Trinity Belief and Born Again?

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XFire

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Again you can not take 1 scripture and teach anything.
all groups have their favorite scriptures to teach their side but what seems to be missing is Eph 4:11-13 but really it goes on.
That is to obey the first and second commandment.
See Christ didn't give a a big list of rules (laws) like the OT. The plan of salvation is easy and peaceable.
We as man have again made God unreachable when all he wanted was to have a relationship with his children.
Remember a parent loves their children more than the child love their parent (maybe except Jesus)
So this thread and possibly this whole web site shows the dishonor that we give to God because we choose the flesh over the love he wants us to hold in our hearts.
Brothers and sisters: I will love you even when you are ugly (no hairless animals here!). Lets pull each other up and enlighten each other on how to have a better relationship with who we say we worship
 

Rich R

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I respectfully disagree. Those who believe that once you’re “born again,” you can’t “die” again aren't taking into account the possibility that even born-again Christians can thereafter lapse into sin and choose to stay in sin.
1 Pet 1:23,

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
As far as I can tell, Peter said we are born again of incorruptible seed. Your first birth was of corruptible seed from your father. Now even though that seed is corruptible you are still your father's son, regardless of your behavior. You can't stop being your father's son because of seed. If that is true of corruptible seed, how much more so would God's incorruptible seed make you His son forevermore?

Eph 2:10,

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The incorruptible seed is God's workmanship. He did it. I know there are some who think a Christian can sin and loose the incorruptible seed and become un-born again (?, can't even do that with corruptible seed). I've asked many of them how many sins we get before it's too late. No answers to date.

I think the problem stems from not recognizing the different administrations and the different classes of people (Jew, Gentile, and born again Christians).
 

Rich R

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Predictably, this OP has morphed from (1) Must one believe in the accuracy of the Trinity in order to be saved? to (2) Is the Trinity accurate? to (3) Is the Trinity Biblical? At least the latter two questions have been beaten to death for months on this Forum in dozens of OPs and thousands of responses -- and neither those strings nor this one has or will change anybody's mind. So what are we doing here?

The more interesting question to me is, does anyone posting here truly believe they are going to change someone's mind on the Trinity? If anyone has a Yes answer to that question, I'd love to hear you explain why you think so.
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I used to believe the trinity and now I don't, so it must be possible to change. Having said that, I must say it is a rare event indeed, but still possible. Besides, who knows when a planted seed may spring to fruition?
 

theefaith

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Believers are not Christians but only catechumens

faith and baptism are required to be Christian
 

theefaith

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Only those who die in a state of grace as members of Christ are saved!
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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The more interesting question to me is, does anyone posting here truly believe they are going to change someone's mind on the Trinity? If anyone has a Yes answer to that question, I'd love to hear you explain why you think so

because the Trinity is Bible Truth, and God the Holy Spirit uses Bible Truth to convict/convince us of our errors!
 
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Rich R

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This verse in itself implies the Trinity. And all those who call upon the name of the Lord are baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. So there is no escaping the doctrine of the Trinity nor the doctrine of the deity of Christ.
I think you are talking about Matthew.

Matt 28:19,

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:​

Would you see the trinity in Daniel 3 just because it mentions Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego? When read as written, Matthew doesn't say anything about the three somehow being one any more than Daniel makes Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego into a trinity. When read as written without preconceived ideas, both simply mention three different entities.
 

theefaith

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water baptism is NOT a requirement for salvation. if it is, then the thief on the cross is in hell, and Jesus lied to him, by saying that he would be with Jesus in Paradise!

Except the thief was before the new covenant was in effect

heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

but please explain
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.


A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!



Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 2:1&5 brought to life in baptism
Eph 4:5 one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 and not the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!






“Faith alone”

Questions

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is not found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2
 

Rich R

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water baptism is NOT a requirement for salvation. if it is, then the thief on the cross is in hell, and Jesus lied to him, by saying that he would be with Jesus in Paradise!
I can''t for the life of me understand why both John's and Jesus' declarations are not clear enough to settle the question of water baptism.

Luke 3:16,

John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:​

Luke 24:49,

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
This is Jesus talking about Pentecost.

