Timing of the abomination of desolation

[Spiritual Israelite]

Stop being rude. I know what I am talking about. I never claimed it was part of a foundation. It's a wall. It's still there, stone upon stone. It was there when Christ said all the buildings wouldn't be standing stone upon stone.

The buildings don't include a wall that wasn't part of the buildings. You're missing the obvious here and the only reason is because of extreme doctrinal bias.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You do realize Jesus was teaching in the Temple between 6 and 10 hours during the day. We do not even know what "these things" are.

LOL! Who are "we"? You and who else? It's obvious what "these things" are. Just read it.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

This is beyond obvious. If you can't discern what "these things" refer to here then you probably can't discern anything. First, the disciples showed Jesus "the buildings of the temple". Mark 13:1 and Luke 21:5 give the added details that they had been marveling at the temple buildings as far as how impressive looking they were and such. Immediately after that Jesus said "See ye not all these things"? What were the things that they had just been talking about? The temple buildings. So, "these things" were the temple buildings. Very simple. And Jesus said they would be completely destroyed. And they were.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus did not tell them in 40 years these things will happen in the answer given. If He did no one put that in the OD.

I didn't say that He did. It just turned out that way as far as the destruction of the temple buildings was concerned, but He wasn't only asked about that. He was also asked about His coming and the end of the age which has not yet occurred.

If you point out that the temple destruction was the totality of "these things", you are not being honest.

Which reference to "these things" are you referring to? The one in Matthew 24:2-3 or the one in Matthew 24:34? I ask that because "these things" aren't the same in each verse. In verses 2-3, "these things" referred to the temple buildings. In verse 34 it referred to the things that Jesus had been talking about just prior to that verse, which included His coming at the end of the age and the gathering of the elect.

 

[ewq1938]

The buildings don't include a wall that wasn't part of the buildings.

All stone walls are buildings.

 

[covenantee]

All stone walls are buildings.

One can enter a building.

Describe how one enters a stone wall.

 

[n2thelight]

No, Satan is an angel. Angels can appear as men. Satan can assume the identity of this "man of sin".

satan is the man of sin ,when he gets kicked out of Heaven he will be here on this earth ,with all his angels, he will appear as he is, one of the most beautiful angels God ever created

he pretends to be Christ ,that's the tribulation . The earth(humans) have never seen anything like it since Gen 6

 

[n2thelight]

One can enter a building.

Describe how one enters a stone wall.

Do you understand what happens when Christ feet hits the ground ,it's no comparison to AD 70 .Everything will be obliterated .

AD 70 was a type

 

[n2thelight]

I don't personally believe the book of Revelation was synonymous with the Olivet Discourse. But there are some interesting parallels. Some of the signs are the same, relating to the "birth pangs" of the Olivet Discourse. And reference to Jerusalem is the same, relating to Jesus' prophecy of its fall in the Olivet Discourse.

Mark 13 gives you all the seals of Revelation ,it can't help but be synonymous with it

One of the most talked about subjects today is the end times and all the events that surround those times. There is no reason that we be anxious of these times, for Jesus told us to wait patiently on Him. In Mark 13 Jesus is going to give His disciples, and to us the seven seals, and these seals are also recorded in the Book of Revelation. They are the seals that mark the end of this earth age of the flesh. The very word "Revelation" means "to reveal", to make known.

Christ would not His elect in the dark concerning the simplicity of His teaching, so Jesus is asked by three of His apostles here, as they are coming out of the Temple, when is the end of the world going to be. We know from Matthew 24:3, this is the actual wording of the question put to Jesus.

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of "Thy coming, and the end of the world."

It is important that we understand the word "world" as used in the Greek manuscripts, is "aion", and "age, or an age of time". In the Hebrew, " `olam", which denotes a limited, or even an extended period of time, such as the context of each occurrence may demand. So as such, this is talking about the end of our present world age which is characterized by a special form of Divine administration or dispensation.

Jesus is giving us in this chapter the seven events that must come to pass to bring to an end to this age, and the return of Christ. There are many church traditions that have complicate the simplicity the Jesus is teaching here. This is why we should have our ear tuned to the Lord Jesus Christ, and not to man's traditions. So the subject to this entire chapter is, "When is the end of this world age, and what are the events that mark that coming."

Remember that the closing thought to the last chapter was the little widow that had enough faith to give all over her livelihood to God and put here trust in God for provision. So don't forget that the famine in the end times is not for the bread that you eat, but for the knowledge and truth of God's Word.

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"

There will be a famine coming very shortly for the knowledge, and for the hearing of the Word of God.

mark13

 

[Daniel777]

LOL! Who are "we"? You and who else? It's obvious what "these things" are. Just read it.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

This is beyond obvious. If you can't discern what "these things" refer to here then you probably can't discern anything. First, the disciples showed Jesus "the buildings of the temple". Mark 13:1 and Luke 21:5 give the added details that they had been marveling at the temple buildings as far as how impressive looking they were and such. Immediately after that Jesus said "See ye not all these things"? What were the things that they had just been talking about? The temple buildings. So, "these things" were the temple buildings. Very simple. And Jesus said they would be completely destroyed. And they were.

