Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
In the epistle to the Hebrews the author was petitioning God to remove them from their doctrin of baptisms.
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Good morning WOH;
Believe what you are saying is correct, if you look at it as an illustration. (Going to write my thoughts out if you would like to read them)
If you are talking about Mark 7 in response to what is being said by the Lord Jesus Christ, the Scribes and Pharisees liked to be acknowledged with-in the marketplace, and enjoyed sitting in the most important seats in the house and being praised by others.
So Yeshua, is telling them -> Though you look holy on the outside -> On the inside that comes from our heart unto out of our mouth speaks volumes of the darkness with-in us. Because Yeshua talks about how out of the thoughts of the heart, evil things emerge.
The only way to have that cleaned from with-in seems by the bible to indicate having faith, belief, trust in God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(For an example a man in a jungle falls in sinking mud, - A man comes up to Him and says its gonna change you but can not help you though keep your head up even though you are sinking and walks away) - A worldly example of change.
Yeshua Christ comes along to the sinking man and literally dives with-in the mud, and pushes the man out back unto the land to safety. - Still a worldly example however -> this is happening by faith and trusting in God who gives to the Lord Jesus Christ the holy spirit/spirit of Christ which is delivered to us by faith given, and we are transformed in our minds and hearts. A heavenly example of change - being transformed by Christ Jesus and the word of God.
Are you talking about Hebrews Chapter 6:1-3? What do you think about these scriptures?
NayborBear
Active Member
Basically? It's this:
Romans 11:
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And teachings, beliefs, preaching's, from people who have been "cut off" and either don't/can't see. don't can't, or are willingly ignorant that they have been!
Iow? 1 man's "rabbit hole"(don't is another man's treasure map!
NayborBear
Active Member
Oops! His the wrong button lol
Iow? 1 man's "rabbit hole"(don't GO there) is another man's treasure map!
THIS happens when a believer relies on one's own understanding. Like the Soconians:
The Socinians held to a rationalistic approach to Scripture and to faith. This philosophical approach, especially in regard to biblical doctrine, declares that all religious matters must be fully reconcilable with human reason, and that theological matters pertaining to the nature of God cannot be beyond the finite understanding of the human mind.
And this more oft times than not is due to God's refining us towards Spiritual maturity!
This is why the believer must "TEST the spirit/s" in one's ascertaining that the "spirit" is of God, and not the spirit of antichrist, as well as from the "natural" and even "carnal" man, or mindset!
This also happens when man conflates (or tries to) the "Fruit of the Spirit of God" from the "Gift/s of the Holy Spirit from God!
This is what Paul was primarily trying to teach in the different and differing "ministrations" and "offices of gifts!"
But? Don't listen to me!
Listen rather to what and where the Spirit of God is trying to say to you!
Being normal? Is just the general consensus of any social, and/or religious organization!
Peer pressure from groups mentioned above causes this "traditions of man", "precepts of men", and "Legalism!"
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 6 is written to Jews that would rather sink in the mud of their traditions.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Legalism.
As found in Christianity, in the "time of the Gentiles".... is when a person has substituted anything for the BLood of Jesus, = their SELF Effort, to do for themselves, only what The Blood Of Jesus Can Do.
This can be a very refined and clever self deception. Where a person finds a handful of verses, often symbolic, that leads them to try to do, one thing..
See, the root of legalism, is only trying to do ONE THING. JUST ONE. And every Legalist is caught up in this one pursuit. And being caught up in it, causes them to fall from Grace and commit the "error of cain".
If you read JUDE. He explains the "error of Cain". And this is very simple, and yet, its the profound curse of spiritual apostasy that you find in the body of Christ today, just before Jesus comes back.
Pulpits and forums are full of these people. Mods, members, its RAMPANT.
You can literally find about 2% of the membership of a "christian" forum, that isn't Legalism.
So, here is what it is.. Legalism, is trying to keep yourself SAVED, by whatever means you have concluded must be done, by YOU< to do it for yourself.
This can be, "holding onto faith", or "commandment keeping" or 50 other things that make up the LIST of "i have to do that", and "i must not do that".......in the effort to try to STAY SAVED, or keep from losing your salvation.
A legalist will argue till they hairlip hell itself, regarding why they are doing what they are doing, that they MUST DO, to try not to lose their salvation.
So, what has happened?
Well the person has STOPPED TRUSTING IN CHRIST ALONE, to get them into heaven.
They have "fallen from Grace".