Acts 1:5,

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
The word "but" is a small word with huge implications. Normally we all understand exactly what it means. Not sure why the normal usage of words and grammar gets set aside when reading the scriptures. "But" sets in contrast. We see water being contrasted with power from on high and holy spirit.

Nothing wrong with water, but it pales in comparison to being baptized with holy spirit and being endued with power from on high.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Except the thief was before the new covenant was in effect

heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

but please explain
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.


A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!



Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 2:1&5 brought to life in baptism
Eph 4:5 one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 and not the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!






“Faith alone”

Questions

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is not found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

Firstly I don't believe in "faith alone", as it is not taught in the Bible.

Secondly, Jesus says in Mark 1:15, "REPENT and BELIEVE".

Thirdly, in your many quotes from the Bible, you omitted a very important passage from 1 Corinthains

I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one can say you were baptized in my name. I did, in fact, baptize the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t recall if I baptized anyone else. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with eloquent wisdom, so that the cross of Christ will not be emptied of its effect. - 14-17

Paul's language here is very important, I THANK GOD THAT I BAPTIZED NONE OF YOU. IF, water baptism is a condition for salvation, then Paul's words here are ERROR!

Further, Paul says, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel", which is clear that water baptism CANNOT be for salvation, and is NOT part of the Gospel Message for a sinners salvation.

This passage destroys the heresy that a sinner must be water baptised to be saved!
 

Rich R

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Rich, did you really mean to equate "born again" with getting saved?

I don't see the "born again" notion anywhere in the Athanasian Creed, which proclaims adherence to the doctrine of the Trinity as a prerequisite to being saved. Being "born again" is not the same as being saved (although it, also, may be a prerequisite to salvation).

It's your post, and you can equate "born again" and salvation if you want, but I think inviting debate on whether one who is "born again" is automatically saved will just distract from your main point -- which, by the way, is a great one.
Technically you might be right. I'll think about it. I'm not even sure of the Greek for "born again." Can I ask what you think to be the difference between "born again" and being "saved?"
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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I can''t for the life of me understand why both John's and Jesus' declarations are not clear enough to settle the question of water baptism.

Luke 3:16,

John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:​

Luke 24:49,

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
This is Jesus talking about Pentecost.

Acts 1:5,

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
The word "but" is a small word with huge implications. Normally we all understand exactly what it means. Not sure why the normal usage of words and grammar gets set aside when reading the scriptures. "But" sets in contrast. We see water being contrasted with power from on high and holy spirit.

Nothing wrong with water, but it pales in comparison to being baptized with holy spirit and being endued with power from on high.

well said brother!
 
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ByGraceThroughFaith

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Technically you might be right. I'll think about it. I'm not even sure of the Greek for "born again." Can I ask what you think to be the difference between "born again" and being "saved?"

In Titus 3:5, Paul uses the Greek compound word "παλινγενεσίας", which literally means "born-again"
 

theefaith

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Firstly I don't believe in "faith alone", as it is not taught in the Bible.

Secondly, Jesus says in Mark 1:15, "REPENT and BELIEVE".

Thirdly, in your many quotes from the Bible, you omitted a very important passage from 1 Corinthains

I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one can say you were baptized in my name. I did, in fact, baptize the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t recall if I baptized anyone else. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with eloquent wisdom, so that the cross of Christ will not be emptied of its effect. - 14-17

Paul's language here is very important, I THANK GOD THAT I BAPTIZED NONE OF YOU. IF, water baptism is a condition for salvation, then Paul's words here are ERROR!

Further, Paul says, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel", which is clear that water baptism CANNOT be for salvation, and is NOT part of the Gospel Message for a sinners salvation.

This passage destroys the heresy that a sinner must be water baptised to be saved!

Christ did indeed send Paul to baptize!!!!!!!
 

theefaith

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Faith and baptism
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38
Ez 36:25-27 1 pet 3:21
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Faith and baptism
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38
Ez 36:25-27 1 pet 3:21

notice the omission of water baptism in the second half of Mark. Acts 8 is not talking about water baptism for salvation. In verse 37, as in the KJV, which is part of Acts, it says, " And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God". is only AFTER this confession, that he was baptised. the Confession itself saved him.
 
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