Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

[Dave L]

Yes! Some almost certainly are as I understand it. However, the judgment on that also is not mine or yours, is it?

"Almost certainly" are saved = not saved.

 

[amadeus]

"Almost certainly" are saved = not saved.

Dave why do you insist on absolutes when you know less than God? Hey, you're not alone. I also know less than God. Is any man not in this category? This is why the judgment is not ours to make.

 

[Dave L]

Dave why do you insist on absolutes when you know less than God? Hey, you're not alone. I also know less than God. Is any man not in this category? This is why the judgment is not ours to make.

You must believe all are lost unless baptized in Jesus' name and speak in tongues, No?

 

[amadeus]

You must believe all are lost unless baptized in Jesus' name and speak in tongues, No?

I never said that and even when I was a part of the UPC I did not believe it. It is one reason I left them in 1987. I still don't believe it. Quit looking for absolutes! Only God possesses them all.

 

[101G]

Because you need to know what you have involved yourself in. How about women trimming split ends? Do you also think they open themselves to demon possession if they do?

dave?, demon possession? ... WHAT? 1 John 4:4 "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

dave once you're born of God, you're his. just as Nicodemus asked "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?". the answer to that is NO, when one is born of God, it's no going back. you're his.

demon possession? ...

PICJAG

 

[Dave L]

dave?, demon possession? ... WHAT? 1 John 4:4 "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

dave once you're born of God, you're his. just as Nicodemus asked "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?". the answer to that is NO, when one is born of God, it's no going back. you're his.

demon possession? ...

PICJAG

I'm just checking into how much UPC doctrine you embrace. No clear answer tells me a lot. Do you believe that only those baptized in Jesus' name and speak in tongues are saved?

 

[101G]

I'm just checking into how much UPC doctrine you embrace. No clear answer tells me a lot. Do you believe that only those baptized in Jesus' name and speak in tongues are saved?

(smile), see me and UPC differ here, "diversity", "another" of the same one in flesh..... BINGO.

PICJAJ

let me give you just one scripture that qualify this doctrine. Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me".

now dave, who is the "ARM" of God?... LOL, LOL, LOL, BINGO.. JESUS the Christ the "ARM" of God or the "ANOTHER" of God in flesh, supportive scripture, Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us".

just as Isaiah said, listen. Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isaiah 53:4 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted
.Isaiah 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

THERE he is, see dave the ARM of God is God, my "OWN" arm. that's why Jesus says while in flesh, "my" Father? why, because he is him. that's my Spirit.... lol. so easy. Oh well.

PICJAG.

 

[Helen]

It is the trinity that sets Christianity apart from all other religions and cults.

And Dave, you know that is not true!
It is by our WALK ..
The trinity has nothing at all to do with it...it was OTHERS who named them "Christians", not their belief in the trinity. "They were first called 'christians' at Antioch. "

16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. "

Prov 20 11 "Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right. "

We are never, never known by what we believe.
Belief 'sets us apart' and divides us, but it is not what defines us.

 

[Helen]

You cannot know Christ, who is the truth, without knowing the truth about him.

Oh golly, Now who is crazy...snatching at straws now Dave.

Bless you!

 

[Helen]

When is enough, enough?

I guess not until we stop answering this stuff.

 

[Helen]

Do you think people are saved who are not baptized in Jesus' name and speak in tongues?

And, as my old mum used to say.."What has that got to do with the price of eggs?" She also said.." Ask a silly question then your'll get a silly answer."

Of course they are saved!

 

[justbyfaith]

Do you believe women who cut their hair open themselves for demon possession? Even if the cut a split end?

How about women trimming split ends? Do you also think they open themselves to demon possession if they do?

Believe it or not, my wife exhibited clear signs of demonic possession immediately after cutting her hair (I wouldn't take it as far as trimming split ends). Once it grew back, she was fine.

God's word is truth.

Jhn 5:39, Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jhn 5:40, And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Do you think people are saved who are not baptized in Jesus' name and speak in tongues?

Do you believe that only those baptized in Jesus' name and speak in tongues are saved?

These signs shall follow them that believe...and therefore speaking in tongues is a sure sign of saving faith....however it is not a requirement for salvation.

I know however that in my own life I at one time had a personal struggle that I would not have survived if not for the fact that I was able at that time to keep myself in the love of God through praying in the Holy Ghost.

But technically, not everyone experiences such a struggle, and scripture teaches that not everyone in the church speaks in tongues....just like everyone in the church does not have the gifts of teaching, healing, etc.

