1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Trinity vs. Tritheism

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by justbyfaith, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,447
    Likes Received:
    1,485
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes....took part in
    Yes....took on him

    Already clarified, he took upon himself the likeness of men...

    What is "your" point?

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  2. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,715
    Likes Received:
    2,303
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    First, allow me to remove some assumptions you are making about what I believe. I agree with you wholly that Jesus 'came forth from God". His first cognisance of existence did not begin in Bethlehem. Secondly, Becoming a child as you correctly say, did not constitute His being 'created', for as He spoke Himself through the Spirit..."a body hast Thou prepared for Me". However, I do believe He was truly human, and I will post shortly my reasons why I do.
     
  3. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,715
    Likes Received:
    2,303
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made…. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten‖ John 1:1 –3, 14
    <><><>
    And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.‖ Luke 1:30-36
    <><><>
    Thou madest him [man] a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.‖ Hebrews 2:7 10
    <><><>
    Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he [Jesus] also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.‖ Hebrews 2:14 18 (If He was unlike us in any way, He could not be our High Priest).
    <><><>
    Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.‖ Hebrews 4:14-16
    <><><>
    Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: ―Hebrews 10:5
    <><><>
    Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.‖ Philippians 2:5 -8 (If Christ was not human, He could not die. If He was not God, He could not be a propitiation, being only a human sacrifice.)
    <><><>
    But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.‖ Galatians 4:4-5
    <><><>
    For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:‖ Romans 8:3
    <><><>
    Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:1 John 4:2
     
  4. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,447
    Likes Received:
    1,485
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Okay.

    Expounding to what you said...

    'Jesus came forth "OUT" from God"

    Which is to say, Jesus WAS IN GOD, before He came forth OUT from God.

    That does not APPLY to Humans.

    John 16:
    [27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

    John 17:
    [8] For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

    Isa 55:
    [11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  5. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,652
    Likes Received:
    2,037
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Have you considered Oneness' denial of the Father and the Son, (two persons) is a trait of those with the "spirit of Antichrist"?

    They broke off from Christendom in the early 1900s.

    “They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.” (1 John 2:19) (HCSB)

    “Who is the liar, if not the one who denies that Jesus is the Messiah? This one is the antichrist: the one who denies the Father and the Son.” (1 John 2:22) (HCSB)

    Jews who rejected Jesus believe basically the same as Islam, Oneness, and JWs by denying the trinity. Christianity is the only religion that worships God in trinity.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  6. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,652
    Likes Received:
    2,037
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    the doctrine of the Trinity can be summarized in seven statements. (1) There is only one God. (2) The Father is God. (3) The Son is God. (4) The Holy Spirit is God. (5) The Father is not the Son. (6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit. (7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

    The Athanasian Creed puts it this way: “Now this is the catholic [universal] faith: That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons, nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit, still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.”

    Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects monarchianism which believes in only one person (mono) and maintains that the Son and the Spirit subsists in the divine essence as impersonal attributes not distinct and divine Persons.

    Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects modalism which believes that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different names for the same God acting in different roles or manifestations (like the well-intentioned but misguided “water, vapor, ice” analogy).

    Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects Arianism which denies the full deity of Christ.

    And finally, orthodox Trinitarianism rejects all forms of tri-theism, which teach that the three members of the Godhead are, to quote a leading Mormon apologist, “three distinct Beings, three separate Gods.”
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  7. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    2,662
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Your posts are partly true and partly false in this thread.

    1. In the OT the uni-plural word Elohim is translated as *God*, but you are missing the plurality within the Godhead by saying that only the Father is God: "That God, is the Father".

    But we can see the plurality within the Godhead right at the beginning:
    And God [Elohim] said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Gen 1:26)

    2. Also, you have quoted Matthew 28:19, then turned around and said that Christians must be baptized in the name of Jesus only. However, since Jesus is the Son, and He is the one who commanded Christians to be baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, you have created a conflict unnecessarily, and resorted to Oneness doctrine.

    3. You are also claiming that baptism is for salvation, and that is incorrect.

    4. You are further claiming that God predestines some for salvation, and that too is incorrect.

    So it appears that you are partly Roman Catholic ad partly Calvinist. Not a good position to be.
     
  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    2,662
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Since an archangel is simply a chief angel, and all angels are creatures commanded to worship the Son, it follows that archangels are also creatures, just like the Cherubim (called living creatures) and the Seraphim. When Scripture speaks of throne, dominions, principalities, and powers, it is a reference to the hierarchies within the angelic realm. And the Bible says that Christ created these angels.

    COLOSSIANS 1
    15 Who [CHRIST] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    There is no way that Michael can be equated with Christ, and that idea is refuted in the book of Jude.
     
  9. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,652
    Likes Received:
    2,037
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Keep in mind, the OP admits never studying the doctrine of the trinity and attacks his idea of what he thinks others teach about the trinity. This is a "straw man" argument from start to finish.
     
    Reggie Belafonte likes this.
  10. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,652
    Likes Received:
    2,037
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION (One of many statements on the Trinity in scripture)

    CHAPTER III

    Of God, His Unity and Trinity

    GOD IS ONE. We believe and teach that God is one in essence or nature, subsisting in himself, all sufficient in himself, invisible, incorporeal, immense, eternal, Creator of all things both visible and invisible, the greatest good, living, quickening and preserving all things, omnipotent and supremely wise, kind and merciful, just and true. Truly we detest many gods because it is expressly written: “The Lord your God is one Lord” (Deut.6:4). “I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:2-3). “I am the Lord, and there is no other god besides me. Am I not the Lord, and there is no other God beside me? A righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me” (Isa. 45:5, 21). “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness” (Ex. 34:6).

