Two particular problems with dispensationalism...

[Davy]

And this is exactly what the mid-Tribulationists and post-Tribulations totally forget. Those periods (Tribulation and Great Tribulation) are for the unbelieving, the ungodly, the plain wicked, and the enemies of God and Christ. And it is the Abomination of Desolation which triggers the Great Tribulation.

Nah, that's not true. The following verses are for Christ's Church, especially His saints that are in Jerusalem in that time of great tribulation. In the Luke 21 version, Jesus says for those of His in the countries to not enter into Jerusalem at that time. Furthermore, the gathering of the saints examples in Matt.24 and Mark 13 directly parallel the gathering of the Church in 1 Thess.4. And the events Jesus gave upon the Mount of Olives are the Seals of Rev.6, which His Revelation is for all Christian Churches, all the way to the end.

Matt 24:15-26
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
KJV

 

[marks]

But as I understand it, Dispensationalists would then be in a bind of sorts. How could they take both passages 'literally'? To meet the 7 years...the x amount of days (sorry, can't be bothered looking them up now, but basically 2 lots of 3 and a half years), AND having that 'time cut short'...wouldn't that mean that one of those passages would be wrong? Unless cutting the time short WAS 7 years. In other words, it was supposed to be much longer and 7 years IS the short version!

Hi Naomi,

I think a literal reading of the passage is that Those days have been truncated. had not those days been truncated . . .

I think that this means the timing given is what the end has been limited to.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I wish you and I were sat at a table with our Bibles open in front of us, so that we could study the Scriptures together, and discuss our various differences of understanding in the light of God's Word, it would be so interesting, with great opportunity.

That would be good!

 

[farouk]

I wish you and I were sat at a table with our Bibles open in front of us, so that we could study the Scriptures together...

A health way of proceeding.

 

[Enoch111]

Furthermore, the gathering of the saints examples in Matt.24 and Mark 13 directly parallel the gathering of the Church in 1 Thess.4.

The elect in Matthew 24 are not the Church, and what you have said in your post is not the truth either. All you have to do is closely compare what is revealed about the Rapture (BEFORE the Second Coming of Christ) and what is revealed about the gathering of the believing Jewish remnant (AFTER the second coming of Christ).

THE SECOND COMING (WITH THE SAINTS AND ANGELS)
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

THE GATHERING UP OF THE BELIEVING JEWISH REMNANT (THE ELECT)
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Davy]

The elect in Matthew 24 are not the Church, and what you have said in your post is not the truth either. All you have to do is closely compare what is revealed about the Rapture (BEFORE the Second Coming of Christ) and what is revealed about the gathering of the believing Jewish remnant (AFTER the second coming of Christ).

The elect in Matthew 24 most definitely is... Christ's Church. You are simply taught they aren't by the doctrines of men you follow instead. The pre-trib rapture spin doctors don't want you to believe Jesus is addressing His whole Church there, because He is giving the true... order of events leading up to His coming to gather His Church, i.e., AFTER the tribulation of those days, like He said there in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

The Matthew 24:29-31 version is about the gathering of the 'asleep' saints in Heaven, those Paul said Jesus will bring with Him per 1 Thess.4. The Mark 13:24-27 version is about the gathering of the Church that is still alive on earth on that day of His coming in the clouds, and that is the "caught up" event that Paul taught in 1 Thess.4. You are simply taught to deny that because of following the pre-trib rapture theory. Yet there it is, plain as day. And many non-pre-tribbers even miss it because they don't compare the Matt.24 gathering version with the Mark 13 version.

But of course, you're not interested in what those Scriptures reveal, because you didn't even properly quote them, and you only quoted one of the two examples.

 

[charity]

The elect in Matthew 24 most definitely is... Christ's Church. You are simply taught they aren't by the doctrines of men you follow instead. The pre-trib rapture spin doctors don't want you to believe Jesus is addressing His whole Church there, because He is giving the true... order of events leading up to His coming to gather His Church, i.e., AFTER the tribulation of those days, like He said there in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

The Matthew 24:29-31 version is about the gathering of the 'asleep' saints in Heaven, those Paul said Jesus will bring with Him per 1 Thess.4. The Mark 13:24-27 version is about the gathering of the Church that is still alive on earth on that day of His coming in the clouds, and that is the "caught up" event that Paul taught in 1 Thess.4. You are simply taught to deny that because of following the pre-trib rapture theory. Yet there it is, plain as day. And many non-pre-tribbers even miss it because they don't compare the Matt.24 gathering version with the Mark 13 version.

But of course, you're not interested in what those Scriptures reveal, because you didn't even properly quote them, and you only quoted one of the two examples.

