Understanding John's Revelation

[101G]

Second, these "witnesses" are killed in the location "where their Lord was crucified." Thus, I do not see how this could be referring to Jesus or John since the crucifixion clearly occurred prior to the murder of these witnesses. So, let's peek at this vision from the perspective of a suffering, frightened Christian who is worried of losing their home, or their heads for the Gospel.

a good though and view, not challenging your view in respect. but remember, John is also looking back through history. so the two witness comes before the crucifixion. and "from the perspective of a suffering, frightened Christian who is worried of.....", the Lord Jesus said, "I have overcome". for to know the Lord and the POWER of his resurrection is a faith building witness for any christian. but we'll get to that later. so we'll wait on n2thelight on his views on chapter 1.

 

[Wormwood]

a good though and view, not challenging your view in respect. but remember, John is also looking back through history. so the two witness comes before the crucifixion. and "from the perspective of a suffering, frightened Christian who is worried of.....", the Lord Jesus said, "I have overcome". for to know the Lord and the POWER of his resurrection is a faith building witness for any christian. but we'll get to that later. so we'll wait on n2thelight on his views on chapter 1.

I understand what you are saying that you see John as looking back historically in this vision. However, it seems odd to me to describe the city where these witnesses were killed as the location where "their Lord was killed." Jesus doesn't have a Lord...so how can this place be described as the place where his Lord was crucified?

“καὶ τὸ πτῶμα αὐτῶν ἐπὶ τῆς πλατείας τῆς πόλεως τῆς μεγάλης, ἥτις καλεῖται πνευματικῶς Σόδομα καὶ Αἴγυπτος, ὅπου καὶ ὁ κύριος αὐτῶν ἐσταυρώθη.” (Revelation 11:8, NA27)

The bold text here literally says, "where also the Lord of them was crucified."

Id be happy to throw in my two cents on chapter 1 as it is discussed.

 

[n2thelight]

I agree, 100%. go ahead and start it off with your views on chapter 1.

Okay,guess I'll start with the Churches
Most only think the Churches were for just back then,however they are types of the different Churches of today,and what's being taught in them

Very important to understand why Christ had no problems with the Church of Smyrna and Philadelphia

 

[101G]

Okay,guess I'll start with the Churches

n2thelight, I'm sorry I didn't see your post earlier, if you don't mind can we examine the first block of 7 that get to the seven churches listed in verse 11 you speak of and take it from there. thanks.


GINOLJC, to all. Revelation chapter 1. we will first post, and then discuss our views. I’ll start it off with a block of 7 scriptures for us to digest.

THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST.

This book is about the Lord Jesus Christ, the only true God, verse 1 makes this very clear.
Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John”
The preface, here in verse 1 tells us who the Lord Jesus is, God almighty himself in Spirit, and shared in flesh and bone, (chapter 5 will bare that out). the key here is who sends “HIS” angel to John, (chapter 22:6 bear this out also). second, verse 1 tells us that the book is first, audience relevance to his servants, in John time and beyond. “to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass”. shortly in God time is past present and future. so the book is for the Lord Jesus servants, looking at past, present, and future events (1:19). in short the book is contemporary for all Generation who read it. so the book is for the reader today.

Revelation 1:2 "Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
John is a witness in that he’s not a martyr, but gives a testimony, or record to events. but then one have a witness, martyr who are killed for that same testimony, or have given evidence to a recorded to events

Revelation 1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
one gets a blessing by just reading the book, and they who hear the prophecy. but the important thing is those who keep these prophecy, meaning to clearly understand them. keep here, means to practice them. one cannot practice what they don’t know and understand.

Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
this letter is sent first, to the seven churches, the first contemporary audience who it was relevance to. and the verse gives the first 2 title of the one true God, the Lord Jesus.

Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
then the one unmistakable title of our God by name, Jesus Christ, the faithful witness. the first begotten of the dead, the prince, who is King of kings. “HIS” blood, the human nature that he “took on”, and was not a partaker of, but took on, means additional. and the life he took on was blood.

Revelation 1:6 "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
and by washing us in his own blood, now we can serve him in spirit and in truth as priests and kings, meaning having authority, in both worlds spiritual and secular .
NOTE: THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.

Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
the risen Christ, returns the way he left, in clouds (Acts 1:10 & 11). I’m of the belief that our Lord’s return was two fold return. first in Spirit, where only he was manifested to the disciples in the gifts. but his second fold return is when “EVERY” eye will see the manifested God in Flesh and bones. which will be the wrath to come.


this first block of scriptures is open for your review.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, I'll finish out the chapter.
Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty".
The title Alpha and Omega identifies the person who this revelation from, (see verses 4 & 5). the beginning and the ending is saying he's the FIRST and the Last. he who which is, and which was, and which is to come is the three dispensation, or administration of God. Spirit, ("which is" Genesis 1:1), spirit shared or diversified in Flesh, ("Which was" John 1:1), and Spirit, glorified in flesh and bone, (which is to come Revelation 1:1). the Almighty, (see Isaiah 9:6).

Revelation 1:9 "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ".
John and all who name the name of Christ was in tribulation, (flesh) but in the kingdom, (Spirit). John was a witness for the Lord Jesus Christ. and this witness span past, present, and future.

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet".
John was in the Spirit on earth in his body vs chapter 4 when he was out of his body in heaven. and this was on the Lord's day, (the day of wrath?, I don't know. for there are several day of the Lord). the Lord was speaking unto John.

Revelation 1:11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
I'll leave this space for our brother, n2thelight, to comment. only John was on the earth and in his body when he got the revelation. like wise God appeared unto John.

Revelation 1:12 "And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks"
seven golden candlesticks are the seven churches, but notice he said, candlesticks, which are holders and not the candles.

Revelation 1:13 "And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle".
The Son of Man is the Spirit state state of Christ now Glorified. so John saw in a vision, God's righteousness, as the expression, "clothed with a garment down to the foot". but the next description is unmistakable, "and girt about the paps with a golden girdle", this is the
GREAT HIGH PRIEST the Lord Jesus the Christ.

Now John describes or gives an account of this office

to understand what John saw one must start at the Crucifixion. did God forsake the son on the cross. answer, NO. as a matter of fact, when Jesus said that it is finished, yes, on Sin in the world, but the glory and, the wonderful work of God just began. after preaching to the spirits in prison, then the day of Pentecost.

This answer, of God forsaking the son, is bared out in Isaiah chapter 59, the word forsaking, (forsook), means separation, the Spirit "hid his face from us, so that he will not hear", (see Isaiah 59:2). because the sins of the whole world will be laid on him. God cannot dwell in an unclean place. the scripture is clear, God will never forsake you, read Hebrews 13:15. and he didn’t here. He prepared himself for glorification. the whole chapter of Isaiah 59 is worth reading.

The great work of redemption by our GREAT HIGH PRIEST, starting with Peter and the disciples, being filled with, and the actions of the Holy Spirit is confirmed in the book of Acts chapter 2 &3 respectively, but this is revealed perfectly in the book of Revelation here chapter 1 verses 13-16"

Revelation is symbolic. verse 13 "clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle", this shows his High Priest Role in his Church, supporting Scripture, Exod. 28:1-29 "And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons. 2 And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty. 3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. 4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. 5 And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen"

now if you keep on reading, the Golden ephod and girdle, is shown. read on unto verse 29. his head and hair is white, symbolic, meaning he is the head of the church, and the Government is on his shoulder, just where a head should be, on the shoulders. supporting scripture, Isa 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace". and he is the wisdom of the Church, the white or grayed head/hair represent wisdom, and long life. Job 12:12, "With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding. 13 With him is wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding". which he is, the wisdom of God, the wisdom of God?, see All of proverb. not just chapter 8 and verse 22, or chapter 30 verse 4, but all of proverbs. the Great wise God, 1Tim 1:17 "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen".. Immortal, and he has long life, eternal. wool, as white as snow, this is his righteousness, to make us clean, supporting scripture, Isa 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool". now, to the back up that scripture, 1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin". "his eyes as a flame of fire", his eyes is his omniscient, he sees all, and knows all. if you been following these description, you can see that he is not only, omniscient, omnipresent, but also Omnipotent. here fire purify, for he is a refiner fire. his feet is the bring of the Gospel to the world. it is done by him in us. Rom 10:15 "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" and how is Jesus doing this?, through his church, us, his body. some may say Jesus didn't go into all the world physically, oh yes, because he said whosoever hear you, hear me. when Paul step in Asia, and Greece, Jesus step there, when Peter step in Rome, Jesus step there, how is this you might say, because we are his hands and his feet, his body. Just as the Body was prepared for the Spirit to come in. now, "and his voice as the sound of many waters". Rom 10:18 "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world". lastly, "and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword", that's self explanatory, the word of God, that's him. so we see him in his Office of HIGH PRIEST as the Holy Spirit. what a revelation.

Revelation 1:16 "And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
The right hand symbolize power, and the seven stars are his messengers who have power to preach the gospel. the glory of God as with his transfiguration on the mountain top, brighter than the natural sun. which there will be no need for the sun.

