Tongues ( 'sign' gifts ) did/did not cease?

[1stCenturyLady]

Not what face to face means

Where is the rest of your post?

 

[DJT_47]

If you understood 1 Corinthians perfectly and correctly then you would not be contradicting and even opposing the words written in it.

When we say that we "perfectly and correctly" understand Holy Scripture then that means we can only AGREE not contradict.

Would you not agree?

No, I would not agree because I don't agree with your nebulous premise.

 

[Aunty Jane]

NO! That is a contradiction to 1 Corinthians 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Tell me the truth. Are you even reading what I've written to you?

You're killing me, because I've shown you a number of times that your doctrine of man is false. You ask where is the interpreter? I showed you. THEY WERE THE INTERPRETER. THEY RECEIVED THE SUPERNATURAL INTERPRETATION IN EACH PERSON'S OWN LANGUAGE.

6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one HEARD their own language being spoken.
7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us HEARS them in our native language?

6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one INTERPRETS their own language being spoken.
7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us INTERPRETS them in our native language?

If it says “hears”, why put “interpret” instead as if they must mean the same thing?
The Greek word is “akouō” and it does not mean “interpret”….it means to “to hear”.

The people “heard” the message in their own language, in spite of the fact that the ones who spoke it had never learned that language. Since it was a work of the spirit, God was the one who allowed the speaking and the hearing to come together in order to accomplish his will. Those who heard and responded, would then take the message back to their home country and this is how Christianity was spread “to the most distant part of the earth”. (Acts 1:8) It’s not really more complicated than that.

As for 1 Cor 14…..read the whole chapter….
“13 Therefore, let the one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I am praying in a tongue, it is my gift of the spirit that is praying, but my mind is unproductive. 15 What is to be done, then? I will pray with the gift of the spirit, but I will also pray with my mind. I will sing praise with the gift of the spirit, but I will also sing praise with my mind. 16 Otherwise, if you offer praise with a gift of the spirit, how will the ordinary person in your midst say “Amen” to your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? 17 True, you are giving thanks in a fine way, but the other man is not being built up. 18 I thank God that I speak in more tongues than all of you do. 19 Nevertheless, in a congregation I would rather speak five words with my mind, that I might also instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.”

Speaking in tongues was not one of the most important gifts of the spirit, but useful in its place, nonetheless. But if it was all one could do, then how was the congregation to be built up? And why would Paul say that the gifts would cease? Isn’t it because they had fulfilled their purpose?

 

[DJT_47]

Where is the rest of your post?

See post #33

 

[Bob Estey]

But most of what Paul wrote was scripture. If you are filled with the Spirit and can hear His voice, you can discern what little is not scripture.

I would agree with that.

 

[DJT_47]

I would agree with that.

It's ALL scripture. Everything in the bible is scripture.

 

[Bob Estey]

It's ALL scripture. Everything in the bible is scripture.

So women aren't allowed to speak when they are in church, as Paul said?

 

[DJT_47]

So women aren't allowed to speak when they are in church, as Paul said?

That's what it says, meaning not usurping authority over the man; No women preachers, no women elders, no women leading prayer, and likewise.

 

[amadeus]

What I'm saying about this OP is that the meaning of Acts 2 cannot contradict 1 Corinthians 14:2. Do you agree? 1 Corinthians 14:2 has one meaning about tongues spoken by themselves.

I agree that we want to always be led by the Holy Spirit.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

If it says “hears”, why put “interpret” instead as if they must mean the same thing?
The Greek word is “akouō” and it does not mean “interpret”….it means to “to hear”.

The people “heard” the message in their own language, in spite of the fact that the ones who spoke it had never learned that language. Since it was a work of the spirit, God was the one who allowed the speaking and the hearing to come together in order to accomplish his will. Those who heard and responded, would then take the message back to their home country and this is how Christianity was spread “to the most distant part of the earth”. (Acts 1:8) It’s not really more complicated than that.

As for 1 Cor 14…..read the whole chapter….
“13 Therefore, let the one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I am praying in a tongue, it is my gift of the spirit that is praying, but my mind is unproductive. 15 What is to be done, then? I will pray with the gift of the spirit, but I will also pray with my mind. I will sing praise with the gift of the spirit, but I will also sing praise with my mind. 16 Otherwise, if you offer praise with a gift of the spirit, how will the ordinary person in your midst say “Amen” to your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? 17 True, you are giving thanks in a fine way, but the other man is not being built up. 18 I thank God that I speak in more tongues than all of you do. 19 Nevertheless, in a congregation I would rather speak five words with my mind, that I might also instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.”

Speaking in tongues was not one of the most important gifts of the spirit, but useful in its place, nonetheless. But if it was all one could do, then how was the congregation to be built up? And why would Paul say that the gifts would cease? Isn’t it because they had fulfilled their purpose?

1 Cor. 14:2 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. ... 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

The above is the rule you cannot contradict when reading a story. But people go their own way anyway. But it is clear that what Luke wrote does not contradict the rule Paul wrote.

6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language....

Therefore each Jew of different languages HEARD THEM (all of them like a choir) speak in tongues, but what they understood was his own language.

So all the disciples were speaking in tongues of angels that no man could understand. And an Englishman HEARD English. How? By the gift of interpretation of tongues

8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?

Read that carefully. Each person of different languages, heard their own language!!! That is not natural, their hearing was supernatural!


Tongues and interpretation of tongues have not ceased! We are in the same New Covenant they were in in the 1st Century. That covenant will not end until the 2nd coming when we see Christ face to face.

