Understanding the 'Little Horn' power of Prophecy in Daniel.

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covenantee

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It seems that you do not listen and cannot see what is fairly plainly written in the scriptures.

I HAVE TRIED TO DISINGAGE FROM YOU, BUT YOU KEEP COMING BACK WITH FALSE ALIGATIONS.

Goodbye.
The Reformers saw it.

Their vision was clearer than yours.
 

Jay Ross

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The Reformers saw it.

Their vision was clearer than yours.

But scripturally you have not proved that.

Therein lies the dilemma that you are faced with, proving that they were right in their understanding.

Nearly 500 years have passed since then, and many scriptural prophecies have been filled that paint a very different picture.

Why do you have such a hatred of the RCC?

Goodbye
 

covenantee

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But scripturally you have not proved that.

Therein lies the dilemma that you are faced with, proving that they were right in their understanding.

Nearly 500 years have passed since then, and many scriptural prophecies have been filled that paint a very different picture.

Why do you have such a hatred of the RCC?

Goodbye
History proves Scripture.

Nothing proves the future.

The Reformers accurately recognized the fulfillments of the associated Daniel 7 prophecies.

Why do you ignore the dogmas of an antichrist?
 
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Jay Ross

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History proves Scripture.

Nothing proves the future.

The Reformers accurately recognized the fulfillments of the associated Daniel 7 prophecies.

Why do you ignore the dogmas of an antichrist?

You are displaying who your actual father is. Do I need to expose who your true father is? I will if you continue this false abuse of other people's beliefs. History only shows the flawed understanding of the reformation fathers.

Goodbye
 

covenantee

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You are displaying who your actual father is. Do I need to expose who your true father is? I will if you continue this false abuse of other people's beliefs. History only shows the flawed understanding of the reformation fathers.

Goodbye
Tell us who my true father is. With Scripture. Don't be shy.

Provide an example of false abuse of other people's beliefs. Be sure to state specifically (if you can) what the belief is, and how I'm abusing it. Be sure to reference post #7. Don't be shy.

History confirms the accuracy of the understanding of the Reformers. Because of their faith, vision, and sacrifice, you are on this forum denigrating them today.

Your denigrations and denials are an abomination of desecration.

Of the Reformation.
 
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Hobie

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As soon as I saw this I knew where you was going notice guys he did not call, Greece, Pagan Greece or Babylon, Pagan Babylon. Of course this is all just not factual, he goes down a rabbit hole of old, known false teaching. Most say, you mut be a RC guy, no, I just understand prophesy.


Knew this was coming. To me its just laughable by now that people are still on this train.
There are many Bible scholars who have gone over it and are in agreement that it is these empires Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome, with the Roman Empire then what arose in Rome after, a entity composed of a religious aspect but a temporal one also. Here is from a main religious site, What are the four beasts in Daniel chapter 7? | GotQuestions.org
'The first of Daniel’s four beasts is “like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle” (Daniel 7:4). As Daniel watches, the wings are torn off the beast, and the creature stands erect like a man and a human mind is given to it. Later, the angel who interprets the dream tells Daniel, “The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth” (verse 17). This first beast is representative of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. Its rise to human-like status reflects Nebuchadnezzar’s deliverance from a beastly existence and his insight into the true nature of God (Daniel 4:34–35).

The second beast in Daniel’s vision is “like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth” (Daniel 7:5). A voice tells the second beast to devour flesh until it is satisfied. This beast represents the Medo-Persian Empire; the raising up of one side of the creature indicates that one of the kingdom’s parts (Persia) would be dominant. The three ribs in the creature’s mouth symbolize nations that were “devoured” by the Medes and the Persians. These three conquered nations are known to be Babylon, Lydia, and Egypt.

The third of the four beasts is “like a leopard,” except it has four bird-like wings on its back and four heads (Daniel 7:6). This beast is given authority to rule. The third beast represents Greece, an empire known for the swiftness of its conquests. The four heads are predictive of the four-way division of the empire following Alexander the Great’s death. Daniel’s vision of the ram and the goat gives further details of the second and third kingdoms (see Daniel 8).