And once they did, they found a substitute that they are DOING, that they BELIEVE they have to DO, and if they dont, they lose their salvation.
So, this is a SELF issue, where SELF has become savior of SELF, and Christ has been ripped off the Nails, and SELF is now up there on the Cross, trying to KEEP SELF SAVED.
if you want to hear legalistic self saving explained day after day, then read anything posted by :
wrangler
justbyfaith
ferris bueller
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
1st, I made it to the top of the list! Yippie.
2nd, I would say legalism is not quite what Behold said. What he's calling legalism is merely the false doctrine Once Saved, Always Saved. MatthewG can go to the thread by that name to read page after page of analysis and debate. In short, legalism is putting the law above the Gospel.
3rd, what does the Gospel say? I refer to my Lord and Savior to guide me, as always.
21 Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven. Simply calling Me “Lord” will not be enough. Only those who do the will of My Father who is in heaven will join Me in heaven.
Matthew 7:21 (Voice)
“You are the salt of the earth. But what good is salt if it has lost its flavor? Can you make it salty again? It will be thrown out and trampled underfoot as worthless.
Matthew 5:13
Hebrews 10:26 is also informative. No sacrifices can be made for people who decide to sin after they find out about the truth. (Clearly, from these verses we have a burden once we are saved, and loss of salvation is the consequence for failure.)
4th, The gates of heaven will not be breached by mere lip serve. Real, living Faith = Belief + Action. See James 2:14-26. The idea that we can be saved and continue sinning with impunity is preposterous! One sealed by the Spirit would not live this way.
13 Because you, too, have heard the word of truth—the good news of your salvation—and because you believed in the One who is truth, your lives are marked with His seal. This is none other than the Holy Spirit who was promised 14 as the guarantee toward the inheritance we are to receive when He frees and rescues all who belong to Him. To God be all praise and glory!
Ephesians 1:13-14 (VOICE)
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Hello Behold,
Thank you for your insight and view points here.
What are the concepts or the is the definition of Legalism?
Hello Robert,
You know you are probably right about this as far as our national holidays celebrated here in America, these are the only two concepts that can think of when it comes down to tradition that has been passed down through the years.
Believe Enoch111, shared even more detailed insight to some traditions, that are held by men, this could even wave out even into the idea of traditions using the bible that involve indoctrination of a individual into those things of a cult.
Here is what Enoch111, had to say here below. You have any more thoughts on these things?
Thank you for your post, Robert.
You are very welcome, Matt
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
The tradition of men is the first. Tradition is paradosis, that which is given from one to another. Just because people have believed something and handed it down through the years does not make it true. Tradition usually serves merely to perpetuate error.
Notice what the Bible says about Divine tradition. 1 Corinthians 11:1,2 - Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. I praise you that you keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. Note the connection: Traditions are teachings that have been delivered. Paul praised them for keeping traditions.
Notice what the Bible says about Divine tradition. 1 Corinthians 11:1,2 - Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. I praise you that you keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. Note the connection: Traditions are teachings that have been delivered. Paul praised them for keeping traditions.
Interesting notes: Tsr thank you.
This would seem to indicate bad traditions and good traditions if Paul is expressing that by his example he shows to follow the example of Christ which was shown unto Him.
He also praises the Corinthians as well, for remembering everything - and for holding to the traditions just as Paul passed them on to them -> Meaning to lay hold of Christ, as Christ is our example to live by - by Gods ways, by the Lord Jesus Christ and his ways.
To forgive, to have mercy, to have love, to have joy, to have peace, to have a prayerful relationship, to hold on to hope of the promises found in the Gospels, and not lose heart, to continue to rejoice in hard times, and to always look towards heavenly things rather than things on earth by the spirit of christ/holy spirit given to us as believers.
This would seem to indicate bad traditions and good traditions if Paul is expressing that by his example he shows to follow the example of Christ which was shown unto Him.
He also praises the Corinthians as well, for remembering everything - and for holding to the traditions just as Paul passed them on to them -> Meaning to lay hold of Christ, as Christ is our example to live by - by Gods ways, by the Lord Jesus Christ and his ways.
To forgive, to have mercy, to have love, to have joy, to have peace, to have a prayerful relationship, to hold on to hope of the promises found in the Gospels, and not lose heart, to continue to rejoice in hard times, and to always look towards heavenly things rather than things on earth by the spirit of christ/holy spirit given to us as believers.
The traditions of the apostles were in fact teachings handed down to them by Christ. They in turn handed them down to the Christians within the apostolic churches, and also wrote them down so that we would know that they were.
