Unlocking Isaiah 14

[Hiddenthings]

There's no adversary of God in Scripture. No Devil that roams seeking souls to devour .

Exactly, if you can show us the arch-enemy of God in the Old Testament, starting with the first five books, I’m more than willing to have that discussion. If you can’t find it there, we can move on to the remaining 34 books to see if your narrative holds up. But if the entire Old Testament offers you nothing to support your claim, then you’re in a difficult position.

 

[Wick Stick]

Exactly, if you can show us the arch-enemy of God in the Old Testament, starting with the first five books, I’m more than willing to have that discussion. If you can’t find it there, we can move on to the remaining 34 books to see if your narrative holds up. But if the entire Old Testament offers you nothing to support your claim, then you’re in a difficult position.

What do you make of this one?

Leviticus 16: 6 And Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering for himself, and shall make atonement for himself and for his house. 7 Then he shall take the two goats and set them before the LORD at the door of the tent of meeting; 8 and Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for Aza'zel. (RSV)

 

[pandaflower]

Exactly, if you can show us the arch-enemy of God in the Old Testament, starting with the first five books, I’m more than willing to have that discussion. If you can’t find it there, we can move on to the remaining 34 books to see if your narrative holds up. But if the entire Old Testament offers you nothing to support your claim, then you’re in a difficult position.

Who destroyed Job's life?

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Aunty Jane did you understand this insight? Especially the significance of the fulfillment of Isaiah 14:1-3? You understand this is unfulfilled prophecy.

I understand that prophesy often has more than one fulfilment .

In Isaiah Chapter 13, Isaiah now looks past the Assyrian’s day into the time of Babylon’s heyday. He speaks of ‘the sound of numerous people, the uproar of kingdoms, of nations gathered together!’ Jehovah is mustering the army of war! It is a dark day for Babylon.

The Medes under Cyrus the great, will destroy Babylon, “the decoration of kingdoms.” She is to become an uninhabited desolation and a haunt of wild creatures “for generation after generation.” (Isa 13:19-20)

The dead in Sheol are stirred to receive the mighty king of Babylon. Maggots become his couch and worms his covering. What a comedown for this ‘shining one, the son of the dawn’! (Isa 14:12) He aspired to elevate his throne, but has become a carcass thrown out, as mere garbage. Babylon will be annihilated. No name, no remnant, no progeny, no posterity, are to remain....

The prophesy was fulfilled when a remnant of Jews returned to their homeland after their release from exile in Babylon.

Isaiah prophesied about the Messiah, and how Jesus was to be a stone of stumbling to them, but he became the foundation cornerstone that Jehovah laid in Zion and upon which He builds his spiritual house in fulfillment of Isa 8:14 and 28:16. Jesus and his apostles quoted from Isaiah’s prophesies but the Israel they spoke about was not natural Israel.....nor was the Jerusalem or Zion, literal geographic locations as Jesus had told the Samaritan woman....

John 4:19-24 ESV....

“The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Do you understand why no geographical location on earth will be needed? The Kingdom of God is located in heaven on a mountain with a temple where God’s elect serve as kings and priests with Christ Jesus. (Rev 20:6). The Christian Faith is no longer a faith in one locality...it is global, and it’s adherents will be found in every nation on earth.

Heb 12:22-23 ESV....
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect”.


There is no longer any need for an earthly Temple or an earthly priesthood, because Jesus came to dismantle the old Jewish system of worship, that foreshadowed this heavenly Temple and priesthood with its typical representations.

Literal Israel as a political nation will never accept Jesus as Messiah...she is too busy defending her territory from foreign invaders....but is using foreign powers to support her bloodshed. If God was with Israel, no power on earth could defeat her. Foreign alliances in Israel’s past led to utter defeat.

