Two Ways of thinking about OSAS

[FHII]

FHill,

Do you see what you have done in providing another red herring logical fallacy? In #91 I presented a number of points to which you should have responded, but you ignored those points to provide your own agenda in this 2-line response.

Your response did not deal with my content, thus you have created another red herring. Why must you continue to do this? Don't you want to understand what you do in this erroneous reasoning? It makes having a reasonable conversation with you impossible. That's what the use of logical fallacies does to dialogue.

Oz

Like i said, you proved my point. I said you would not listen and accuse me of more of your fallacies, which is exactly what you did.

 

[FHII]

1John 1:8-10 is addressed to Christian believers, those of whom it is said "our fellowship is with the Father and his Son Jesus Christ" (1 John 1:3) and "if we say we have fellowship with him" (1 Jn 1:8). For these Christians who sin after becoming Christians, we are instructed:

It is a requirement for Christians who sin after becoming believers that they confess their sins to God to obtain His forgiveness and cleansing. There are also times when we sin against another person that we need to confess our sins to that person to obtain his/her forgiveness (Col 1:13 ESV; James 5:16 ESV).

What I am writing has biblical support.

Oz

Again, 1 John 1:8-10 is speaking on confessing our sins to God. Col 3:13 is speaking of forgiving each other. Different circumstances . both talking about asking forgiveness, but not to the same party. They are only vaguely related.

Besides, i stated that asking forgiveness of god is necessary. I believe we should forgive each other as col3:13 says, and we should ask god for forgiveness from god as 1 john 1 says. You must've missed that.

 

[FHII]

By the way Oz, if you really want to connect col 3:13 to 1 john 8-10, there is a way to do it. Its through mat 6:14-15, where it explained that if we forgive others, God will forgive us. But we must do both: ask forgiveness of God and forgive others. Bring THIS into the discussion, and you may have a point. You did mention it briefly, but not in our discussion.

 

[justaname]

Here is an interesting portion of scripture. It shows how there is no tension in biblical instruction and admonishing.

16 Rejoice always,
17 pray without ceasing,
18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
19 Do not quench the Spirit.
20 Do not despise prophecies,
21 but test everything; hold fast what is good.
22 Abstain from every form of evil.
23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it. - 1 Thessalonians 5:16-24

I do not rejoice always if I am honest. Does this place my salvation in jeopardy? Right now I am typing not praying, so easily I can say I do not pray without ceasing. I have never even witnessed this in anyone, ever. I know of times where I was asking God why and not giving Him thanks. Yes in my selfishness suffering from the pain of a broken bone or morning over the death of a loved one, I was not thanking God. I can not honestly say I abstain from all evil, thinking of coveting, or sins of omission, vanity, pride. Yet I can say not in every situation do I fail responding as instructed, and if you were to look at the whole of my life, more importantly after I was born from above, I more reflect the positive than the negative. What then is happening here in this text? Paul is admonishing and encouraging the children of God.

I would like everyone to meditate on verse 23 and 24.

23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it. - 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24

Those who never or seldom pray, fear the Lord. Those who hate to rejoice at another's success or in the face of adversity, check your faith that God is in control. Those who do not thank God for their circumstances are likely thanking themselves be it good or bad their current situation.

In all of this though it is God who sanctifies you, not that you could keep yourselves. Yet without the fruit of the Spirit, there is not evidence of the Spirt. What then are you believing in is what I would question. Where is your faith, and in whome does it reside? Because He who calls is faithful! He will complete what He begins! His children will all be accounted for at the consummation of all things, for He knows who are His and they will be kept blameless. Is santification synergistic? Yes without question, yet this is not what brings about salvation. God brings about salvation through our response of faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. We are to cooperate with the santification, this not quenching the Spirit. This is the call and fulfillment of love that is intrensic in the biblical message. This is the fruit of the Spirit. Love is a choice and an action. This living of love is not an option for the child of God, but is the natural outpouring of the Holy Spirit. As the Christian matures in his/her walk, this choice becomes easier and more evident, as she/he puts on Christ.