Yep...the temple was totally destroyed. In his book, "Temple," Bob Cornuke makes a very convincing case that the ruins of the real temple are quite a distance away from the Wailing Wall. Excavations continue to this day. He also makes a strong case for the Wailing/Western Wall being the remains of the Roman Antonia Fortress, home of the 10th Roman Legion. Very interesting reading: https://www.amazon.com/Temple-Revised-Expanded-Bob-Cornuke/dp/1578216885

 

[covenantee]

Do you understand what happens when Christ feet hits the ground ,it's no comparison to AD 70 .Everything will be obliterated .

AD 70 was a type

Futurism's version of AD70 was obliterated in AD70.

 

[n2thelight]

Futurism's version of AD70 was obliterated in AD70.

So what happens when Christ feet touch the ground ?

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

This will happen on "the day of the Lord". God will shake the earth and send fire and brimstone upon it. The earthquakes will flatten the cities to where not one stone will stand upon another. Those two great mountains will shake, and the mount of Olives will split. All prophecies concerning Christ return include Mount Zion, and the Mount of Olives will be fulfilled. This is where Christ's feet will touch the earth, when He returns.

When Jesus and His disciples were departing out of Jerusalem before he would be delivered up to be crucified, they asked Him what it would be like at His second coming.

Matthew 24:2 "And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things [Temple buildings]? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Sure the city of Jerusalem has been destroyed from time to time, but there are still many stones stacked upon each other from the original construction. A simple trip to Jerusalem reveals that, for the wailing wall is one of the most popular markings of that city. Before that time another temple shall be built, and the Antichrist shall rule from that spot.

Again very different from AD 70

I Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

"Ensamples" in the manuscripts is the Greek word "tupos", number 5179 in the Strong's Greek dictionary. "a sample, or type; i.e. a model for imitation, a fashion, for manner, or form." So Paul is telling us that those things that we read about in the Old Testament, of the events of the prophets of old are examples of what we should be looking for in our day. This is written to alert all people to be aware of how it shall be before Christ returns.

What was written in the Exodus, or in Amos is written as examples for our admonition or warning. All of the Scriptures is given as a warning to those who are living in the times of the ends of this world age of the flesh. We will see the end of the flesh age come to a close, and there are many things that will come to pass right before our eyes that were written about in detail way back in the Old Testament time, and Paul is telling you and I to wake up to those warnings.

 

[ewq1938]

Mark 13 gives you all the seals of Revelation ,it can't help but be synonymous with it

Show us the 7th seal in Mark 13.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Mark 13 gives you all the seals of Revelation ,it can't help but be synonymous with it

Actually, similarity and repeated use does not always suggest a single identity. Consider twins for example.

It is very possible, to me, that the context of the Olivet Discourse and the context of the book of Revelation are very different, suggesting use of the same signs but applied to different entities.

In the Olivet Discourse, which was given under the Law, the main focus was on Israel and on their future. But in the Revelation, after the fall of Israel, and after the rise of the international Church, the main focus was on the international Church, and not on Israel.

The "birth pang" signs of the Olivet Discourse were indications that Roman judgment was coming to Israel. The same "birth pang" judgments at the end of the age may indicate that judgment is coming to backslidden Christian Europe, or Western Civilization.

Christ would not [keep] His elect in the dark concerning the simplicity of His teaching, so Jesus is asked by three of His apostles here, as they are coming out of the Temple, when is the end of the world going to be. We know from Matthew 24:3, this is the actual wording of the question put to Jesus.

That can be very misleading. The way you write this seems to suggest that the *only* question being asked involves the "end of the world." But as you can see, there is also the question, "When will this happen?," in reference to the coming desolation of the temple.

Matt 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

It is important that we understand the word "world" as used in the Greek manuscripts, is "aion", and "age, or an age of time". In the Hebrew, " `olam", which denotes a limited, or even an extended period of time, such as the context of each occurrence may demand. So as such, this is talking about the end of our present world age which is characterized by a special form of Divine administration or dispensation.

Yes, end of the age is what seems to be the indication, but I don't think that "end of the world" properly conveys, in our language, the idea. When we think of the world coming to an end, it almost sounds like the earth itself is going to cease to exist.

But in Ecclesiastes and in the Psalms we have verses indicating that God created the earth to last forever. It is only it's dying form that is to be replaced with a new eternal form. The "old earth" passes in favor of a "new earth." As such, the present earth is going to be made immortal.

Even more, the sense of an "age that must end" seems to relate back to an age of punishment for the Jewish People. It seems to be a "period of exile," which must certainly come to an end if the promises made by the Prophets are going to come to pass for Israel.

So the coming to an end of this present age suggests an end to Jewish punishment and to their long exile. Those who thought the Church consists of many nations, and excludes Israel, will find they were very wrong, in my opinion.