You are barking up the wrong tree.....you are concentrating on the wrong “Israel”. ....spiritual Israel is the one Jehovah supports. (Gal 6:16) He has no time or patience left for that wayward fleshly nation, who have never been obedient to him. Once his promise to Abraham was fulfilled, and the Messiah came and offered Israel first places in his kingdom, with only a “remnant” responding.....Jehovah did what Jesus said.....”Your house is abandoned to you.” (Matt 23:37-39) They refused to be ‘gathered under the wing’ of their Messiah....and still do to this day.

Jehovah doesn’t want those who are forced to worship him....it has to be a free willed choice, backed up by sincere works that show who or what we worship.

“Babylon the great” will suffer the same fate as original Babylon....complete annihilation. So figuring out who makes up this “greater Babylon” is vital because, unless you can identify her, you cannot obey God’s command at Rev 18:4-8...

“Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Pay her back as she herself has paid back others, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed. As she glorified herself and lived in luxury, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning, since in her heart she says, ‘I sit as a queen, I am no widow, and mourning I shall never see.’ For this reason her plagues will come in a single day, death and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her.”

 

[Hiddenthings]

Who destroyed Job's life?

The issue Panda is if you don't develop critical reading skills you will always be in the dark on these subjects.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him..."

I'm thinking of Unlocking Job next.

 

[Hiddenthings]

What do you make of this one?

Leviticus 16: 6 And Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering for himself, and shall make atonement for himself and for his house. 7 Then he shall take the two goats and set them before the LORD at the door of the tent of meeting; 8 and Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for Aza'zel. (RSV)

Ah the Goat of Departure! What is your interest?

 

[pandaflower]

The issue Panda is if you don't develop critical reading skills you will always be in the dark on these subjects.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him..."

I'm thinking of Unlocking Job next.

I ask a question and your first thought is to imply I don't possess critical thinking skills.

Fascinating.

You're apparently all about delivering a message here that posted in stark text would get you banned.

I wonder if others here see what you are unpacking?

 

[Hiddenthings]

John 4:19-24 ESV....

“The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Do you understand why no geographical location on earth will be needed? The Kingdom of God is located in heaven on a mountain with a temple where God’s elect serve as kings and priests with Christ Jesus. (Rev 20:6). The Christian Faith is no longer a faith in one locality...it is global, and it’s adherents will be found in every nation on earth.

This is a typical case of taking the Master's word out of context and applying them to support a man-made doctrine.

Jesus here directly critiques the Samaritan system of worship, calling it essentially false. According to 2 Kings 17, the people who had settled in Samaria (after Israel's exile) came from Babylon and surrounding areas. They intermarried with the remaining Israelites and developed a mixed form of religion, worshipping Yahweh alongside pagan gods. See especially 2 Kings 17:32, 33, and 41.

By contrast, Jesus affirms that true salvation comes through the God of Israel. Jesus, as the Savior, is a Jew, and so the salvation he offers is "of the Jews."

This is where you should have placed Isaiah 14:1-3 but you cannot because you are forced down another path!

This idea is echoed in Zechariah’s prophecy (Luke 1:76–77), where John the Baptist is said to prepare the way for the salvation that comes from Israel’s God. Zechariah 8:23 also reinforces this: "In those days ten men from all nations will take hold of the robe of one Jew and say, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'" That “one Jew” ultimately represents Christ himself, God with us (Emmanuel), as foretold in Isaiah 7:14 and fulfilled in Matthew 1:22–23.

this mountain nor "in" Jerusalem

By "Spirit," Jesus means that God is not confined to any physical location or earthly form. He says this in response to the woman’s question in verse 20. By "Truth," He means that salvation must be sought according to God's instructions, not based on human tradition. This answers her statement, "Our fathers worshiped on this mountain." At its core, it's a matter of obedience. If God had commanded worship at the temple in Jerusalem, then that’s where her ancestors should have gone. Instead, they created alternative gods and places of worship, assuming God would accept it (see 1 Kings 12:26–32 and Hosea 10:1–8).

It's not dissimilar to how the JW's have created Heaven Going as a destination for elite believers - it's man made and has no place in the Word of God.

