Tithing Or 2 Corinthians chs 8 & 9 - which is right?

[Candidus]

I don't believe that the "tithe" was compulsory, given the following examples:

Mark 12:41 And he sat down opposite the treasury, and watched the multitude putting money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 And a poor widow came, and put in two copper coins, which make a penny.​

... and ...

Matt. 17:24 When they came to Caper′na-um, the collectors of the half-shekel tax went up to Peter and said, “Does not your teacher pay the tax?” 25 He said, “Yes.” And when he came home, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, “What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tribute? From their sons or from others?” 26 And when he said, “From others,” Jesus said to him, “Then the sons are free. 27 However, not to give offense to them, go to the sea and cast a hook, and take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth you will find a shekel; take that and give it to them for me and for yourself.”​

Certainly GOD called for certain conventions, but many times they were IGNORED by the Jews -- to their detriment. And so we see here that the "multitude" apparently could have ignored the "treasury"; and Jesus could have also IGNORED the Temple "tax", but he instead recognized and obliged.


Apparently certain "religions" will show up on your door step to collect their "tithe", but I don't believe it was a Jewish practice to chase someone down.
Bobby Jo

The Old Testament had their required "Tithe" tax annually, and an additional "Tithe" every three years. This amounted to an average 23.3% tax. But giving did not stop there... beyond the required "Tithe," they also had free-will offerings... That's why they say "Tithes and Offerings." In addition to the Tithe, the Jewish system also had other taxes, one of which was the Temple Tax, a tax which only applied to males 20 and over. Exodus 30:13–16, 2 Kings 12:5–17 and Nehemiah 10:32–33, but may have been expended to every Jew in the times of Christ.

Matthew 17:24 and Mark 12:41 have nothing to do with Tithing.

 

[Candidus]

If you choose not to tithe and are stealing from GOD, -- then you could be CORRECT!

-- And MAKE SURE NOBODY ELSE PLAYS ANY MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS in Church or on the Christian Radio Stations, it is not mentioned in the New Testament. --


We all choose! :)
Bobby Jo

From an argument from silence, where does that leave us?
I'm still looking for a Biblical Church to join. It would be a sin to Tithe to a non-Biblical Church that offered Communion to women. For not one time in all of Scripture is there an example of a women being offered Communion. There is no command for a woman to partake of Communion. To offer a Female Communion is rebellion against God because it is never mentioned in the New Testament!

From an argument from silence, where does that leave us?

So since I cannot find a Biblical Church to "Tithe" to, I am not "robbing God"... am I!

Thanks for setting the standard!

 

[Candidus]

What I find is that many here are making excuses for their disobedience.

But really, if you do not want to obey Malachi 3:10 as a principle, don't expect the promise of the verse to come to you as a principle either.

You will find on your day of judgment that you were guilty of robbing God.

I will leave you with this scripture:

There is no Universal "principle" in Malachi 3:10 that applies to New Testament giving that goes beyond God's will that we support the work of the ministry, and that God blesses those who support His work.

If you make the percentage a "principle"... why are you so stingy that you stop there?

Every third year their was an additional Tithe. There was the annual Temple tax on top of that! There were Free-Will offerings on top of that! All "principles" that become "Law" for the Christian?

Add them all together and you must be a thief! God is "robbed" if you are not giving at least 30%! But, be sure to be precise in your principle! Calculate it all out, count all your mint and cumin seeds and separate the precise amount out; it's Biblical!

Will all that make you an "Honest Christian," or an "Honest Pharisee"? Requiring all those "Laws" that God never commanded for the Christian!

 

[Candidus]

The history of Tithing is interesting. I like to study Historical Theology. Where do doctrines come from? How did they develop? When in history did they arrive? Can I trace it as a Christian doctrine from the New Testament forward? Can I trace it from the present on back?

One thing is certain, the New Testament never tells a Christian to Tithe. The Early Church shows no evidence of tithing in the Church. Based on that, let's look at where we are today.

Most Churches teach tithing. If I look back though Church history, tithing occasionally comes up, yet it is met with a negative response as not being Christian. So, at what point in history does tithing become the "standard"?

Christian History Magazine gives us a timeline...

Christian History Timeline: Money in Christian History (II) | Christian History Magazine

1895 Wesley Chapel in Cincinnati has financial trouble. In desperation, it tries “suppers, festivals, lectures, stereopticon shows, subscriptions, and the whole round of man-made schemes and devices,” according to layman William G. Roberts. Finally, Roberts and others introduce the concept of “storehouse tithing,” which turns the church around. Tithing is revived as a popular practice in U.S. churches.