Jesus is giving us in this chapter the seven events that must come to pass to bring to an end to this age, and the return of Christ. There are many church traditions that have complicate the simplicity the Jesus is teaching here. This is why we should have our ear tuned to the Lord Jesus Christ, and not to man's traditions. So the subject to this entire chapter is, "When is the end of this world age, and what are the events that mark that coming."

Remember that the closing thought to the last chapter was the little widow that had enough faith to give all over her livelihood to God and put here trust in God for provision. So don't forget that the famine in the end times is not for the bread that you eat, but for the knowledge and truth of God's Word.

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"

There will be a famine coming very shortly for the knowledge, and for the hearing of the Word of God.

mark13

I'm not sure that the 7 seals were hour glass signs indicating that we're getting nearer to the end? Rather, as they were "birth pangs" for Israel in warning them of impending disaster, so the 7 seals are warning signs of impending disaster for the world. They are a warning to Christianity to separate from the falling civilization that they are a part of, so that they do not suffer its judgment.

Rev 18.4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“‘Come out of her, my people,’
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5 for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.

 

[Keraz]

Actually, similarity and repeated use does not always suggest a single identity. Consider twins for example.

It is very possible, to me, that the context of the Olivet Discourse and the context of the book of Revelation are very different, suggesting use of the same signs but applied to different entities.

In the Olivet Discourse, which was given under the Law, the main focus was on Israel and on their future. But in the Revelation, after the fall of Israel, and after the rise of the international Church, the main focus was on the international Church, and not on Israel.

The "birth pang" signs of the Olivet Discourse were indications that Roman judgment was coming to Israel. The same "birth pang" judgments at the end of the age may indicate that judgment is coming to backslidden Christian Europe, or Western Civilization.

This is exactly how it is and will be.
WE will face the test by fire and we must stand firm in our faith thru it all. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:12-15

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is exactly how it is and will be.
WE will face the test by fire and we must stand firm in our faith thru it all. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:12-15

Wow, brother--Do we agree on something?
I know we do.

 

[n2thelight]

Show us the 7th seal in Mark 13.

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

• 6th seal - Question, who shall be able to stand against Satan?
• There are two tribulations

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

• 7th trump - After Satan tribulation, then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds
• What happened 3 1/2 days before the Lord return? Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
  4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
  5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
  6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
  7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
  8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
  9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
  10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
  11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
  12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
  13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
  14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
  15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
  16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
  17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
  18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
  19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
• Revelation 11 and Revelation 20

 

[n2thelight]

In the Olivet Discourse, which was given under the Law, the main focus was on Israel and on their future. But in the Revelation, after the fall of Israel, and after the rise of the international Church, the main focus was on the international Church, and not on Israel.

The Church is Israel

 

[ewq1938]

The Church is Israel

There are two Israel's.

1. Those of the 12 tribes that reject Jesus. I would call this israel or "former Israel". These are the removed branches of the Olive tree.
2. Anyone, Jew or Gentile that is a Christian. This is true Israel, natural or grafted branches on the Olive tree.

 

[ewq1938]

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

• 6th seal - Question, who shall be able to stand against Satan?

I said 7th seal not 6th seal.

 

[covenantee]

So what happens when Christ feet touch the ground ?

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

This will happen on "the day of the Lord". God will shake the earth and send fire and brimstone upon it. The earthquakes will flatten the cities to where not one stone will stand upon another. Those two great mountains will shake, and the mount of Olives will split. All prophecies concerning Christ return include Mount Zion, and the Mount of Olives will be fulfilled. This is where Christ's feet will touch the earth, when He returns.

When Jesus and His disciples were departing out of Jerusalem before he would be delivered up to be crucified, they asked Him what it would be like at His second coming.

Matthew 24:2 "And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things [Temple buildings]? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Sure the city of Jerusalem has been destroyed from time to time, but there are still many stones stacked upon each other from the original construction. A simple trip to Jerusalem reveals that, for the wailing wall is one of the most popular markings of that city. Before that time another temple shall be built, and the Antichrist shall rule from that spot.

Again very different from AD 70

I Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

"Ensamples" in the manuscripts is the Greek word "tupos", number 5179 in the Strong's Greek dictionary. "a sample, or type; i.e. a model for imitation, a fashion, for manner, or form." So Paul is telling us that those things that we read about in the Old Testament, of the events of the prophets of old are examples of what we should be looking for in our day. This is written to alert all people to be aware of how it shall be before Christ returns.

What was written in the Exodus, or in Amos is written as examples for our admonition or warning. All of the Scriptures is given as a warning to those who are living in the times of the ends of this world age of the flesh. We will see the end of the flesh age come to a close, and there are many things that will come to pass right before our eyes that were written about in detail way back in the Old Testament time, and Paul is telling you and I to wake up to those warnings.

Did any of Jesus' Olivet predictions come true during the generation leading up to 70AD?