The final beast that Daniel sees rising from the sea is the most dreadful—“terrifying and frightening and very powerful” (Daniel 7:7). This fourth beast has “bronze claws” (verse 19) and “large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left” totally annihilating its prey (verse 7). The fourth beast has ten horns. This creature represents the Roman Empire, a mighty kingdom that indeed crushed all its foes.'....
 

Hobie

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Here is another...

The first beast: the Chaldean or Babylonian Empire​

The lion was symbolic of the kingdom of Babylon and the “man’s heart” was that of its most notable king, Nebuchadnezzar, who is written about considerably in the first four chapters of Daniel.

As The Expositor’s Bible Commentary explains, “The lion symbol was characteristic of Babylon, especially in Nebuchadnezzar’s time, when the Ishtar Gate entrance was adorned on either side with a long procession of yellow lions on blue-glazed brick, fashioned in high relief” (1985, Vol. 7, pp. 85-86).

The eagle’s wings plucked off the lion were symbolic of Nebuchadnezzar’s time of insanity when he was humbled by God to learn that “the Most High rules in the kingdom of men” (Daniel 4:17, 34-37).

Nebuchadnezzar ruled from Babylon to Asia Minor and from the Caspian Sea to Egypt. Biblically, his most notable conquest was that of the nation of Judah, with Daniel being the most famous captive from that nation.

Following his father’s death, Nebuchadnezzar reigned as king of Babylon for 43 years, from 604-561 B.C. (JewishEncyclopedia.com/Nebuchadnezzar). After his death, Babylon continued as a strong empire until 539 B.C., when it was conquered by the second rising power in Daniel’s vision, the Medo-Persian Empire.

The second beast: the Medo-Persian Empire​

Daniel 7:5 says, “And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’”

This beast’s being “raised up on one side” represents the Persians being greater than the Medes in this federated empire. This is made plain to Daniel in a vision two years later when he sees a ram with two horns, one being higher than the other. Daniel is told by the angel Gabriel that the ram represents the kings of Media and Persia (Daniel 8:3, 20).

The three ribs that are devoured represent three empires conquered by Persia’s first great king, Cyrus the Great, and his son, Cambyses II. Cyrus came to power in 558 B.C. and conquered the Lydian Empire (Asia Minor) in 546 and the Chaldean Empire (Babylon) in 539; and Cambyses conquered Egypt in 525 (ibid., p. 86).

The Medo-Persian Empire lasted for 200 years and, under later kings, expanded toward Greece in the west and to India in the east. At one point, the Persian Empire covered parts of three continents: Asia, Africa and Europe. But, like the Chaldean Empire, the Persian Empire finally came to an end. A new beast was rising in the west, and its appointed time had come.

The third beast: the Greco-Macedonian Empire​

Daniel 7:6 says, “After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.”

As with the second beast, the third beast is clearly identified by the angel Gabriel. It was Greece, and the “first king” was Alexander the Great. After his untimely death in 323 B.C., his empire was divided into four smaller kingdoms (Daniel 8:21-22).

The symbol of the leopard with four wings portrays the swiftness of Alexander’s sudden rise and conquest of the Persian Empire from 334-331 B.C. After his death, several years of struggle ensued that resulted in the division of his empire into four kingdoms. The new kingdoms were (1) Greece and Macedon, (2) Thrace and Asia Minor, (3) Middle East-Asia and (4) Egypt-Palestine.

“After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.”The last two were ruled by Seleucus, who began the Seleucid Empire, and Ptolemy, who began the Ptolemaic Empire. These two kingdoms are called the king of North and the king of the South in Daniel 11.

Approximately two centuries later, the fourth beast conquered all of these kingdoms and expanded far beyond the lands conquered by the previous beasts.

Daniel 11 shows that the king of North and the king of the South will revive and play major roles in end-time prophecies.

The fourth beast, dreadful and terrible: the Roman Empire​

Next in Daniel 7:7 we read, “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.”