Where the debate begins is if salvation is synergistic. I argue it is not. I argue salvation is an act of God. Salvation is a miracle in action for all who receive it. I argue salvation glorifies God and His great name and He is desevernt of full credit. Not partial credit because of my good behavior or good decision making. Salvation screams out God is merciful, because we all deserve His wrath fully to the dregs. All of us except Him who did bear His wrath fully, who took on the sins of the world, and is the propitiation. He who knew no sin, took on sin. Praise and thanks be to the risen Lamb, He who is worthy to open the scroll and break the seals, so as to dispense His wrath. Onto Him has been given judgement, and His judgment is righteous and true.

What then about the admonishing and exhortation? Why even do it if you are either saved or not saved, if you have no choice in the matter? Because God is good and holy and He calls everyone to repentance. Because God is just and will judge everyone based on what they have done be it good or bad. Because we are made in His image, and reflecting evil in any form is sinning against a righteous and holy God. Because by doing so, admonishing and exhorting, we bring glory and honor to God. Because we live in a fallen world where sin abounds and we are called to be a city on a hill, light to the darkness. Because this is what God has called us to do and His children seek to please Him.

Let me close with a similar passage.

24 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,
25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. - Jude 1:24-25

 

[StanJ]

God's written word is simple and to the point and does not require verboseness order long drawn-out arguments to prove its simple truth.

Paul's simple teaching in 2 Tim 2 does not need a lot of dissecting. It follows his admonition and exhortation that has always been very close to my heart.
You will find it in my signature at the bottom of each post. Then you will find the following very simple statement as to men going astray once they have known the truth.

Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth.

Paul had intimate knowledge of these two men and knew they had the truth yet fell away into ungodly false teaching. To ignore this very simple warning from Paul is to do so at one's own peril. Nobody can separate us from God, except ourselves!

 

[OzSpen]

Again, 1 John 1:8-10 is speaking on confessing our sins to God. Col 3:13 is speaking of forgiving each other. Different circumstances . both talking about asking forgiveness, but not to the same party. They are only vaguely related.

Besides, i stated that asking forgiveness of god is necessary. I believe we should forgive each other as col3:13 says, and we should ask god for forgiveness from god as 1 john 1 says. You must've missed that.

Therefore, are we on the same page in affirming that after we become Christians, we may still commit sins. When that happens, we are to confess our sins to God (1 John 1:8-10). Is that your understanding?

After becoming Christian, if we sin against another person, we are also to seek forgiveness from that person (Col 3:13). Is that how you see it?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

By the way Oz, if you really want to connect col 3:13 to 1 john 8-10, there is a way to do it. Its through mat 6:14-15, where it explained that if we forgive others, God will forgive us. But we must do both: ask forgiveness of God and forgive others. Bring THIS into the discussion, and you may have a point. You did mention it briefly, but not in our discussion.

I agree with your conclusion (I presume you mean 1 John 1:8-10).

 

[H. Richard]

Heb 7:18-22 (NKJ)
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

The above is very simple. Sinful flesh can not keep the perfect laws of God therefore Jesus made a better way. That way is faith in what He did on the cross.

I think most miss the point that because of the weakness of sinful flesh God has made a better way that does not depend on people becoming strong and able to stop sinning in the flesh. When the scriptures tell us we have been set free what does it mean to these people? Set free of what?

Don't people understand that God knows we can not keep His perfect laws and the scriptures tell us that Jesus did it for us. If Jesus did it for us then why are all these people on forums telling us that we have to do it ourselves?

Common sense tells me that if a person is putting their faith in Jesus' work on the cross to pay for their sins then THEY ARE CONFESSING THAT THEY SIN IN THE FLESH and need Jesus' work on the cross to save them.

How many times have you observed the blockage of the sanctuary doorway because people want to stop in that doorway to talk. That is not showing love for others it is showing love for themselves because they have no concern for those trying to exit the sanctuary. I bet some of them are on these forums.

 

[FHII]

Therefore, are we on the same page in affirming that after we become Christians, we may still commit sins. When that happens, we are to confess our sins to God (1 John 1:8-10). Is that your understanding?