Jane, I know you understand why Jesus didn’t emphasize Jerusalem, or the future Jerusalem, given what the city had become and what was destined to happen to it in AD 68–70.

The key lesson Jesus is teaching, both to the woman and to us, is that while we may have freedom regarding the time and place of worship, the manner of our worship must not be man-made. It must be grounded in truth. Truth is the essential link that connects us mortal and earthly as we are to the spiritual realities of God.

Also, Israel has never (not once) had dominion over its enemies as prophesied in Isa 14:1-3.

They will!

 

[Hiddenthings]

I ask a question and your first thought is to imply I don't possess critical thinking skills.

Based on my observations of what you have written and the questions you have asked.

Fascinating.

Not so, it's truth

You're apparently all about delivering a message here that posted in stark text would get you banned.

I wonder if others here see what you are unpacking?

Critical thinking skills can be developed over time but you need to read the Bible with care - many don't

 

[pandaflower]

Based on my observations of what you have written and the questions you have asked.

Yes,it long ago was obvious.

You are unable to example the capacity for civil discourse with members here.

Not so, it's truth

That answer is not actually responsive to what you excerpted from my reply.

Critical thinking skills can be developed over time but you need to read the Bible with care - many don't

Yes, I think that is obvious.

 

[Hiddenthings]

You are barking up the wrong tree.....you are concentrating on the wrong “Israel”. ....spiritual Israel is the one Jehovah supports. (Gal 6:16) He has no time or patience left for that wayward fleshly nation, who have never been obedient to him. Once his promise to Abraham was fulfilled, and the Messiah came and offered Israel first places in his kingdom, with only a “remnant” responding.....Jehovah did what Jesus said.....”Your house is abandoned to you.” (Matt 23:37-39) They refused to be ‘gathered under the wing’ of their Messiah....and still do to this day.

Jehovah doesn’t want those who are forced to worship him....it has to be a free willed choice, backed up by sincere works that show who or what we worship.

“Babylon the great” will suffer the same fate as original Babylon....complete annihilation. So figuring out who makes up this “greater Babylon” is vital because, unless you can identify her, you cannot obey God’s command at Rev 18:4-8...

“Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Pay her back as she herself has paid back others, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed. As she glorified herself and lived in luxury, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning, since in her heart she says, ‘I sit as a queen, I am no widow, and mourning I shall never see.’ For this reason her plagues will come in a single day, death and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her.”

I was hoping you would engage directly with Isaiah 14:1–3, but instead, you've veered far off course. In the past we already discussed the ignorance Paul warns about in Romans 11, a warning you seem unwilling to heed or understand.

Isaiah 14:2-3 (ESV): And the peoples will take them and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess them in the Lord's land as male and female slaves. They will take captive those who were their captors, and rule over those who oppressed them. When the Lord has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve.

Maybe you could show from the Word of God their future rest?

 

[Hiddenthings]

John 4:19-24 ESV....

“The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Do you understand why no geographical location on earth will be needed? The Kingdom of God is located in heaven on a mountain with a temple where God’s elect serve as kings and priests with Christ Jesus. (Rev 20:6). The Christian Faith is no longer a faith in one locality...it is global, and it’s adherents will be found in every nation on earth.

Jesus' truth and context here was not about future Jerusalem on earth but something far more pressing!


The chiastic structure can still apply to the future Kingdom on earth, whether there is a temple or not, but to twist the Master’s words here and claim that his context is about Israel’s future and the temple is simply incorrect, Jane.

You have a habit of focusing in on JW dogma and not the actual context being shown.

You did it with Isaiah 14, John 4 & Rev 18.

You shouldn't do that.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Yes,it long ago was obvious.

You are unable to example the capacity for civil discourse with members here.

That answer is not actually responsive to what you excerpted from my reply.

Yes, I think that is obvious.