There is no "standard" or "principle" of tithing in the Church until it is introduced and accepted in a financially failing Church in 1895. There is not a clear history of tithing in the Church beyond a spotty mention of it in a negative way, going all the way back to the New Testament. The earliest mention I have found is that John Owen (1644) in his Exposition of the Epistle to the Hebrews, delves into it because it it mentioned in the Book of Hebrews. He dismantles any suggestion that that tithing is Christian by those previous to him that had applied these verses to establish a percentage for the Christian. Owen's does not give those sources he rebuts, but what those sources claim. I have not found any consistent trail to follow in Historical Theology that would suggest that the application of tithing to Christians has ever been common or an extension of Biblical tradition in the Church before 1895.

Note: John Wesley was against tithing. Wesley Chapel in Cincinnati was not propagating any doctrine that the name of the Chapel gives reference to. Wesley preached... "Do not stint yourself, like a Jew rather than a Christian, to this or that proportion."

 

[Bobby Jo]

...
Did I give a tenth? No. I gave enough to finance the building of a whole house because that is what I was told to do by the Spirit. If I had not done that maybe a family would still be on the streets under a tarpaulin. It wiped out my savings but who cares.

EXCELLENT! And so EACH OF US are called to participate in GOD's work, whether on a weekly, monthly, or yearly basis. And that participation can be actually DOING the Work, ASSISTING in the Work, or PAYING for the Work, where the "Effort" should be commensurate with a TITHE!

Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

... if you are not giving at least 30% ...

I AGREE. So I give BETTER than 10% from my pocket, and another 20% from my spirit ...

Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

... The Early Church shows no evidence of tithing in the Church. ...

Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.​

You're correct, most gave ALL THEY HAD for "the cause"!
Bobby Jo

 

[Candidus]

Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.​

You're correct, most gave ALL THEY HAD for "the cause"!
Bobby Jo

Yes and no!

Many within the Church still had possessions of value they could still sell. Ananias and Sapphira were already part of the Church. There was no obligation to sell everything and give it to the Church; it was clearly optional.

Not buying into the legalistic, Old Testament Jewish, non-Christian "law" of tithing, does not mean that one is anti-giving, anti-generosity, or unbiblical in their giving. God doesn't need our money! He owns everything already! But if we value the Church, and those that dedicate their lives for the function of the Church, the example that we should support it financially is consistent from the Old Testament through the New.

We use money for things we need, and if we have anything left over, we buy what we want. What we buy out of "want" tells us what we value. Where your treasures are, so shall be your heart. It would be a bad sign if a Christian did not highly value the Kingdom of God. We naturally invest into what we value the most.

 

[Candidus]

Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.​

You're correct, most gave ALL THEY HAD for "the cause"!
Bobby Jo

Keep in mind that God never commanded them to give "all." The Church of Jerusalem attempted a socialist style scheme that sounded good, but failed. Like any socialist scheme, you always run out of other people's money. We read later in Scripture that the Church of Jerusalem had to be bailed out by the non-socialist style Churches because it failed.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... The Church of Jerusalem attempted a socialist style scheme ...

Exactly, -- and so some give 10 (O.T. number), some 30 (your number), and some 100 (N.T. number). And we should NEVER give STRICTLY to the church, but also our extended family (those in need), to our community (those in need, and organizations we wish to support), and most importantly to the "Cabin Project"!

With Best Regards,
Bobby Jo

 

[Candidus]

Exactly, -- and so some give 10 (O.T. number), some 30 (your number), and some 100 (N.T. number). And we should NEVER give STRICTLY to the church, but also our extended family (those in need), to our community (those in need, and organizations we wish to support), and most importantly to the "Cabin Project"!

With Best Regards,
Bobby Jo

Bobby Jo,

Pardon my ignorance, I am not current on the meaning of the term "Cabin Project." Can you explain what it means for me?

Thanks!

 

[Bobby Jo]

Bobby Jo,

Pardon my ignorance, I am not current on the meaning of the term "Cabin Project." Can you explain what it means for me?

Thanks!

Hey Candidus,

Yeah, I'm working on getting the cabin ready for the apocalypse, -- food, fuel, necessities, and plenty of T.P. I've already built a 10 Cord wood shed; replaced the bottom bathroom commode and the pedestal sink with a vanity; replaced the small wood stove with a much larger model; and am working the the upstairs "loft" bathroom which had "pony" (-half-) walls which I'm extending to the ceiling. Scripture suggests that we have about 8 to 10 months until we'll need it:

Lke 22:35 And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no purse or bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “Nothing.” 36 He said to them, “But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.​

:)
Bobby Jo

 

[justbyfaith]

It does say to make a joyful noise unto the Lord.

