Tong2020 said: ↑
John 6:37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. <--- My take on this is that God gives all men a measure of faith (Romans 12:3)
"All that the Father gives Me..." <---- Does the Father give Him any who He knows will not receive the Gospel? I would say to this scripture that when Christ was raised up, He drew ALL men unto Him as, His work on this earth was finished and, the door was opened to any, all, whomsoever...
John 6:44No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Did Jesus not say that He would draw ALL men unto Him when He be lifted up? God knows those who will follow Him and those who won't so, those, I would think are the ones who will refuse Him till their dying day so...no, God would not send those to Christ.
In other words, concerning coming to Jesus, this is the truth of that matter, that “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him”. That is what He said to the great multitude who followed Him in.Capernaum.<---see above..
That truth even became even clearer in what transpired there after that have Jesus pointing to this to them in the following passage.
John 6:65And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” see above.
It is clear to me that coming to Jesus is not something that any and all man could just do at will.<--- If it is not Gods will that ANY should perish, then it cannot be His will to damn some to Hell at the foundation of the world. That kind of contradicts His character...?
Just wanted to share that to you.
Thank you brother, I do see where you are coming from, just can't agree as, I see it differently.
God Bless
Yes, apparently we read and see the passages differently. There will come a time that will change with us seeing the same. And since presently we see differently, with others seeing as you do and others seeing as I do, that we have such kind of discussions, hoping that we all would come to the truth and be one in the truth, to the glory of our God and Savior.
On John 6:37, you said “
My take on this is that God gives all men a measure of faith (Romans 12:3)“.
With me, I don’t see that in John 6:37. Even in Romans 12:3, Paul was not referring there to each and every man.
You said “All that the Father gives Me..."
<---- Does the Father give Him any who He knows will not receive the Gospel? I would say to this scripture that when Christ was raised up, He drew ALL men unto Him as, His work on this earth was finished and, the door was opened to any, all, whomsoever...”
Well, John 6:37 plainly says “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me,”. Now, in my reading of scriptures and the reality I see, is that not all, that is, each and every man, come to Jesus.
I think you are referring to John 12:32. If the drawing there involves each and every man, that would make each and every man as can come to Jesus, considering what Jesus said in John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him…” and would run against the words of Jesus in John 6:65, “…. no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”.
You said “
If it is not Gods will that ANY should perish, then it cannot be His will to damn some to Hell at the foundation of the world. That kind of contradicts His character...?”
While we read in scriptures concerning God’s desire that any should perish, it is not conclusive to me, that none will. In fact, the truth is that many will perish. And that truth does not at all tell us that He desired to damn them in Hell, not at the foundation of the world nor any time later.
My view is that men will go to hell because of sin, their sins. And whoever will not go to hell and will instead go to heaven is because of God’s grace, that is, salvation. Now grace is not something that depends on anything concerning the man, nor is it something that could be worked on to attain or have as a wage. It is something that God gives according to the counsel of His will.
Tong
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