Being baptized in Jesus' Name, I am not sure that it is a requirement for salvation. Acts 2:39 + Romans 8:30 is one evidence to me that it might be; however my personal position is that those who believe in Him should not perish, but that those who believe and are baptized shall be saved...and therefore baptism in Jesus' Name is a point of contact by which we obtain faith for a salvation that cannot be taken away. Once a person is baptized in Jesus' Name (providing that the fear of the LORD abides in their hearts) they are eternally secure; being sealed by the Holy Ghost. So the ordinance as I preach it is a point of contact for obtaining absolute assurance that you are saved...and of course there are scriptures that teach that a man can be saved by faith alone (Romans 4:6 being one of them).

 

[Dave L]

Believe it or not, my wife exhibited clear signs of demonic possession immediately after cutting her hair (I wouldn't take it as far as trimming split ends). Once it grew back, she was fine.



Jhn 5:39, Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jhn 5:40, And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.





These signs shall follow them that believe...and therefore speaking in tongues is a sure sign of saving faith....however it is not a requirement for salvation.

I know however that in my own life I at one time had a personal struggle that I would not have survived if not for the fact that I was able at that time to keep myself in the love of God through praying in the Holy Ghost.

But technically, not everyone experiences such a struggle, and scripture teaches that not everyone in the church speaks in tongues....just like everyone in the church does not have the gifts of teaching, healing, etc.

Being baptized in Jesus' Name, I am not sure that it is a requirement for salvation. Acts 2:39 + Romans 8:30 is one evidence to me that it might be; however my personal position is that those who believe in Him should not perish, but that those who believe and are baptized shall be saved...and therefore baptism in Jesus' Name is a point of contact by which we obtain faith for a salvation that cannot be taken away. Once a person is baptized in Jesus' Name (providing that the fear of the LORD abides in their hearts) they are eternally secure; being sealed by the Holy Ghost. So the ordinance as I preach it is a point of contact for obtaining absolute assurance that you are saved...and of course there are scriptures that teach that a man can be saved by faith alone (Romans 4:6 being one of them).

How about Jesus denying oneness in this passage? This alone disproves all that you say.

“It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.” (John 8:17–19) (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

And, as my old mum used to say.."What has that got to do with the price of eggs?" She also said.." Ask a silly question then your'll get a silly answer."

Of course they are saved!

United Pentecostals do not believe anyone is saved unless baptized in Jesus' name resulting in speaking in tongues. They embrace Baptismal Regeneration just as the Catholics do.

Many other crazy notions exist too if you do an independent search.

 

[justbyfaith]

How about Jesus denying oneness in this passage? This alone disproves all that you say.

“It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.” (John 8:17–19) (KJV 1900)

No; for I hold that the Father and the Son are distinct within the Trinity.

You are discounting the possibility that each member of the Trinity can both be the same Person and also a different Person, each of them individually.

You are also assuming that I am preaching Oneness Pentecostalism to the hilt; when what I am really doing is preaching something in between Trinitarianism and Oneness Pentecostalism.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are the same Spirit, the same Lord, the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

Is the Father a man?

No; but He is a Spirit that is distinct (but not separate) from the Son.

The same Spirit (the Father) dwells in the Son.

I have a question for you: Do you confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh?

If so, then how is it that He rose to fill all things?

How can He both be Omnipresent and also dwell in a finite human body?

My answer is, that in the person of the Son (2nd Person), who is a flesh and blood human being, He is dwelling in a finite human body; but that His Spirit (by extension, Him) is the infinite and Omnipresent God who created us all. So when He released His Spirit back to the Person (1st Person) who inhabiteth eternity...who is the one Spirit (John 4:23-24, Ephesians 4:4) that is God...now there are two Spirits (so to speak) inhabiting eternity who are the same Spirit.

Try to think of the implications of an eternal being descending into time and then ascending back to be outside of time...the end result would be two eternal beings dwelling outside of time...the 1st, being that eternal person who started out, and the 3rd, being that eternal person who had been through it all. Thus He would be the one Spirit who proceeds from the one Spirit; even the same Spirit (see Ephesians 4:4, John 15:26).

This is another reason why it is unpardonable to blaspheme the Holy Ghost but not unpardonable to blaspheme the Father if you believe in the Trinity and do not have a Oneness perspective. Because the Holy Ghost is much more on our side, since He understands humanity; while the Father has never been human. Therefore it is that much more of an insult to speak against the One who is seeking to win you to Christ with a perfect understanding of human psychology in mind.

 

[Dave L]

No; for I hold that the Father and the Son are distinct within the Trinity.

You are discounting the possibility that each member of the Trinity can both be the same Person and also a different Person, each of them individually.

You are also assuming that I am preaching Oneness Pentecostalism to the hilt; when what I am really doing is preaching something in between Trinitarianism and Oneness Pentecostalism.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are the same Spirit, the same Lord, the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

Is the Father a man?