Hello @Davy,

It is a shame that you feel the necessity to resort to accusation and insult, for it is not necessary; it merely widens the breach between one brother and another; when if you got alongside and discussed these things rationally it would be possible to find mutual understanding and edify one another.

* 'The Church which is His (Christ's) body, the fullness of Him That filleth all in all', which is being called out today, was not made known until after Israel went away into blindness and unbelief at the end of the Acts period (Acts 28:25-31): before that the knowledge concerning this company was 'hidden in God', therefore unknown to any but God Himself (Ephesians 3:9; Colossians.1:26). It was Divinely made known to Paul, and administered by Him from prison, in the epistles to the Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians particularly; 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon being of a more personal nature.

* So, no, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 do not apply to the Church of this dispensation, but to the redeemed of Israel in particular.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Hidden In Him]

The first one: Teachers for the Rapture always say that God will take us out of the world before pouring out his wrath on it. They cite passages such as: 1 Thess 1:10, 1 Thess 5:9, Luke 21:36. All about escaping the coming wrath. My question is this: I can find nowhere that states that this 'wrath' must be judgement poured out in the Tribulation. In fact, in context, it seems much more likely that what is being talked about is both wrath and judgement of ultimate finality. In some passages it talks of them being under wrath but us having ultimate salvation, for example:
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ - 1 Thessalonians 5:9

Hi Naomi. Hope you are well.

I haven't read through the entire thread, but if you are still interested in this topic, on question #1 the wrath Paul was talking about was spoken of in the context of the rapture of the church. The full text reads:

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:1-9)

In context, he is tying the salvation they were appointed to specifically to the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, when He comes as a thief to steal the church away. Likewise, His wrath is tied to the same event here.

Right...question two: They also seem to, as far as I can tell, assume that the phrase "the Day of the Lord" means the Tribulation period.

If you look, Paul ties the Day of the Lord to Christ's return in the above passage as well (v.2), when He comes as a thief to steal the church away. But technically, His wrath doesn't begin until after the tribulation ends and the church is then taken out.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden

 

[Davy]

Hello @Davy,

It is a shame that you feel the necessity to resort to accusation and insult, for it is not necessary; it merely widens the breach between one brother and another; when if you got alongside and discussed these things rationally it would be possible to find mutual understanding and edify one another.

* 'The Church which is His (Christ's) body, the fullness of Him That filleth all in all', which is being called out today, was not made known until after Israel went away into blindness and unbelief at the end of the Acts period (Acts 28:25-31): before that the knowledge concerning this company was 'hidden in God', therefore unknown to any but God Himself (Ephesians 3:9; Colossians.1:26). It was Divinely made known to Paul, and administered by Him from prison, in the epistles to the Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians particularly; 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon being of a more personal nature.

* So, no, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 do not apply to the Church of this dispensation, but to the redeemed of Israel in particular.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

It's a shame that some come here claiming to follow God's Holy Writ and instead are more interested in keeping men's traditions than staying with the simple written Word of God.

That's really what you don't like me doing, i.e., me singling out that false Pre-trib Rapture doctrine and proving it's not a doctrine from God's Word.

 

[marks]

The elect in Matthew 24 most definitely is... Christ's Church. You are simply taught they aren't by the doctrines of men you follow instead. The pre-trib rapture spin doctors don't want you to believe Jesus is addressing His whole Church there, because He is giving the true... order of events leading up to His coming to gather His Church, i.e., AFTER the tribulation of those days, like He said there in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

The Matthew 24:29-31 version is about the gathering of the 'asleep' saints in Heaven, those Paul said Jesus will bring with Him per 1 Thess.4. The Mark 13:24-27 version is about the gathering of the Church that is still alive on earth on that day of His coming in the clouds, and that is the "caught up" event that Paul taught in 1 Thess.4. You are simply taught to deny that because of following the pre-trib rapture theory. Yet there it is, plain as day. And many non-pre-tribbers even miss it because they don't compare the Matt.24 gathering version with the Mark 13 version.

But of course, you're not interested in what those Scriptures reveal, because you didn't even properly quote them, and you only quoted one of the two examples.

Hi Davy,

I'm guessing that you see the Sheep and Goats judgment as either a parable, or as another telling of the Great White Throne judgment. I'm I right? Or did I get it wrong?

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Hi Davy,

I'm guessing that you see the Sheep and Goats judgment as either a parable, or as another telling of the Great White Throne judgment. I'm I right? Or did I get it wrong?

Much love!

Wrong.

I don't see it as either.

 

[Enoch111]

* So, no, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 do not apply to the Church of this dispensation, but to the redeemed of Israel in particular.

This is correct, and it was already addressed, but some people simply cannot abandon their errors.