 

[MatthewG]

Matthew you can't just believe anything that tickles your ears, but contradicts the Word of God!

1stCenturyLady, people do. And when it comes to talking about subjective beliefs with you, it doesn't really do anything much for me. As people believe what they will, like Hell still being around, or Jesus Christ coming back. I believe Hell is done away with and Jesus did come back. I don't think tongues means anything that speaking either the tongue of the world, or the tongue of heaven by the spirit of Christ with-in you.

People be like you NEED TO SPEAK TONGUES OR YOU AINT RIGHT WITH GOD.

Bunch a bs, and to force people to believe something - - When people have to choose to believe or not; needs information to back it up.

But look people will hate (strong dislike) on others as 'Christians' to have such insane views.
Deem them Heretic, or even Deem them as 'someone who needs to be reformed to my beliefs'.

Even further - I am an elder and people must obey me and my ways, otherwise I will deem them unfit for the kingdom of heaven...

So many different mindsets in the world.

 

[MatthewG]

1stCenturyLady, people do. And when it comes to talking about subjective beliefs with you, it doesn't really do anything much for me. As people believe what they will, like Hell still being around, or Jesus Christ coming back. I believe Hell is done away with and Jesus did come back. I don't think tongues means anything that speaking either the tongue of the world, or the tongue of heaven by the spirit of Christ with-in you.

People be like you NEED TO SPEAK TONGUES OR YOU AINT RIGHT WITH GOD.

Bunch a bs, and to force people to believe something - - When people have to choose to believe or not; needs information to back it up.

But look people will hate (strong dislike) on others as 'Christians' to have such insane views.
Deem them Heretic, or even Deem them as 'someone who needs to be reformed to my beliefs'.

Even further - I am an elder and people must obey me and my ways, otherwise I will deem them unfit for the kingdom of heaven...

So many different mindsets in the world.

What is disappointing is the message from someone else is that God saved me, but you are doomed to eternal hell forever...

A very unfortunate mindset.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Here's an excerpt from something I've posted previously here and elsewhere that should shed light on this topic, that addresses spiritual gifts. And yes. there's an obvious lack of understanding and misinterpretation of what is meant by "that which is perfect" which this covers as well.

REPOST

Very difficult subject (spiritual gifts) which is why there's so much controversy, and equally difficult to unravel and explain. But let me explain it this way.

First, look at the way Paul started his letter to the Corinthians starting at 1 Cor1:10 where he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Corinthians.
Also keep in mind, this was written to THEM in their time, addressing THEIR near term issues, and not to us nor considering some event in the distant future.
And too, keep in mind that the early church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, and prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned about in the Hebrew letter as well.

You have to first ask yourself and answer the question as to what is "that which is perfect"?
The aforementioned question and answer to it is found in Ephesians 4:13 wherein it discusses 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, the perfect man being the perfection of the body of Christ: this being then the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the various gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need the piece meal parts of the body.

The "face to face" and "known as we are known" is relating to the distinction between the old testament readings, and coming to Christ via the New Testament and the comparison to the veil in reading Moses, and we now, they then, being able to look into a glass or mirror and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image.

To piece it all together, you must look at the gifts and the logic in, and need for them at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify it, as well as to grow the church such as by use of tongues, being a sign to unbelievers.

I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Galatians 3, and Ephesians 4. Look very closely at the similarity of words used and phraseology and piece those similar words and phrases together to get the true picture of their meaning as relates to the subject matter.

1 Corinthians 12:8-31
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

2 Corinthians 3:7-18
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Galatians 3:23-27
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 4:7-16
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

In other words, you're a bona fide Cessationist.

 

[DJT_47]

In other words, you're a bona fide Cessationist.

I'm a Christian that follows the words of scripture wherever they lead.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

1stCenturyLady, people do. And when it comes to talking about subjective beliefs with you, it doesn't really do anything much for me. As people believe what they will, like Hell still being around, or Jesus Christ coming back. I believe Hell is done away with and Jesus did come back. I don't think tongues means anything that speaking either the tongue of the world, or the tongue of heaven by the spirit of Christ with-in you.

People be like you NEED TO SPEAK TONGUES OR YOU AINT RIGHT WITH GOD.

Bunch a bs, and to force people to believe something - - When people have to choose to believe or not; needs information to back it up.

But look people will hate (strong dislike) on others as 'Christians' to have such insane views.
Deem them Heretic, or even Deem them as 'someone who needs to be reformed to my beliefs'.

Even further - I am an elder and people must obey me and my ways, otherwise I will deem them unfit for the kingdom of heaven...

So many different mindsets in the world.

Wow! You're not a Partial Preterist; you're a full blown Preterist aren't you?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'm a Christian that follows the words of scripture wherever they lead.

But know nothing about Covenants.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I agree that we want to always be led by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit will never contradict Scripture. That is one way to test the spirits.

 

[David in NJ]

The Holy Spirit will never contradict Scripture. That is one way to test the spirits.

NEVER = in all caps

 

[DJT_47]

But know nothing about Covenants.

Goodbye. Your shallow words mean nothing.

 

[MatthewG]

Wow! You're not a Partial Preterist; you're a full blown Preterist aren't you?

Yes. But i dont know “everything” a “preterist” who may study “pretristism” may believe.

My choice is to believe that Jesus wasnt lying; or making a double prophecy, and the choice to love others who may see differently and allow them the freedom to choose for themselves.

Sometimes my mind can still change as I am open to learn, but for the majority my thoughts align with Jesus christ having total and complete victory today; and he gives new spiritual life to anyone who comes to him; or in Faith seeks out God who created all things.