In the New Testament?

From what I read you have committed the unpardonable exegetical sin of basing a doctrine on one verse of scripture which you have been brainwashed to believe by denominational leaders who are required to produce the goods by their overlords.

The only thing I hope that I am not guilty of is being duped by people that set themselves up as some sort of authority in taking scripture out of context and making them say what they do not say.

Have you considered that Matthew, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, takes Hosea 11:1 out of context in Matthew 2:15 and applies it as Jesus being the Son of God whereas in the original verse quoted from, Israel is counted as God's son.

And also, have you considered that in 2 Corinthians 9:6, you come up with "word of faith", "health and wealth" doctrine if you take it in its immediate context, while you can get a more orthodox opinion if you compare it to Luke 8:11 according the hermeneutical principle found in 1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv)?

Sometimes it is good and right to take scripture out of its immediate context.

 

[Candidus]

Hey Candidus,

Yeah, I'm working on getting the cabin ready for the apocalypse, -- food, fuel, necessities, and plenty of T.P. I've already built a 10 Cord wood shed; replaced the bottom bathroom commode and the pedestal sink with a vanity; replaced the small wood stove with a much larger model; and am working the the upstairs "loft" bathroom which had "pony" (-half-) walls which I'm extending to the ceiling. Scripture suggests that we have about 8 to 10 months until we'll need it:

Lke 22:35 And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no purse or bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “Nothing.” 36 He said to them, “But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.​

:)
Bobby Jo

Good for you! Many people make fun of those who prepare for the Zombie Apocalypse, but if you are prepared for that, you are prepared for about anything! It's better to "have" and be prepared than "have not" because you did not prepare.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Good for you! Many people make fun of those who prepare for the Zombie Apocalypse, but if you are prepared for that, you are prepared for about anything! It's better to "have" and be prepared than "have not" because you did not prepare.

Hey Candidus,

The term "zombie" is a Hollywood summation of a GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE. In the 1950's there were all kinds of Sci-Fi movies where GIANT IRRADIATED KILLER ANTS attacked mankind, as a euphemism for the consequence of Nuclear War. And today Hollywood sums the world's future as Zombies versus Humans, because the Populous (Zombies) will be raiding Stores to feed themselves (when we can't buy or sell), and the Government (Humans) will shoot them in the streets.

So we're probably in a better position being away from population centers with sufficient resources to survive on our own for some duration, -- maybe 6 months, but probably a year. And if a CLOAK is VALUABLE because it keeps us warm at night, provides shade in the heat of the day, and can even keep us from being soaked in the rain, -- and we're told to sell it and buy a Sword --, then how MUCH MORE IMPORTANT is the Sword?!?


... and remember, Two is One and One is None, but Three is Best ...
Bobby Jo

 

[Candidus]

And if a CLOAK is VALUABLE because it keeps us warm at night, provides shade in the heat of the day, and can even keep us from being soaked in the rain, -- and we're told to sell it and buy a Sword --, then how MUCH MORE IMPORTANT is the Sword?!?


... and remember, Two is One and One is None, but Three is Best ...

Interesting view on the value of the cloak. I will have to add that one to my view of planning for the future.

Thanks!

 

[justbyfaith]

How are you going to last through the Great Trib if you are only prepared to go for six months?

It's supposed to last seven years...

 

[marksman]

In the New Testament?
Sometimes it is good and right to take scripture out of its immediate context.

Is it? That is news to me. I think I will stick with my tutors and mentors that taught me otherwise.

 

[marksman]

EXCELLENT! And so EACH OF US are called to participate in GOD's work, whether on a weekly, monthly, or yearly basis. And that participation can be actually DOING the Work, ASSISTING in the Work, or PAYING for the Work, where the "Effort" should be commensurate with a TITHE!

Bobby Jo

Oh, dear. Such a shame that everything is filtered through dogmatism.

 

[justbyfaith]

Is it? That is news to me. I think I will stick with my tutors and mentors that taught me otherwise.

We can receive the teaching of the Holy Ghost when we compare spiritual thing with spiritual thing (1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv)).

You can ignore what I said to you or else you can consider it.

Because my doctrine is based on what the word of the Lord teaches.

The scripture doesn't contradict itself. And therefore the context of any given verse is never going to contradict the plain meaning of the verse. This is a first rule of hermeneutics.

And therefore, every singular scripture stands on its own as a bastion of spiritual truth.