Revelation 1:17 & 18 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death".
this is the Lord Jesus the "FIRST" and the "LAST" as in Genesis 1:1 the Aleph and the tav. this is God almighty.

Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
past, present and future events.

Revelation 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches".
the seven stars (messengers) are the bishops or pastors, or the leaders of those congregation which are the candlesticks.

this is my understanding of Chapter 1. looking to hear your views.

 

[Wormwood]

Sorry, I have to get to bed. I don't have time to respond currently. I will try to catch up as time permits.

 

[101G]

Sorry, I have to get to bed. I don't have time to respond currently. I will try to catch up as time permits.

understand, we are in no rush.

 

[Wormwood]

Here are some very brief personal reflections on each verse...
1 - This book contains a fuller revealing of Jesus. It is not focused on predicting future events, but helping believers see the reality of Christ superimposed on their current (often difficult) situation. The word "signified" here indicates that this message was communicated through signs and symbols. Thus, we should expect the book to be rich in metaphor and symbolism. A wooden, literal approach to this book is a mistake in my opinion.
2 - The author is claiming to be an eyewitness of these things.
3 - This is a crucial verse. Not only are we blessed by reading and hearing the words of this book, but there is the call to "Keep what is written in it." If this is primarily a book about predicting the future, this would seem like a strange call. However, it is a book that reveals Jesus Christ and summons believers to respond to the reality of Christ through faithful endurance in their present hardship. Thus the book is primarily a call to respond presently to the reality of Christ and not to create timelines and predictive charts.
4 - This letter is directed to 7, first century churches. Thus, if our interpretation would not have made sense to them, then we are likely not interpreting it correctly.
5 - Jesus is declared to be the "faithful witness." Throughout the book there is a call to suffer faithfully. Jesus is the example and proof that those who endure will be conquerors over this present evil age.
6 - The hope of the Christian faith is the bodily return of Jesus. We endure today because we know our Master returns soon.
7 - For many, the return of Christ will be a terrible day...yet those who are faithful have nothing to fear. Even so, let it be.
8 - Jesus and God both declare to be the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. The divinity of Christ is unmistakable in this book.
9 - John is a partner in the tribulation. The tribulation is not a future event, but the present reality of Christians who are soujourners in a foreign and often hostile land. John reveals himself as simply one of us...with the same struggles and hopes as we have.
10 - John was worshipping on Sunday!
11 - Jesus likely scares the life out of John as his voice "like a trumpet" blasts behind him. John is to communicate this message to the churches of his day.
12 - Jesus stands in the midst of the "7 lamp stands" (which we learn are the churches). Jesus is not a far off deity. He is "in the midst" of the churches..he is present when we gather and worship in a very real way. "He knows"...which we will see later.
13 - Jesus wears the garb of a High Priest.
14 - His hair represents his omniscience (a reference to the Ancient of Days in Daniel). His eyes penetrate to see the reality of who we are.
15 - His feet are refined through fire..he has walked through the trials we are in. His voice (another reference to God) thunders like a waterfall.
16 - Jesus holds his messengers (some think angels, but perhaps this refers to the preacher/pastor of these churches who convey this message). His mouth brings forth a sword of judgment. Those who do not heed the words of Christ and listen to his messengers will be struck down by those words.
17 - Another reference to the divinity of Christ. John is overwhelmed by the presence of Christ and Jesus declares himself of be the First and Last.
18 - Jesus authority comes from his resurrection and those who suffer under the fear of death need only to look to him and not be afraid.
19 - John is again instructed to write what he sees. As this comes directly from God.
20 - Jesus interprets some of the symbols revealed thus far...stars = angels and lamp stands = churches. We should expect these images (and numbers) to continue to be symbolic in nature.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, thanks for the post. I agree with most, but, not to argue, #8 is not the Lord Jesus God the the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, which is only ONE PERSON, or maybe you can explain your view on this. not to argue but your view. the reason why I asked, is not the Revelation fully about Jesus Christ. if the lord Jesus have the same title as God is not then the Revelation is of God.

 

[101G]

I guess we wait on n2thelight to introduce the churches.