The devouring teeth of iron and the trampling feet correspond with Nebuchadnezzar’s vision of the fourth kingdom being strong as iron, breaking in pieces and crushing all others (Daniel 2:40-41). When the Roman Empire came to power under the Caesars (44 B.C.) it devoured, broke in pieces and trampled the residue of its enemies with its feet—as was described in Daniel’s vision in Daniel 7.

The fourth beast is quite different from the previous beasts, in that it has 10 horns. Daniel 7:24 says, “The ten horns are ten kings who shall arise from this kingdom.” Historically, these revivals began to rise after the fall of Rome in A.D. 476, with the later ones under a new name: the Holy Roman Empire. (For additional information, see “What Is Babylon?”).

This fourth beast would continue to be revived off and on for over 1,500 years until the end-time 10th revival. The 10th and final revival will be destroyed by Jesus Christ at His second coming (Daniel 7:26-27).

This leads to one other unusual feature of the prophecy of the fourth beast.

The little horn​

Daniel 7:8 says, “I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.”

This little horn represents a powerful religious system that would align with the last seven of the 10 political horns that were to arise after the fall of Rome. This coordination between church and state produced what ultimately became known as the Holy Roman Empire.

In verses 21-22 and 25, this little horn makes war against the saints, speaks pompous words against God, intends to change times and law, and persecutes the saints for a “time and times and half a time” (literally three and a half years, but using the day-for-a-year principle of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, 1,260 years).

Evidence of this persecution can be seen through the centuries, as hundreds and thousands of people in Europe lost their lives...'

And many others although some try to place Antiochus Epiphanes as the 'little horn power', and this cant be as he doesnt fit at the time given. We can go over that more closely...
 

Jay Ross

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@Hobie

The Church of God is not a good source for information on Biblical prophecy.

There are too many inconsistencies in what it presents and, from my understanding, it still hold to what was taught by Armstrong many years ago.

The Church of God still do not see the active Heavenly hosts that are influencing people to manifest their respective dominate characteristics when doing the bidding of the five beasts.

What is being presented by the Church of God as their explanation of the End Time prophecies falls well short contextually with what was original written many ages ago.

Goodbye
 
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Hobie

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So lets take a look at Antiochus Epiphanes as the 'little horn power', and we have to understand that most Bible scholars acknowledge that the first beast is Babylon, so no issue there and the other 3. But then we have the Preterist interpretation which tries to the claim the second and third beast of Daniel 7 as Media and then Persia, with the fourth beast being Greece and the little horn coming out of Greece as Antiochus Epiphanes. This argument, however, falls apart quickly on numerous grounds, including the lack of historical data to warrant that separation of Media and Persia into two successive kingdoms. The majority of Bible scholars through the centuries, agree that interpretation of the fourth world power of Daniel 2 and 7 is Rome, as the Roman Empire. This was early taught by Jewish writers, even including Josephus and later in the early church by Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Eusebius, Aphrahat, Cyril, Chrysostom, Isidore, Sulpicius Severus, Jerome, and Theodoret, etc.. Then by the majority of the Reformation, and post-Reformation scholars and reformers. Beginning in the thirteenth century and onward in the time of the Reformers, they began to see that the 'little horn' power of Daniel 7, coming out of the ten divisions of Rome, was the Papacy.

We also find Bible scholars supporting the interpretation of Daniel 7 as being Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome in Daniel 8 in the interpretation of the ram 'which had two horns'. Its two disproportionate horns are specifically identified as the kings of Media and Persia together 'having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.' Thus, if in Daniel 7 Media-Persia is the second beast, and Greece the third, then the fourth beast in the prophecy, must represent Rome, the great power that arose after Greece. Therefore, the little horn that came from this fourth beast cannot represent Antiochus IV, who arose prior to, and not after, Rome.

If one looks the little horns in Daniel 7 and 8 are the same historical entity.
Both are identified with the same symbol, a 'little horn'.
Both are described as being 'little' but becoming 'great' later on.
Both are described as persecuting powers.
Both have the same people as object of their persecution.
Both are described as blasphemous powers.
Both are described as intelligent.
Both extend to the time of the end.
Both are to be supernaturally destroyed.