After becoming Christian, if we sin against another person, we are also to seek forgiveness from that person (Col 3:13). Is that how you see it?

Oz

It done correctly, you don't have to continue to ask forgiveness for sins. Confess you are a sinner and need forgiveness for being a sinner, and you only need forgiveness once. After that, your sins are covered and not imputed to you.

Yes, we should ask for forgiveness if we offend others.

 

[StanJ]

Heb 7:18-22 (NKJ)
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

The above is very simple. Sinful flesh can not keep the perfect laws of God therefore Jesus made a better way. That way is faith in what He did on the cross.

I think most miss the point that because of the weakness of sinful flesh God has made a better way that does not depend on people becoming strong and able to stop sinning in the flesh. When the scriptures tell us we have been set free what does it mean to these people? Set free of what?

Don't people understand that God knows we can not keep His perfect laws and the scriptures tell us that Jesus did it for us. If Jesus did it for us then why are all these people on forums telling us that we have to do it ourselves?

Common sense tells me that if a person is putting their faith in Jesus' work on the cross to pay for their sins then THEY ARE CONFESSING THAT THEY SIN IN THE FLESH and need Jesus' work on the cross to save them.

How many times have you observed the blockage of the sanctuary doorway because people want to stop in that doorway to talk. That is not showing love for others it is showing love for themselves because they have no concern for those trying to exit the sanctuary. I bet some of them are on these forums.

Hebrew 12:1 deals with this issue very succinctly. We don't give up trying to be whole in God, but we can't possibly be sinless as Jesus was.

As far as your beef about people standing in the doorway maybe you guys should have more than one exit from your sanctuary?

 

[StanJ]

It done correctly, you don't have to continue to ask forgiveness for sins. Confess you are a sinner and need forgiveness for being a sinner, and you only need forgiveness once. After that, your sins are covered and not imputed to you.
Yes, we should ask for forgiveness if we offend others.

You're right we don't have to continue to ask for forgiveness but we do have to continue to confess our sins. Confessing means to agree with God that our actions are sinful. If we don't confess those sins, they're never forgiven. 1 John 1:9

 

[H. Richard]

Hebrew 12:1 deals with this issue very succinctly. We don't give up trying to be whole in God, but we can't possibly be sinless as Jesus was.

As far as your beef about people standing in the doorway maybe you guys should have more than one exit from your sanctuary?

Now you know it wouldn't make any difference how many doors there are it is the fact that people only think of themselves. <_<

 

[StanJ]

Now you know it wouldn't make any difference how many doors there are it is the fact that people only think of themselves. <_<

You mean the way you're grumpy about the exit being blocked?

 

[OzSpen]

It done correctly, you don't have to continue to ask forgiveness for sins. Confess you are a sinner and need forgiveness for being a sinner, and you only need forgiveness once. After that, your sins are covered and not imputed to you.

Yes, we should ask for forgiveness if we offend others.

That's not what 1 John 1:8-10 teaches. As long as I continue to sin (and that will be until my dying day), I will need, as a Christian, to continue to ask God for his forgiveness.

When I sought God's forgiveness at salvation, I was justified by faith. I was declared righteous, which is a forensic act of being able to enter God's presence. It does not mean that I am declared so righteous that I will never sin again and will not need to seek his forgiveness when I sin.

Oz

 

[StanJ]

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we CONFESS our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

We have to understand the word 'confess' here basically means to agree with God that what he calls sin is indeed sin. It is the same confession that we make when we are saved. We confess Jesus as Savior which means we agree and recognize with God that Jesus is the Messiah the savior of mankind. Along with that confession comes a degree of remorse and recognition that we do fall short of the goal. The point is that Jesus has already paid the price for that sin and so it's not a matter of asking for forgiveness or absolution, because it has already been paid for. Personally I feel that this need for asking forgiveness stems from the Catholic Church and it's confessional system that required that a person would enter the confessional with the words; "Forgive me Father for I have sinned."
If we recognize it is sin then that recognition is covered by our original confession of Jesus as our Messiah and is included, thus we are automatically forgiven. If we don't recognize what we do as sin then we're disagreeing with God that it is sin, and the sin cannot be included in our original confession as being sin that was forgiven.