That's fine, Panda. If you have more questions, I encourage you to read the Bible for yourself first, no one will be able to share their oil with you when the Master returns.

 

[pandaflower]

That's fine, Panda. If you have more questions, I encourage you to read the Bible for yourself first, no one will be able to share their oil with you when the Master returns.

This is where your faux intellectualism efforts fail.

You are unable to keep a civil tongue.

You do not talk with people. You talk down to them. Then,because you hold no respect, you inject sarcasm and demean others intellect and understanding.

You are not an ally of the scriptures and God's truth. You are an adversary.

You insist there is no such thing as the Devil,or fallen angels in scripture.

The Bible shows that is untrue. That you insist it isn't there means you choose to ignore reality in the word of God.

Because your agenda here is to promote the heresy that God is evil. And responsible for all that is otherwise attributed to the Satan and fallen angels you insist do not exist.

At your end you shall no nothing of oil.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Let’s see.....now we have to resort to Internet yelling to get our point across.....not an attractive way to discuss anything. @pandaflower perceives your methods in the same way I do. It’s not a discussion when you have to force your views on people.

No matter how bold you make the Scripture.....it’s your interpretation that is way off. Who says that your take on these Scriptures is the correct one....God will not correct anyone who has a closed mind and heart.
The Bible is a book of truth, not a battering ram.

He reveals his truth to a global brotherhood who all believe the same truth, (1 Cor 1:10)......so, who are your brotherhood? I have not seen you post a convincing argument for your interpretation of Scripture in any reply yet. Apparently you believe that we are all stupid. Well, we might be, but we are entitled to believe as our hearts impel us. Jesus never once ran after anyone to force his truth on them. Since God is the one who makes the seed of truth grow, why do you think that is your job? We are just the planters and waterers, but not a single person can come to Christ without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:44; 65)

if you can show us the arch-enemy of God in the Old Testament, starting with the first five books, I’m more than willing to have that discussion. If you can’t find it there, we can move on to the remaining 34 books to see if your narrative holds up. But if the entire Old Testament offers you nothing to support your claim, then you’re in a difficult position.

You keep saying these things over and over as if somehow the penny will drop on your audience.....and they will all be swayed over to your point of view.....it’s not going to happen.....and the desperation just makes you lose credibility.

God’s “adversary” is right there in Genesis 3:15, although the sacred secret was yet to be revealed as to who he was exactly.....but when Messiah came, satan the devil tempted him too.
The “adversary” was again present in heaven amongst the faithful angels when he challenged God about the faith of Job.

What is an “adversary”? 1 Pet 5:8...
“Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world.” (ESV)

When it says “your adversary the devil” is seeking prey....why is this “adversary” intent on causing “suffering”, like a dangerous predator? As creations of a perfect God, why are we suffering at all? Did God create this adversary to make our lives miserable? What is the point of our suffering? Or does the word in Greek, “antidikos” mean something other than ....

1. “opponent
   1. an opponent in a suit of law
   2. an adversary, enemy”.........the same word in Hebrew means....an “accuser” or “opposer”.
      
      “sâṭân, saw-tawn'; from H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch-enemy of good:—adversary, Satan, withstand” (Strongs)
      

 

[Wick Stick]

Ah the Goat of Departure! What is your interest?

You asked for an example of a supernatural Satan in the books of Moses. It was the first reference that came to mind.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Let’s see.....now we have to resort to Internet yelling to get our point across.....not an attractive way to discuss anything. @pandaflower perceives your methods in the same way I do. It’s not a discussion when you have to force your views on people.

Yelling?

No matter how bold you make the Scripture.....it’s your interpretation that is way off. Who says that your take on these Scriptures is the correct one....God will not correct anyone who has a closed mind and heart.
The Bible is a book of truth, not a battering ram.

Battering ram?

He reveals his truth to a global brotherhood who all believe the same truth, (1 Cor 1:10)......so, who are your brotherhood?

Are you a little slow Jane - everyone in this forum knows I'm a Christadelphian! Just like all know you are a JW!