The little horn power of Daniel 7 and the littler horn power of Daniel 8 are both clearly the same entity, and because the little horn in Daniel 7 cannot be Antiochus Epiphanes, the little horn in Daniel 8 clearly cant be either.
 
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Hobie

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@Hobie

The Church of God is not a good source for information on Biblical prophecy.

There are too many inconsistencies in what it presents and, from my understanding, it still hold to what was taught by Armstrong many years ago.

The Church of God still do not see the active Heavenly hosts that are influencing people to manifest their respective dominate characteristics when doing the bidding of the five beasts.

What is being presented by the Church of God as their explanation of the End Time prophecies fall well short contextually with what was original written many ages ago.

GoodBye
Well, do you want me to get the others, as this is the view of the majority of the Bible scholars, that much is clear..
 

covenantee

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Well, do you want me to get the others, as this is the view of the majority of the Bible scholars, that much is clear..
In what post do you mention "Church of God"?

I think Bro. Jay is hallucinating again. :laughing:
 

Hobie

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Well here are some so you can see that this is described and detailed step by step in the timeline...

And here is very good one on Antiochus Epiphanes, and why he cant be the 'little horn...

'Let us carefully consider some suggestions that have been made regarding the identity of the little horn in Daniel’s vision:

(1) Religious modernism contends that the little horn was Antiochus Epiphanes (175-164 B.C.), the Syrian rogue who so viciously persecuted the Jews during the interbiblical era (cf. Daniel 8:9-14, 23-27).

Because the prophetical sections of Daniel are so very precise, modernists, rejecting the concept of predictive prophecy, allege that the book of Daniel is the composition of some unknown writer of the second century B.C. Thus, according to this theory, the document addresses the past, not the future. The persecuting little horn is therefore conveniently identified with Antiochus. This position was apparently first set forth by Porphyry, a third-century A.D. philosopher, who sought to discredit the Bible as an inspired revelation.

This theory simply will not work. The fact is, Antiochus lived in the period of Greek supremacy. He was dead a hundred years before the fourth beast (the Roman Empire) came into power—out of which Daniel’s little horn arose.'
 

Jay Ross

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Well, do you want me to get the others, as this is the view of the majority of the Bible scholars, that much is clear..

Having numbers on your side that agree with your understanding does not mean that what you present is right. It just means that that there are many Bible scholars who are just as wrong as you.
 

covenantee

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Having numbers on your side that agree with your understanding does not mean that what you present is right. It just means that that there are many Bible scholars who are just as wrong as you.
Who other than yourself is on your side? :laughing:
 

Hobie

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Having numbers on your side that agree with your understanding does not mean that what you present is right. It just means that that there are many Bible scholars who are just as wrong as you.
Yes, true, but history records what happened exactly in this timeline as the prophecy of Daniel (and Revelation) laid out.. Here is a good description....' let us review what happened during those 1260 years of Papal domination. One writer described this horrible period of the Dark Ages as follows:

“In the sixth century the papacy had become firmly established. Its seat of power was fixed in the imperial city, and the bishop of Rome was declared to be the head over the entire church. Paganism had given place to the papacy. The dragon had given to the beast "his power, and his seat, and great authority." [REVELATION 13:2] And now began the 1260 years of papal oppression foretold in the prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation. [DANIEL 7:25; REVELATION 13:5-7.] Christians were forced to choose, either to yield their integrity and accept the papal ceremonies and worship, or to wear away their lives in dungeons or suffer death by the rack, the fagot, or the headsman's ax.”

“The accession of the Roman Church to power marked the beginning of the Dark Ages. As her power increased, the darkness deepened. Faith was transferred from Christ, the true foundation, to the pope of Rome. Instead of trusting in the Son of God for forgiveness of sins and for eternal salvation, the people looked to the pope, and to the priests and prelates to whom he delegated authority. They were taught that the pope was their earthly mediator, and that none could approach God except through him, and, further, that he stood in the place of God to them, and was therefore to be implicitly obeyed. A deviation from his requirements was sufficient cause for the severest punishment to be visited upon the bodies and souls of the offenders. Thus the minds of the people were turned away from God to fallible, erring, and cruel men, nay more, to the prince of darkness himself, who exercised his power through them.”