 

[Wormwood]

101G,

Yes, in verse 8, the "Alpha and Omega" is a description the "Lord God" (God the Father) uses of himself as well as the phrase "the one who was, and is and is to come" (see vs. 4).
Jesus uses these same phrases in self-descriptions elsewhere in this same revelation. Jesus declares himself of be the "Alpha and Omega" in Rev. 21:6 and Rev. 22:13. Jesus echos the "one who was and is and is to come" with his self-description as being the "first and last, the living one." This echos YHWH's self-descriptions in Isaiah. See Isaiah 41:4, 44:6 and 48:12.
In my opinion, these views (as well as the descriptions of Jesus that mirror the "Ancient of Days" in Daniel) would have been unmistakable to first century readers. For Jesus to be described and use self-descriptions that are exact mirror's of YHWH's words to describe his timeless nature is a very clear and obvious declaration of divinity. Moreover, we also see John attempt to worship an angel at which he is rebuked. However, Jesus is worshipped in this Revelation and no such rebukes are issued.
As for my view on the nature of God, I believe in the Trinity. There is only one God that consists of three persons...Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[101G]

101G,

Yes, in verse 8, the "Alpha and Omega" is a description the "Lord God" (God the Father) uses of himself as well as the phrase "the one who was, and is and is to come" (see vs. 4).
Jesus uses these same phrases in self-descriptions elsewhere in this same revelation. Jesus declares himself of be the "Alpha and Omega" in Rev. 21:6 and Rev. 22:13. Jesus echos the "one who was and is and is to come" with his self-description as being the "first and last, the living one." This echos YHWH's self-descriptions in Isaiah. See Isaiah 41:4, 44:6 and 48:12.
In my opinion, these views (as well as the descriptions of Jesus that mirror the "Ancient of Days" in Daniel) would have been unmistakable to first century readers. For Jesus to be described and use self-descriptions that are exact mirror's of YHWH's words to describe his timeless nature is a very clear and obvious declaration of divinity. Moreover, we also see John attempt to worship an angel at which he is rebuked. However, Jesus is worshipped in this Revelation and no such rebukes are issued.
As for my view on the nature of God, I believe in the Trinity. There is only one God that consists of three persons...Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

GINOLJC, to all. to Wormwood. first I thank my Lord and Saviour for your response. second, I respect your opinion, but consider this. maybe, just maybe your opinion could have been obtain on faulty teaching. listen, you said, "In my opinion, these views (as well as the descriptions of Jesus that mirror the "Ancient of Days" in Daniel) would have been unmistakable to first century readers. For Jesus to be described and use self-descriptions that are exact mirror's of YHWH's words to describe his timeless nature is a very clear and obvious declaration of divinity". now Just think for a moment, "the "first and last, the living one." Isaiah said in the verse quoting the LORD, "I" am the First. now just think Wormwood how many person is "I". only one right. now as you say the Lord Jesus mirror's YHWH. is not the mirror the IMAGE and not the source, meaning not the same. and if a image, and not the source then there is no deity, because the image is not the source. see ythe point. 2nd. "I" being singular, and your doctrine claim that the father is not the son, how can there be two first? only one can be "first". 3rd. you said, "his timeless nature is a very clear and obvious declaration of divinity". consider this, 1 Timothy 6:15 & 16 "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen". now think about this Wormwood, if the the Lord Jesus is the "ONLY" one with immortality and separate from the one you call the Father, where do that leave the one whom you call the Father and the Holy Spirit?. consider that please. no argument, but just consider what i have said. you said that the Lord Jesus mirror YHWH. a mirror is not the original, think about it, ok. don't try to answer, just think about it ok. thanks in Christ Jesus.

 

[101G]

to Wormwood, that NAME "YHWH". again, no argument, but consider this. YHWH what is called the tetragrammaton, Greek meaning 4 letters. this (Name) is suppose to come from what the Lord told Moses on the mountain I AM THAT I AM, or I AM sent you. I AM or in the Hebrew, H1961 הָיָה hayah notice it's a VERB, and not a NOUN. problem,
H1961 הָיָה hayah (haw-yaw) v.
1. to exist.
2. to be or become.
3. to come into being, i.e. to happen, to occur (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary).

here is the first problem, verbs do not signify personal names, nouns do.
second, I AM is "what" God is (a verb) vs "Who" God is in name. let see this clearly. if I would ask you "what" is the first woman name is, most would say "Eve", and you would be in ERROR. here's why, I ask "WHAT" is the first woman name. her name is Adam as to what she is. see I asked "what" is her name. what she is, is a Adam, scripture, Genesis 5:1 & 2 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created" see, the woman is an Adam, that's "WHAT" she is. now if I would have asked "WHO" is the name of the first woman. the correct answer, "Eve". because "Eve" is WHO she is vs WHAT she is. see the difference in what she is vs who she is. understand, Moses ask God "what" is your name, not "who" are you in name. see the difference?. I AM is "WHAT" God is. almighty, King, Saviour, Redeemer ect.... etc....ect... these titles are what he is, but not his personal name. scripture, Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I". take note, Isaiah is after Exodus. why is God say that his people "shall" future tense KNOW his name. don't they already know his name, NO. the reason why is that he would PERSONALLY, (show up in person), and give us his PERSONAL NAME, Yeshua/Jesus. John 17:6a "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world". and who manifested that name? 1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory".