 

[Davy]

* So, no, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 do not apply to the Church of this dispensation, but to the redeemed of Israel in particular.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

What Jesus showed in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 about His coming to gather the saints AFTER... the tribulation, is the SAME event Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. There is no 'secret rapture' of the Church. Jesus returns only ONE time, and that is on the last day of this world. That is when He gathers His Church as written.

Matthew version - saints gathered from Heaven, i.e., the 'asleep' saints of Paul.
Mark version - saints gathered from the earth, i.e, those that remain and are alive that are "caught up" per Paul.


Christ's Olivet discourse = the Seals of Revelation 6.

Jesus was giving the main signs of the end in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 involving not only Jerusalem, but for the whole Church. That's why He said in the Luke 21 version for those in the countries to not enter into Jerusalem when those events begin to transpire.

 

[charity]

What Jesus showed in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 about His coming to gather the saints AFTER... the tribulation, is the SAME event Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. There is no 'secret rapture' of the Church. Jesus returns only ONE time, and that is on the last day of this world. That is when He gathers His Church as written.

Matthew version - saints gathered from Heaven, i.e., the 'asleep' saints of Paul.
Mark version - saints gathered from the earth, i.e, those that remain and are alive that are "caught up" per Paul.

Christ's Olivet discourse = the Seals of Revelation 6.

Jesus was giving the main signs of the end in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 involving not only Jerusalem, but for the whole Church. That's why He said in the Luke 21 version for those in the countries to not enter into Jerusalem when those events begin to transpire.

'Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,
.. and the moon shall not give her light,
.... and the stars shall fall from heaven,
......and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
.. and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
.... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
and He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
.. and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds,
.... from one end of heaven to the other.'
(Matthew 24:29-31)

'But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall He send His angels,
and shall gather together His elect from the four winds,
from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.'
(Mark 13:24-27)

'But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
.. that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
.... For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
...... even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
........ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
.......... that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
.. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
.... to meet the Lord in the air:
...... and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
........ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.'
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

 

[Davy]

'Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,
.. and the moon shall not give her light,
.... and the stars shall fall from heaven,
......and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
.. and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
.... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
and He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
.. and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds,
.... from one end of heaven to the other.'
(Matthew 24:29-31)

'But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall He send His angels,
and shall gather together His elect from the four winds,
from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.'
(Mark 13:24-27)

'But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
.. that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
.... For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
...... even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
........ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
.......... that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
.. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
.... to meet the Lord in the air:
...... and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
........ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.'
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

All SAME EVENT, like I've been saying.

And you should have made bold what Paul said about Jesus bringing the asleep saints with Him from Heaven...

.... For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
...... even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

That is the resurrection that happens first for those in Christ that had already died. Jesus brings those with Him when He comes, which is the group of saints gathered in Matthew 24:29-31.

Those of the so-called 'rapture' are the Mark 13 group of saints gathered from the earth.

Simple. Both groups are gathered at the same time at Jesus' coming. All one need do is read and heed.

 

[charity]

All SAME EVENT, like I've been saying.

And you should have made bold what Paul said about Jesus bringing the asleep saints with Him from Heaven...

.... For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
...... even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

That is the resurrection that happens first for those in Christ that had already died. Jesus brings those with Him when He comes, which is the group of saints gathered in Matthew 24:29-31.

Those of the so-called 'rapture' are the Mark 13 group of saints gathered from the earth.

Simple. Both groups are gathered at the same time at Jesus' coming. All one need do is read and heed.

'For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.'
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.'
(1 Thessalonians 4:15)

Hello @Davy,

Paul is confirming in 1 Thessalonians 4, what the Lord Himself said in Matthew 24, I agree. It had the potential to have taken place at the end of that dispensation, had Israel obeyed God's Word delivered by Peter in Acts 3:19-20.

'Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.'
(Act 3:19-21)

* For then Christ would have returned, and all would have taken place as prophesied (Joel 2:30-31/Acts 2:16-21). However, it now awaits a future day.

'And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:
for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said,
and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.'
(Joel 2:30-32)

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris


*

 

[Davy]

'For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.'
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.'
(1 Thessalonians 4:15)

Hello @Davy,

Paul is confirming in 1 Thessalonians 4, what the Lord Himself said in Matthew 24, I agree. It had the potential to have taken place at the end of that dispensation, had Israel obeyed God's Word delivered by Peter in Acts 3:19-20.

'Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.'
(Act 3:19-21)

* For then Christ would have returned, and all would have taken place as prophesied (Joel 2:30-31/Acts 2:16-21). However, it now awaits a future day.

'And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:
for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said,
and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.'
(Joel 2:30-32)

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris


*

And Jesus, if they had not crucified Him, might have been their King then. But we wouldn't have had His Salvation, because His first coming was to die on the cross for the remission of sins of those who believe. Yet that is not what those things in His Olivet discourse there is about.