1260 Years of Medieval Darkness​

Although the Darkest period of the history of this world was during the 1260 year reign of the medieval Papacy, God raised great dignitaries of faith who proclaimed the Word of God and make it shine in the midst of darkness. Examples of such men of renown are: the Germans Martin Luther and Melanchthon, from Prague: John Huss and Jerome, the Swiss Ulric Zwingli, the Scot John Knox, the Englishmen: John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, Cranmer, Hugh Latimer, John and Charles Wesley, the Huguenots of France. They are such, “Of whom the world was not worthy” (Hebrews 11:38).

The Word of God Banned for 1260 years​

The same Dark Ages period of 1260 years is depicted in the Word of God as 1260 days when the two witnesses prophesied in sackcloth (Revelation 11:3). This was the period when the Word of God, depicted as the two witnesses, the Old and New Testaments was proscribed under penalty of death. “During the greater part of this period, God's witnesses remained in a state of obscurity. The papal power sought to hide from the people the word of truth, and set before them false witnesses to contradict its testimony. When the Word of God was proscribed by religious and secular authority; when its testimony was perverted, and every effort made that men and demons could invent to turn the minds of the people from it; when those who dared proclaim its sacred truths were hunted, betrayed, tortured, buried in dungeon cells, martyred for their faith, or compelled to flee to mountain fastness, and to dens and caves of the earth--then the faithful witnesses prophesied in sackcloth. Yet they continued their testimony throughout the entire period of 1260 years. In the darkest times there were faithful men who loved God's word and were jealous for His honor.”

The Word of God was banned because it reveals the Papacy’s schemes of deception and it reveals their span of temporal power during the Middle Ages. This period is also portrayed as the period 1260 days during which the woman flees into the wilderness. This is a reference to the Christian Church that had been persecuted during that dreadful period of the Dark Ages (Revelation 12:6).

The Inquisition and Galileo Galilei​

The Papacy not only had a problem with the calendar and biblical chronology but also with scientific knowledge, especially the knowledge of the natural world that reveals what Rome tried to suppress: that “the heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork” (Psalms 19:1). The Papacy was furiously suppressing all vestiges of scientific knowledge and wanted to continue to keep the world in ignorance and superstition. Yet they could not stop God’s enlightenment of great minds like Galileo Galilei who had the courage to stand for truth, even when that would cause him to be accused of heresy for daring to think differently to the Papacy. Galileo believed that the earth rotates around the sun, but the Papacy could not tolerate that teaching because their system of mind-enslavement would collapse. They needed to propagate their superstitions emanating from the erroneous belief that the earth is the center of the universe.

It was inconvenient for the Papacy to have astronomers believe that the earth is a 360° degree sphere that moves around the sun. The Papacy was not willing to acknowledge that the center of the universe is the Heavenly Sanctuary where “God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness” (Psalms 47:8). The pope is not the king in the Kingdom of Heaven, neither is he king of the earth. As the Psalmist proclaims: “For God is the King of all the earth…” (Psalms 47:7). God did not create a flat earth, but the Papacy kept people in ignorance and fear deceived millions with such sophism. Yet the Word of God reveals that the earth is a spherical planet:

“It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in” (Isaiah 40:22).

In dreadful expectation of the papacy’s torturous death by burning alive at the stake, Galileo was forced by the Inquisition in 1633 A.D. to recant and sign with his own hand the following retraction: “I abjure, curse, and detest the error and heresy of the motion of the earth.” With indignation the preacher Chiniquy who was rescued from the Catholic clergy said about Galileo: “That learned man had to degrade himself by swearing a lie… Thus the wings of that giant eagle of Rome were clipped by the scissors of the pope. But God would not allow that giant intellect to be entirely strangled by the bloody hands of that implacable enemy of light and truth, the pope.”

God strengthened Galileo, and as he stood up from his humiliating kneeling position, he said: “Eppur si muove”, “But it moves”, meaning that his retraction was not going to prevent the earth from rotating around the sun. Yet, he was found guilty of heresy and was placed under house arrest for the rest of his life.....
 

