Trinity Belief and Born Again?

[Bob Estey]

Yes. :) I mean, hey, Pearl can speak for herself, but... Yes. :)

Grace and peace to you, Bob.

A riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma?

 

[Bob Estey]

One with three equal parts.

I've never heard it put that way before.

 

[Pearl]

Well, it certainly is necessary to believe God is Who He says He is... :) But the saving ~ the mercy of God and the changing of one's heart ~ happens before this point.

So one does not need to believe in the Deity of Jesus to be born again and saved. We get re-birthed and are saved by the blood of Jesus when we accept him as our Lord and Saviour, and then, like all new-borns, we grow and learn and get to know his true identity as Immanuel - God with us.

 

[farouk]

So one does not need to believe in the Deity of Jesus to be born again and saved. We get re-birthed and are saved by the blood of Jesus when we accept him as our Lord and Saviour, and then, like all new-borns, we grow and learn and get to know his true identity as Immanuel - God with us.

I do think it's faith (Hebrews 11; John 3.16) rather than doubt that is rewarded....

 

[Pearl]

I've never heard it put that way before.

I have never heard any different. I was taught in the Church of England. What denomination were you taught your beliefs?

 

[Bemark]

It's not that hard. You have the spirit of God, the word of God bringing you to the father. There desire is you be one with them as they are one

 

[theefaith]

Eph 2:8,

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
​

Maybe I misunderstand you, but I don't see anything in this verse that indicates we are saved by something more than grace through faith.

(that verse refers the redemption accomplished by Christ without our participation, not justification or salvation see below)

Also, it is important to realize tht Mark 16:16 was spoken by Jesus to Israel BEFORE his death, resurrection, ascension, and most importantly, before the day of Pentecost. Later Jesus indicated that something would change after he ascended.

(there is only one savior and one gospel for all men Lk 2:10-11 Jn 1:29)

Luke 24:49,

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
​

What is it to be endued with power from on high? He answered that the very day he ascended.

Acts 1:4-5,

4 And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
​

I'm not sure how this could say anything other than baptism with holy spirit replaced water baptism. That little word "but" in verse 5 has a lot of meaning. It sets water in contrast to holy spirit. Whereas holy spirit it said to endue the recipient with power from on high, the scriptures never equate water with power. Water is symbolic and never made anything truly clean as does holy spirit.

Nothing wrong with water baptism, but it's not the same as holy spirit baptism for sure.

There is only one baptism eph 4:5 the Christian sacrament of baptism “including the Holy Spirit and fire”

 

[theefaith]

Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part!

Justification:
then when we believe in him and his redemption we are justified in that faith and baptism!

Sanctification:
then we are in Christ and his church by grace faith and baptism we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, other sacraments etc.

Salvation:
then when we are faithful to Christ and in his grace at death enter salvation!

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

 

[theefaith]

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!



Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 2:1&5 brought to life in baptism
Eph 4:5 one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 and not the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

 

[theefaith]

Mark 16:16 says that a person must believe, which is what saves them. it is only after they are saved, that they need to get baptised in water.

if that’s true then baptism is meaningless!

so when you first believed you were saved?

You cannot escape the fact, that the major Apostle chosen by God Himself, to go to the Gentile world, Paul, did not consider water baptism as part of a sinners salvation.

This is what the Bible says, and you are free to igore God's Word, or accept and follow it.

The Bible is also clear, that forgiveness of our sins is ONLY in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, nothing added! Hebrews 9:22, "without shedding of blood is no remission". NO mention of any water!

All grace is from the sacrifice of Christ!

how do we put on Christ? “And his merits /grace”?

 

[theefaith]

Correct, but do not forget that for one who HAS received Christ, by being Born Again of His Spirit, if any shall wilfully fall away from faith, due to unbelief, then that would be the act of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, of which there is never forgiveness again.

Heb.3 Verses 12 to 14[12] Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
[13] But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
[14] For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence [of belief and hope] stedfast unto the end;

true but we are born again by faith and baptism!



Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism / water)

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 2:1&5 brought to life in baptism
Eph 4:5 one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 and not the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

 

[theefaith]

Mark 16:16 says that a person must believe, which is what saves them. it is only after they are saved, that they need to get baptised in water.

You cannot escape the fact, that the major Apostle chosen by God Himself, to go to the Gentile world, Paul, did not consider water baptism as part of a sinners salvation.

This is what the Bible says, and you are free to igore God's Word, or accept and follow it.

The Bible is also clear, that forgiveness of our sins is ONLY in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, nothing added! Hebrews 9:22, "without shedding of blood is no remission". NO mention of any water!

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord

who is this speaking about???

 

[theefaith]

Do you believe there are three beings up there ruling the universe, or just one?

three beings yes if you mean persons! And one divine nature!

Co-eternal undivided trinity!

2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

(Referring to this Lord Jesus)

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

his divine power!

Lk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour!

Lk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Jesus Christ is God!

And it is bound on earth by the Authority of Jesus Christ in his church by the holy apostolic council and therefore bound in heaven! Matt 16:18 18:18

 

[Bemark]

For most simple people who don't even know the Bible...who get born again, who NOW for the first time experience God's love, havent a clue that they had to pass a test to achieve this.

God has not made it that hard to be born again.

I would more argue the case ...if you are born again ....do you know him?

Does he know you! Many will come in that day and say ...

 

[Bemark]

There is eternally saved born again and then the regeneration that comes from daily eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Because the wages of sin is death

Entering his kingdom. The Lord's prayer

 

[theefaith]

Do you believe there are three beings up there ruling the universe, or just one?

what do you mean by up there?

God nature is spirit and He is everywhere!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Can a person deny Jesus Deity and be saved ?

I mean, strange as it sounds…I think yes. It is possible to speak against Jesus and be forgiven.
31 “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven.32 Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.

 

[Episkopos]

what do you mean by up there?

God nature is spirit and He is everywhere!

Yes. And that's why there doesn't need to be a separate person called the Holy Spirit. Are God's fingers different persons? Does His presence require another more powerful Spirit than He Himself in order to be everywhere?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I mean, strange as it sounds…I think yes. It is possible to speak against Jesus and be forgiven.
31 “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven.32 Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.

There is even a passage which reads as if some who had no idea who Jesus was will be welcomed in simply because they helped someone who belonged to Him and that those who did have an idea who Jesus was but failed to discern His body will be rejected!
The first say, huh…? When did we ever see You and help you…?
The second say, huh…? When did we ever see You and NOT help You…?

 

[theefaith]

For most simple people who don't even know the Bible...who get born again, who NOW for the first time experience God's love, havent a clue that they had to pass a test to achieve this.

God has not made it that hard to be born again.

I would more argue the case ...if you are born again ....do you know him?

Does he know you! Many will come in that day and say ...

how do we get born again?

how do we put on Christ?