Those signs in Matt.24 and Mark 13 are the signs of the Seals in Revelation 6. Both of those Chapters are a parallel study with Rev.6. Those signs are about the events at the end of this world, leading up to His return.

But what the pre-trib rapture theory wrongly teaches, is that those signs our Lord Jesus gave His disciples upon the Mount of Olives aren't meant for the Church, when His Church of both believing Jew and believing Gentiles is exactly who He gave those things to. The main reason why the pre-trib rapture school refuses to accept what our Lord Jesus taught there being for the Church, is because of Christ's direct statement of when He returns to gather the saints, i.e., His Church. He showed it will be after... that tribulation, not prior to it like the pre-trib rapture school wrongly teaches.

 

[Naomi25]

Well the precedence for a gap was given by Yeshua when He stood up in the synagogue and read Isaiah 61:1-2. He stopped just before "And the day of vengeance of our God" in verse 2. That part would come at least 2000 years later.

The very large, and profound difference I see here is this: Jesus is God. When Jesus tells you that there is a gap in Isaiah, we can go, "well alright then"...even if there is no direct and specific reference to a gap in the scripture.
However, when it comes to the gap that Dispensationalists insist is there, but is also not directly or specifically mentioned, they do so on their own authority, without, as far as I can see, any weighty biblical evidence to back it up.
Bit of a difference.

The 70 weeks given to Daniel, the 69 were literal weeks of years from the decree to rebuild the city right on up thru the death of Yeshua. Many have worked out the math and conclude that the 69 weeks ended at that time.

Now, if the weeks of years had up to that point been literal in their fulfillment, there is no justification to seeing the 70th week any different. And if there was no gap, then all should have ended in 39AD and we wouldn't be discussing this. It is clear just that we are discussing it that there is a gap implied. And again, since there is no justification for looking at the 70th week other that a literal week of years, 7 years, it must be a literal 7 year period yet future.

Sorry, but no it is not 'clear' that there is an implied gap. There are other, biblical interpretations for the '70 weeks'. And while none of them are what I'd call perfect, they still can be argued from a biblically faithful standpoint. Your view, with it's 'obvious/not obvious' gap is just another interpretation that has it's strengths and weaknesses.
From my point of view, in cases such as these, weighing up the 'viewpoint' that has the least weaknesses and assumptions to its name, is the one that ought to be looked at most seriously. And in my opinion, that is not the Dispensational model.

The key to all of it is who it was meant for. Gabriel was quite clear that all the weeks, including the final 70th week of years is regarding Daniel's people and the city. What goes on the rest of the planet is not the focus. And in Daniel's prayer to the Father just before Gabriel showed up, Daniel clearly lumped all the tribes into one basket. Just like 2 Chronicles shows us before the exile, as does Ezra and Nehemiah after Daniel and the exile. Daniel's people, even of the final 70th week, are all the Hebrew people and the focus is on them in the city, Jerusalem. Either that, or Daniel and Gabriel had no clue what they were talking about.

Again, the problem I have with this is the outright assumption that it has nothing to do with the Church; especially when we come to the NT and see that these things are not so easily divided anymore. Where once 'the temple of God' was clearly a reference to the actual temple, in the NT we see it referring to the people of God; the Church. We see in Revelation that the Church, the bride of Christ, IS, in a way, described as the New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven. We see references throughout the NT to the people who are the 'children of promise'...those people who are truly recieving the promises given to Abraham. Not those of the flesh, but those of the spirit; the Church.
So, in fact when we look at it closely, we see that the Church has been grafted into Israel, and that much of what is talked off and promised in the OT about Israel therefore does apply to us.

 

[Keraz]

Sorry, but no it is not 'clear' that there is an implied gap.

I agree with Copperhead on this. That there is a gap; is proved by the fact of there having passed nearly 2000 years since Jesus was here last. Jesus Himself prophesied it in Luke 13:32. One 'day' while He is in heaven is equal to 1000 years earth time.

So, in fact when we look at it closely, we see that the Church has been grafted into Israel, and that much of what is talked off and promised in the OT about Israel therefore does apply to us.

As we are grafted into the Israel of God, all the Promises of God to Israel, do apply to us, Christians from every tribe, [of Israel] race, nation and language.

 

[Naomi25]

Because it is born of desperation to give meaning to the 2300 days. Others claim it as a part, or the whole, of Antiochus reign...both a fail.

Actually brakelite, I think one of the "best" fits for the 70 weeks I've come across was from Walter Veith in those talks you linked me to. I certainly didn't agree with him on everything, but I found that most interesting and even sound...perhaps even better than what I've heard from Amil scholars.