Hobie

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John Huss​

John Huss was sentenced to a most horrendous death; he was burnt alive at the stake by Roman Catholic Church.

“Being again exhorted to retract, he replied, turning toward the people, "With what face, then, should I behold the heavens? How should I look on those multitudes of men to whom I have preached the pure gospel? No; I esteem their salvation more than this poor body, now appointed unto death." Finally a crown or mitre, on which were painted frightful figures of demons, and bearing the inscription, "The Arch-Heretic," was placed upon his head. "Most joyfully," he said, "will I wear this crown of shame for thy sake, O Lord Jesus, who for me didst wear a crown of thorns."

“He was now delivered up to the secular authorities, and led away to the place of execution. An immense procession followed, hundreds of men at arms, priests and bishops in their costly robes, and the inhabitants of Constance. When he had been fastened to the stake, and all was ready for the fire to be lighted, the martyr was once more exhorted to save himself by renouncing his errors. "What errors," said Huss, "shall I renounce? I know myself guilty of none. I call God to witness that all that I have written or preached has been with the view of rescuing souls from sin and perdition; and, therefore, most joyfully will I confirm with my blood that truth which I have written and preached. When the flames kindled about him, he began to sing, "Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me," and so continued till his voice was silenced forever.”

The Martyr Jerome​

Because of his faith in the Word of God, Jerome, another faithful man was condemned, by the Catholic prelates, to be burnt alive at the stake. On the day of his execution he was pleading with God for mercy as he had previously recanted from his faith because of fear when he beheld Huss’ execution. At the stake Jerome exclaimed: "Of all the sins that I have committed since my youth, none weigh so heavily upon my mind, and cause me such poignant remorse, as that which I committed in this fatal place, when I approved of the iniquitous sentence rendered against Wycliffe, and the holy martyr, John Huss, my master. Yes, I confess it from my heart; and declare with horror that I disgracefully quailed, when, through a dread of death, I condemned their doctrines. I therefore supplicate Almighty God to deign to pardon me my sins, and this one in particular, the most heinous of all." “His last words, uttered as the flames rose about him, were a prayer. "Lord, Almighty Father," he cried, "have pity on me, and pardon me my sins, for thou knowest that I have always loved thy truth." His voice ceased, but his lips continued to move in prayer.”

John Wycliffe​

John Wycliffe in his desire to reach out to the hungry multitudes with the Word of God, made it possible for the first copies of the Word of God to circulate in the English language as he translated it from the Latin version. However, Wycliffe’s daring task was not appreciated by an enraged Papacy that was thirsty for any opponent’s blood. This man of God died a natural death, leaving behind a heritage of faithfulness to the Word of God. “The papists had failed to work their will with Wycliffe during his life, and their hatred could not be satisfied while his body rested quietly in the grave. By the decree of the Council of Constance, more than forty years after his death his bones were exhumed and publicly burned, and the ashes were thrown into a neighboring brook.”

William Tyndale​

Englishman William Tyndale translated the Word of God in the early 16th century. The influence of his translation still remains with us today in the form of the King James Version. This later translation relied heavily upon Tyndale’s work. Tyndale was burned at the stake on 6 October, 1536. The Catholic prelates condemned him to death in the flames after finding him guilty of treason against the Papacy. He was killed for having translated the Word of God from the original Hebrew and Greek into the English language. Of Tyndale it is written that he “was to complete the work of Wycliffe in giving the Word of God to his countrymen.” He was “A diligent student and an earnest seeker for truth, who had received the Gospel from the Greek Testament of Erasmus. He fearlessly preached his convictions, urging that all doctrines be tested by the Scriptures. To the papist claim that the church had given the Word of God, and the church alone could explain it, Tyndale responded, "Do you know who taught the eagles to find their prey? That same God teaches his hungry children to find their Father in his Word. Far from having given us the Scriptures, it is you who have hidden them from us; it is you who burn those who teach them; and if you could, you would burn the Scriptures themselves."

And history has a lot more, but its getting late and I have to prepare for church...