now digest that, and we will see how we got those incorrect names like JEHOVAH, and YAHWEH

 

[101G]

to Wormwood, the creation of the names, JEHOVAH, and YAHWEH. again no argument, but under consideration. The word "JEHOVAH" was formed by merging the three vowels (e, o, and a) into the Romanized (Latinized) four letter version JHVH to get,. JeHoVaH. and the word "YAHWEH" was formed by merging the vowels (a, and e), into the four letter version YHWH (to get, YaHWeH). these name are "formed", made up by man. This was a more recent invention. so we have the English, and the Hebrew form of God's supposed unpronounced name. here is the mistake. they, (the translator), added vowels to the four letter consonant, to make up a name to pronounce. because the, suppose name was lost, and was forbidden to pronounce. anytime someone add or take away from God word, they put the noose around their own necks. we don't need to add or take away, listen, Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I". John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins". here clearly the same statement, "I am he".
Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins". confirming scripture, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you". can't get any plainer than that

 

[101G]

LETTERS OF WARNING & ENCOURAGEMENT TO THE 7 CHURCHES (1-3)

GINOLJC, to all. back to the OP. chapter 1 have been reviewed pretty good. now chapter #2. I agree with Wormwood on the churches. a WARNING, and that warning I believe is a warning of the danger of Syncretism. and like wise encouragement. but I would like to especially bring to our attention for our edification, the fact that it is the Lord Jesus who Identifies himself as the Holy Spirit. remember this is a REVELATION of Jesus the Christ (1:1). in each letter the Lord Jesus gives a description of who he is right at the beginning of each letter. and at the end of each letter he identifies who he is also. listen, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches". wait, is this not the Lord Jesus who is speaking to the churches?, yes. the Spirit, whom many calls the Father is none other that the Lord Jesus in his glorified state. Ephesians 4:4 "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling" now if there is one Spirit, which is true, then the Lord Jesus is that Spirit. and God is a "Spirit".

 

[Wormwood]

"The Lord is a man of war; the Lord is his name."

and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”

I don't want to derail this topic by debating against Sabellianism. I just want to mention that dozens of times YHWH is declared to be the "name" of God...not merely an attribute. I'd be happy to discuss this privately if you like, but I do not know of any Jewish writing that suggests YHWH was not universally recognized by the Jewish people as The God of Israel's name. The Jews often linked names based on attributes of the individual...consider Jacob, Israel, Esau, Peter, and even Jesus. Therefore it is not unusual to think that God's self-disclosed "name" would be based in his nature and attributes.

See also Is. 47:4, 48:2, 51:15, 54:5; Jer. 10:16, 31:35, 33:2, 50:34, 51:19; Amos 4:13, 5:8, 9:6; Hos. 12:5

 

[101G]

I don't want to derail this topic by debating against Sabellianism

no need to I'm not a Sabellnest. I'm a diversity oneness, big difference.

I just want to mention that dozens of times YHWH is declared to be the "name" of God...not merely an attribute.

so then, none of the OT people really knew God personal name, except for those who witness God manifestation in human flesh, not an appearance, witness by the gospel writers, and his disciples, and a few others.

I read your scriptures, notice you push this title, "The LORD of hosts is his name". please take notice who the LORD of host is the Lord Jesus. please read Isaiah chapter 6:1-7. then read John 12:41. but go back to verse 37 in order to get the whole context.

 

[Wormwood]

Again, let's discuss this privately if you'd like to discuss this further so as not to divert this topic.

 

[101G]

Again, let's discuss this privately if you'd like to discuss this further so as not to divert this topic.

fine with me

 

[Helen]

We agree 100% with that assessment. may we suggest a starting point after the The preface, (Chapter 1). how about the birth of Christ, chapter 12, and work our way back to the seven churches. interested?.

Hi there 101G
I must say I find these bible studies a bit too brainy for my tiny brain!

But if I was in on this, then you have lost me right there...because I don't believe that Revelation 12 has anything at all to do with the birth of Jesus!!
I believe it typifies the birthing of the sons...Overcomers ( of Rev 2) "to him that Overcometh..." x 7

"For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God."
Creation groans...
but,.... that just my insight on it....