 

[FHII]

That's not what 1 John 1:8-10 teaches. As long as I continue to sin (and that will be until my dying day), I will need, as a Christian, to continue to ask God for his forgiveness.

When I sought God's forgiveness at salvation, I was justified by faith. I was declared righteous, which is a forensic act of being able to enter God's presence. It does not mean that I am declared so righteous that I will never sin again and will not need to seek his forgiveness when I sin.

Oz

It doesn't. Teach your assertations either. It merely says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive them. It doesn't give us a schedule. It doesn't say to ask daily, weekly or yearly and it doesn't say we can't ask once for forgiveness.

So is faithfulness to forgive only daily or did he make one sacrifice for sin forever?

Now, you say he made us righteous but not so righteous that we don't need to ask for forgiveness, but the verses you are referring to say he clensed us of ALL unrighteousness.

So if we are cleansed of all unrighteousness, yet aren't totally righteous, where are we? Well, i would say if Jesus Christ the righteous is in us, we are all righteous! His righteousness is sufficient.

So let me make my point again.... 1 john 1:8-10 only tells us to confess our sins. It doesn't give any requirement as to how often.

If you ask forgiveness for sins, i agree you have to keep on top of it. But if you are forgiven for being a sinner, well then its forgiven as long as you stick with the covenent of faith.

I'll add that there is nothing wrong with confessing and asking forgiveness from God at any time. Only that it's not necessary. Personally, I'd rather give thanks every day for what he already did than to ask him for it again.

 

[FHII]

Now you know it wouldn't make any difference how many doors there are it is the fact that people only think of themselves. <_<

I donno H. Richard... That's a pretty wacky pet peeve! Sure i got some too. But why not stay and talk to them too? You in that big a hurry to get out of Church?

I do have a simple solution to that problem: say, "excuse me".

 

[StanJ]

So let me make my point again.... 1 john 1:8-10 only tells us to confess our sins. It doesn't give any requirement as to how often.
If you ask forgiveness for sins, i agree you have to keep on top of it. But if you are forgiven for being a sinner, well then its forgiven as long as you stick with the covenent of faith.
I'll add that there is nothing wrong with confessing and asking forgiveness from God at any time. Only that it's not necessary. Personally, I'd rather give thanks every day for what he already did than to ask him for it again.

I'll go out on a limb here (not really) and say that as soon as God says it's wrong we have to confess it. Of course the point is that we have to be able to hear when God is speaking to us and pay attention to what he's saying. The 'Our Father' gives us a good example of why we should do this daily.

 

[OzSpen]

It doesn't. Teach your assertations either. It merely says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive them. It doesn't give us a schedule. It doesn't say to ask daily, weekly or yearly and it doesn't say we can't ask once for forgiveness.

That is not what the Greek text states in 1 John 1:9 (ESV), 'If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness'. The Greek text is: ἐὰν ὁμολογῶμεν τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν, πιστός ἐστιν καὶ δίκαιος ἵνα ἀφῇ ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας καὶ καθαρίσῃ ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἀδικίας.

• 'Confess', ὁμολογῶμεν, is present tense so it means continuous or continual action. So, the meaning is, 'If we continue to confess our sins';
• 'He is', ἐστιν, is present tense of the verb, meaning, 'he continues to be' faithful and just, '
• 'to forgive', ἀφῇ, i.e. 'he may forgive', aorist tense (point action, i.e. an act of forgiveness) - by God;
• 'to cleanse', καθαρίσῃ, i.e. 'he may cleanse', aorist tense (point action, i.e. an act of cleansing) - by God.

So, the Greek text confirms that we continually confess our sins to God - whenever we sin - and each time we confess God forgives and cleanses.

I am not teaching my own personal assertions but what the Bible teaches, according to the exegesis of the Greek text.

Seems like you don't want to accept this.

Oz

 

[FHII]

You have committed an emocon fallacy!