But these are quite the opposite of "the traditions of men", which primarily deal with externals and ignore internal reality. The only way to avoid being ensnared in these humanistic ideas is to know what Scripture says. God sees the wisdom of men as foolishness: Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. (1 Cor 1:25-29)
To the world, the cross of Christ is foolishness. The world says "What could God possibly accomplish by having Christ crucified?" But God tells us that the cross represents the power of God over sin, death, Hades, Hell, and Satan: For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)
I would offer to look at the portion of scripture when the word of God was first written by the finger of God establishing his tradition as it is written. I think you could say the foundation of establishing tradtions as laws not sunject to change .
God proptecting the integrity of His word using two witnesses two tablets .Two is used that way to represnt the one withness of God in respect to Him and His Son or Christ and his bride throughout the Bible .
The first mention God hews out the stone and writes His thoughts with his finger. I would think to show he is not served by human hands in any way shape or form . Coming down from the mountain . . . the traditions of men simply made the word of God to no effect. They had no desire to believe in that tradition. Etched in stone.
The second step in the written tradition was for Moses to hew out the new tablets and again God wrote with his finger the words on both sides leaving no room . . Moses having part in the tradition of God but not the author of the words.
We could say how beautiful are the feet of the apostle Moses . . .shod with the gospel the law of love .
Exodus 31: 18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
The tables were written on both their sides. No room for the oral tradition I heard it through the grape vine of men
Exodus 32: 14-16 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written. And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
Exodus 34 King James Version (KJV) And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
God proptecting the integrity of His word using two witnesses two tablets .Two is used that way to represnt the one withness of God in respect to Him and His Son or Christ and his bride throughout the Bible .
The first mention God hews out the stone and writes His thoughts with his finger. I would think to show he is not served by human hands in any way shape or form . Coming down from the mountain . . . the traditions of men simply made the word of God to no effect. They had no desire to believe in that tradition. Etched in stone.
The second step in the written tradition was for Moses to hew out the new tablets and again God wrote with his finger the words on both sides leaving no room . . Moses having part in the tradition of God but not the author of the words.
We could say how beautiful are the feet of the apostle Moses . . .shod with the gospel the law of love .
Exodus 31: 18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
The tables were written on both their sides. No room for the oral tradition I heard it through the grape vine of men
Exodus 32: 14-16 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written. And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
Exodus 34 King James Version (KJV) And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
Very interesting thank you for sharing Gary, did not consider any of this before. It is new to me.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Its interesting that a legalist believes that giving Credit to Christ for keeping the born again saved, is something that Christ's blood does not complete.
So, you only point yourself out as a self saver, as a Christ's blood denying deceiver everytime you reply to me.
And you'll do it the next time as well if you try to teach or explain your anti-Cross theology.
And this is a good thing, because its useful for real believers to see and hear how legalist think.
Its good for real believers to understand How legalists like you reject God's Grace and find verses to twist and commentaries to paste that only highlights your deception for all to witness.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Your use of language is obtuse. I'm OK with the notion of Christ's blood 'completing' something as long as it is in the spirit of our actions 'starting' something as Christ said in Matthew 7:21.
IF what you said had any truth at all, we would not need faith, action pursuant to Matthew 7:21 and universalism would be proper doctrine.
Behold
Well-Known Member
IF you were ok with the Blood Atonement, you would not be on a public Christian Forum denying it, in favor of your self righteous Legalism.
Im the one here who is teaching the Grace of God AS the BLood of JESUS.
Not you.
Never you.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
You are teaching Once Saved, Always Saved. I’m quoting Scripture, Matthew 7:21, which does not support OSAS.
Behold
Well-Known Member
I dont teach OSAS or "eternal security", the way you misunderstand it.
I teach : "Jesus who saved you keeps you saved".
I teach "once born again, always born again".
I teach "the blood of Jesus that saved you, keeps you saved".
If you are able to understand those and see them as Salvation, then you will have found your first steps out of legalism.
Mathew 7 in regard to the “many” verse 22 is in the middle of offering a whole series of parables to teach us to beware of false prophets as false apostles who edify themselves or like Hebrews 6 they crucify Christ over and over every time they think they lost there salvation
The many did prophecy but not in His name or power. He did not say they did not cast out lying spirit. But that he never had a born again relationship with them. Not for one second did he knew them
God who is not served with human hands can use a unbeliever to prophecy declare the will.
Mathew 7:22_23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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