    GOD IS THREE. Notwithstanding we believe and teach that the same immense, one and indivisible God is in person inseparably and without confusion distinguished as Father, Son and Holy Spirit so, as the Father has begotten the Son from eternity, the Son is begotten by an ineffable generation, and the holy Spirit truly proceeds from them both, and the same from eternity and is to be worshipped with both.

    Thus there are not three gods, but three persons, cosubstantial, coeternal, and coequal; distinct with respect to hypostases, and with respect to order, the one preceding the other yet without any inequality. For according to the nature or essence they are so joined together that they are one God, and the divine nature is common to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    For Scripture has delivered to us a manifest distinction of persons, the angel saying, among other things, to the Blessed Virgin, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God” (Luke 1:35).

    And also in the baptism of Christ a voice is heard from heaven concerning Christ, saying, “This is my beloved Son” (Mat. 3:17). The Holy Spirit also appeared in the form of a dove (John 1:32).

    And when the Lord himself commanded the apostles to baptize, he commanded them to baptize “in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 28:19).

    Elsewhere in the Gospel he said: “The Father will send the Holy Spirit in my name” (John 14:26), and again he said: “When the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me,” etc. (John 15:26).

    In short, we receive the Apostles’ Creed because it delivers to us the true faith.

    HERESIES. Therefore we condemn the Jews and Mohammedans, and all those who blaspheme that sacred and adorable Trinity. We also condemn all heresies and heretics who teach that the Son and Holy Spirit are God in name only, and also that there is something created and subservient, or subordinate to another in the Trinity, and that there is something unequal in it, a greater or a less, something corporeal or corporeally conceived, something different with respect to character or will, something mixed or solitary, as if the Son and Holy Spirit were the affections and properties of one God the Father, as the Monarchians, Novatians, Praxeas, Patripassians, Sabellius, Paul of Samosata, Aetius, Macedonius, Anthropomorphites, Arius, and such like, have thought.



    Various authors. (n.d.). THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION Trinity.
     
    Reggie Belafonte likes this.
  11. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,933
    Likes Received:
    1,145
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    correct, the Lord was made a man. he took on the nature, not the "partaker" of it. hence no hypostatic union
     
    Taken likes this.
  12. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,933
    Likes Received:
    1,145
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    correct, this is what we been saying, "took part", vs "partaker" is not the same.
     
  13. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,933
    Likes Received:
    1,145
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    GINOLJC, to all.

    christian need to understand two things, 1. God is one person, not three. example in the topic "who is Christ Jesus" the answer will settle the question of "persons".

    for the understanding is the "Son" on the throne. but the Lamb who was dead and is now alive, who is the root of David, the first and the last TOOK the book from the one on the throne. so the question who is the LAMB

    anyone who believe in the trinity can answer.

    who is the Lamb?

    PICJAG
     
  14. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,447
    Likes Received:
    1,485
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Human men have natural flesh and natural blood, a makeup of part of their BODY.

    A natural mans BODY "thus" partakes in having flesh and blood, like all other natural men.

    And a human mans blood IS the LIFE of the mans body.

    And a humans mans flesh AND blood is naturally born Corrupt.

    Jesus ALSO had flesh and blood....thus SIMILAR to a human man....Jesus ALSO partook that HIS body was to ALSO have flesh and blood, that God prepared for Him.

    The BLOOD of Jesus, is in itself DIFFERENT from a Human mans BLOOD. THUS while mankind and Jesus "PARTOOK" of having the same things, concering their BODIeS...

    Jesus and mankind DID NOT HAVE the SAME BLOOD or the SAME FLESH.

    Mankinds came from Dust.
    Jesus' was prepared of God.

    Jesus' Blood was PURE, and precisely why it was Acceptable to be Given (spilled), FOR the forgiveness of mans Corrupt body.

    Jesus' BLOOD was not the LIFE of His BODY.
    The LIFE of Jesus' BODY IS the Spirit of God.

    Men can receive the SAME LIFE IN their BODY, as Jesus IS the SEED of God and can enter a man, which Plants Gods SEED, for a mans Spirit to become born again.

    Some teach the Partaking, means, Jesus and mankind had the SAME KIND of flesh and blood...which is False.

    If a mans BLOOD were pure...he could forgive himself, and have no need for Jesus' BLOOD.

    God Bless,
    Taken
     
  15. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,652
    Likes Received:
    2,037
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    = false Christ.

    The hypostatic union, in contrast, is an important christological designation. At the Council of Chalcedon in A.D. 451 the church declared the doctrine of the hypostatic union. The doctrine is an attempt to describe the miraculous bringing together of humanity and divinity in the same person, Jesus Christ, such that he is both fully divine and fully human.

    Grenz, S., Guretzki, D., & Nordling, C. F. (1999). In Pocket dictionary of theological terms (p. 62). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  16. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,991
    Likes Received:
    909
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    In His Deity He was uncreated. In His humanity He was indeed made (Romans 1:3, Isaiah 45:11).

    Maybe you should ask the Holy Spirit...He is the One who wrote it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,991
    Likes Received:
    909
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    @Dave L's contention is that he thinks that I deny the Trinity. He is mistaken on this. I affirm the Trinity; but emphasize the Oneness of God in order to defeat the heresy of Tritheism; which he apparently believes in: otherwise he wouldn't be raising such a stink about my doctrine.
     
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,991
    Likes Received:
    909
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I contend faithfully that there is one God and Lord present at Jesus' baptism.
     
  19. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,652
    Likes Received:
    2,037
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You should point out the problems in the above trinity doctrine post I provided to prove you wrong.
     
  20. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,652
    Likes Received:
    2,037
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    But you deny the doctrine of the trinity.
     
Loading...