gentiles, that you believe has not been fulfilled yet. And that is what I was addressing. We do not refer to it as the times of the gentiles as the KJV renders it, we call it the appointed time of the nations, and as I stated we believe that time period ended in 1914 and Jesus was enthroned and ushered us into the last days of this system.

Yes sir, the next unfulfilled prophecy that should come on the scene we believe will be the destruction of babylon the great, followed very closely by the great tribulation.

The chink in that armor is the error of believing there is a greater tribulation than [all] tribulation taken on by Christ at the cross. If you can see that, then perhaps we can go further into it.

 

[bbyrd009]

I think the confusion resulted from me using faith interchangably with denomination

well i guess it never hurts to question/review all of our word uses; funny how money comes in denominations too huh

, perhaps that would clear it up Byrd

if only

 

[bbyrd009]

It does if you aren't 'washed in the Blood of the Lamb' if you haven't accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour. If you are redeemed it means you are no longer a sinner; in God's you are now what the bible calls a saint.

ha and thats why Christianity is such a Shining Example for the rest of the world, huh Pearl

 

[Pearl]

ha and thats why Christianity is such a Shining Example for the rest of the world, huh Pearl

Well and so it should be. But who are you calling 'the rest of the world'?

 

[Robert Gwin]

hmm you dont think sin still leads to spiritual death?

Practice of serious sin certainly can sir

 

[Robert Gwin]

so go with that then if you like, rg, but you are trusting wolves in sheep’s clothing for your translations imo
so being ghosted by someone while here on earth is not a kind of punishment, but where you will go when you die is, even though neither term ever included any punishment in their concept? Are you listening to yourself man

i can agree with your words, but i cant help but be assured that you are inferring some kind of…loss of immortality @ “will not receive a resurrection”
ah ok, ty. How did i already know that the ref would be hopelessly mangled along the way…

Robert Gwin said: ↑
Sheol and hades are translated hell sir, and defined as the abode of the dead
so go with that then if you like, rg, but you are trusting wolves in sheep’s clothing for your translations imo

You said it yourself sir did you change your mind:
bbyrd009 said: ↑
well again rg you speak in courtroom facts, that are easily challenged imo. I mean i agree that they are not the same, Gehenna is right here on Erets, and Hades is a Greek god whose mythology contains no punishment, merely “the grave” i guess, like Sheol?
Robert Gwin said: ↑
You might consider Gehenna to be punishment, but I do not consider it as such
so being ghosted by someone while here on earth is not a kind of punishment, but where you will go when you die is, even though neither term ever included any punishment in their concept? Are you listening to yourself man
Of course, and that is what Gehenna is
Robert Gwin said: ↑
Gehenna represents the second death sir, it is a judgment. All who go there have been judged unworthy for life and will not receive a resurrection.
i can agree with your words, but i cant help but be assured that you are inferring some kind of…loss of immortality @ “will not receive a resurrection”
Most Christians will never be immortal sir. If you sin after receiving everlasting life, you will be put to death.
Robert Gwin said: ↑
Rev 20:13, when all are resurrected out of hell, then hell no longer being necessary is cast into the lake of fire as well, gone forever
ah ok, ty. How did i already know that the ref would be hopelessly mangled along the way…

You are very welcome Byrd, I know when I discovered it I was excited as well. It is certainly among the best of news of the Bibles message.

 

[Robert Gwin]

The chink in that armor is the error of believing there is a greater tribulation than [all] tribulation taken on by Christ at the cross. If you can see that, then perhaps we can go further into it.

Christ's death had nothing to do with tribulation Scott. The application of tribulation that we have been discussing is the greatest tribulation yet to come upon mankind sir. In fact this will be so bad that unless Jehovah sends His forces, we will become extinct Mat 24:22

 

[Robert Gwin]

well i guess it never hurts to question/review all of our word uses; funny how money comes in denominations too huh
if only

The Christian congregation has also been released from tithing Byrd. We each give what we have resolved in our heart. 2 Cor 9:6,7

 

[ScottA]

Christ's death had nothing to do with tribulation Scott. The application of tribulation that we have been discussing is the greatest tribulation yet to come upon mankind sir. In fact this will be so bad that unless Jehovah sends His forces, we will become extinct Mat 24:22

Oh contraire...Jesus took upon Himself every evil, and there is nothing more. What makes the "great tribulation" of prophecy "great", is that it is all (tribulation) and cannot be made exception to. The sum is greater than any of the parts. Yet many have been and are in the weeds looking for what cannot be found...except in Christ.

 

[bbyrd009]

Well and so it should be

if only, huh?

But who are you calling 'the rest of the world'?

well at the time i meant just that, “the unbelievers in the world,” but having it quoted back to me i am realizing that “the rest” is prolly kind of apropos? I guess Christianity, Inc is as much of the world as any institution…