No; but He is a Spirit that is distinct (but not separate) from the Son.

The same Spirit (the Father) dwells in the Son.

I have a question for you: Do you confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh?

If so, then how is it that He rose to fill all things?

How can He both be Omnipresent and also dwell in a finite human body?

My answer is, that in the person of the Son (2nd Person), who is a flesh and blood human being, He is dwelling in a finite human body; but that His Spirit (by extension, Him) is the infinite and Omnipresent God who created us all. So when He released His Spirit back to the Person (1st Person) who inhabiteth eternity...who is the one Spirit (John 4:23-24, Ephesians 4:4) that is God...now there are two Spirits (so to speak0 inhabiting eternity who are the same Spirit.

Try to think of the implications of an eternal being descending into time and then ascending back to be outside of time...the end result would be two eternal beings dwelling outside of time...the 1st, being that eternal person who started out, and the 3rd, being that eternal person who had been through it all. Thus He would be the one Spirit who proceeds from the one Spirit; even the same Spirit (see Ephesians 4:4, John 15:26).

This is another reason why it is unpardonable to blaspheme the Holy Ghost but not unpardonable to blaspheme the Father if you believe in the Trinity and do not have a Oneness perspective. Because the Holy Ghost is much more on our side, since He understands humanity; while the Father has never been human. Therefore it is that much more of an insult to speak against the One who is seeking to win you to Christ with a perfect understanding of human psychology in mind.

Scripture teaches that God is eternal. And the Father eternally begets the Son. If the Father changes into the Son, who begets him? Another way of putting it. The flame causes the water to boil. If the flame becomes the water, what is left to make it boil?

 

[justbyfaith]

United Pentecostals do not believe anyone is saved unless baptized in Jesus' name resulting in speaking in tongues.

That would place me outside of the Oneness denomination; since I hold that there is a possibility that some who have not been baptized in Jesus' Name might be saved (though my exhortation would be that you not gamble on eternity). And I also have said that I hold to the biblical view that not everyone in the body of Christ necessarily speaks in tongues.

And yet I consider myself Oneness in that I have received Acts 2:38 salvation and know that it was indeed the thing in my life that gave me absolute assurance of my salvation. I also consider myself Oneness in that I emphasize the Oneness of the Lord in my understanding of the real Trinity. I know that I have escaped the heresy of Tritheism, is what I am saying.

 

[Dave L]

That would place me outside of the Oneness denomination; since I hold that there is a possibility that some who have not been baptized in Jesus' Name might be saved (though my exhortation would be that you not gamble on eternity). And I also have said that I hold to the biblical view that not everyone in the body of Christ necessarily speaks in tongues.

And yet I consider myself Oneness in that I have received Acts 2:38 salvation and know that it was indeed the thing in my life that gave me absolute assurance of my salvation. I also consider myself Oneness in that I emphasize the Oneness of the Lord in my understanding of the real Trinity. I know that I have escaped the heresy of Tritheism, is what I am saying.

"Some might be saved"?

 

[justbyfaith]

Scripture teaches that God is eternal. And the Father eternally begets the Son. If the Father changes into the Son, who begets him? Another way of putting it. The flame causes the water to boil. If the flame becomes the water, what is left to make it boil?

The flame becomes the water but continues to be the flame; for he goes forward to the incarnation but also stays behind since He inhabits eternity and this cannot cease for that is the nature of eternity (this is possible from God's perspective; for there are ten dimensions).

The begetting of the Son has to do with the fact that God the Father prepared a body for His Spirit to dwell in (Hebrews 10:5).

Please give scripture that might tell me that the origin of the Son is that He is eternally generated rather than begotten in the incarnation (which, I say, is substantiated by Matthew 1:18-20 and Luke 1:35).

"Some might be saved"?

Yes; for whosoever believeth in Him "should" not perish but have everlasting life; but those who believe and are baptized "shall" be saved.

 

[Dave L]

The flame becomes the water but continues to be the flame (this is possible from God's perspective; for there are ten dimensions).

The begetting of the Son has to do with the fact that God the Father prepared a body for His Spirit to dwell in (Hebrews 10:5).

Please give scripture that might tell me that the origin of the Son is that He is eternally generated rather than begotten in the incarnation (which, I say, is substantiated by Matthew 1:18-20 and Luke 1:35).



Yes; for whosoever believeth in Him "should" not perish buy have everlasting life; but those who believe and are baptized "shall" be saved.

You cannot remove the cause and still have the effect. That is, you cannot change the cause (the Father) into the effect (the Son) and have either.