I have not seen you post a convincing argument for your interpretation of Scripture in any reply yet. Apparently you believe that we are all stupid. Well, we might be, but we are entitled to believe as our hearts impel us. Jesus never once ran after anyone to force his truth on them. Since God is the one who makes the seed of truth grow, why do you think that is your job? We are just the planters and waterers, but not a single person can come to Christ without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:44; 65)

Well, Wick and I have discussed openly and calmly Isaiah 14 & Ezek 28 and your evil being is not there.

What this means is you can no longer use those chapters to support your false teaching because the true interpratation has been shown you.

You understand this Jane?

You keep saying these things over and over as if somehow the penny will drop on your audience.....and they will all be swayed over to your point of view.....it’s not going to happen.....and the desperation just makes you lose credibility.

All I need to do is educate and warn Jane, don't you know God gives the increase?

God’s “adversary” is right there in Genesis 3:15, although the sacred secret was yet to be revealed as to who he was exactly.....but when Messiah came, satan the devil tempted him too.

However, I have multiple posts where you refuse to answer a very simple question.

Why did God create an animal that was more cunning (or shrewd) and able to speak, unlike the rest of the animals?

The “adversary” was again present in heaven amongst the faithful angels when he challenged God about the faith of Job.

What is an “adversary”? 1 Pet 5:8...
“Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world.” (ESV)

So Jane, I invite you to identify who Peter had in mind as the false accuser. Show me the context of the passage and demonstrate that it’s referring to a fallen angel.

When it says “your adversary the devil” is seeking prey....why is this “adversary” intent on causing “suffering”, like a dangerous predator?

Correct.

As creations of a perfect God, why are we suffering at all? Did God create this adversary to make our lives miserable? What is the point of our suffering? Or does the word in Greek, “antidikos” mean something other than ....

1. “opponent
   1. an opponent in a suit of law
   2. an adversary, enemy”.........the same word in Hebrew means....an “accuser” or “opposer”.
      
      “sâṭân, saw-tawn'; from H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch-enemy of good:—adversary, Satan, withstand” (Strongs)

Okay, so you understand the meaning of the word so why are you unable to identify the opposer?

If you cannot then say so, if you can then provide the evidence.

No battering ram used in this post.

 

[Hiddenthings]

You asked for an example of a supernatural Satan in the books of Moses. It was the first reference that came to mind.

A literal goat? I need more Wick, sorry

 

[Hiddenthings]

This is where your faux intellectualism efforts fail.

You are unable to keep a civil tongue.

You do not talk with people. You talk down to them. Then,because you hold no respect, you inject sarcasm and demean others intellect and understanding.

You are not an ally of the scriptures and God's truth. You are an adversary.

You insist there is no such thing as the Devil,or fallen angels in scripture.

The Bible shows that is untrue. That you insist it isn't there means you choose to ignore reality in the word of God.

Because your agenda here is to promote the heresy that God is evil. And responsible for all that is otherwise attributed to the Satan and fallen angels you insist do not exist.

At your end you shall no nothing of oil.

Here’s the issue, @Aunty Jane

Panda asked who was responsible for Job’s suffering, and I gave a very clear response backed by evidence.

The question now is, will Panda accept that evidence, or continue to misrepresent Job’s adversary as a fallen angel?

Be honest, what do you think?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Let’s see.....now we have to resort to Internet yelling to get our point across.....not an attractive way to discuss anything.

Also, I responded to your posts respectfully highlighting areas of concern and showing you the correct context to John 4.

Did you misuse the Lords words and force something not intended by him?

You know the Lord spent time with the disciples before ascending and they asked a vital question of him.

"Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"

Jesus responded in Acts 1:7:

“It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.”

A time question came with a time answer.

Jane, if you had spent all that time with the risen Christ and asked that question, what do you think it reveals about the nature of their conversations?

Why have I not once heard you speak to this subject? Not once?