Was James confused?

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amadeus

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@KBCid

Whether or not you have resolved the dilemma which some people have is in God's hands. You looked at carefully and have set forth what you see... What more can any man do?
 

GodsGrace

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Faith and Works: Paul vs. James
One of the thorniest textual problems any Christian can face is the apparent contradiction between Paul and James. Is justification by faith, as Paul claims, or by works, as James seems to say? This problem actually has a very simple solution.

....Whenever one encounters an apparent contradiction, it's good to keep in mind a basic rule: Always first explore the possibility of a reconciliation between the two. Not all statements that appear to contradict actually do....

...The word "justify" is no different. It has two meanings, not just one. In addition to "absolve, declare free of blame," it can also mean "to demonstrate or prove to be just, right or valid; to show to be well founded." In the case of salvation, the first is the cause; the second is the effect...

...
Which definition did James have in mind? How do we know when he uses the word "justify," that James is not referring to salvation--as Paul clearly is--but rather is pointing to the proof of salvation?

This is remarkably simple to determine. The cause must come before the effect. Salvation must come first, before it can be evidenced in a changed life.
When Paul makes his case for justification by faith, he cites the beginning of Abraham's walk with God in Genesis 15:5-6: "And He took him outside and said, 'Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.' And He said to him, 'So shall your descendants be.' Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness."
The justification James has in mind comes much later in Abraham's life, recorded in Genesis 22:12: "And he said, 'Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.'"
Paul and James are citing two different times in Abraham's life, events separated by 25 years. They can't be referring to the same thing.
The works of Abraham that James mentions were a result of justification which came by faith a quarter of a century earlier. Abraham was not being saved again. Rather, he was showing evidence of his salvation. He was being confirmed in the justification by faith that had already been accomplished years before.
Abraham's faith was no passive, intellectual exercise. He proved his faith to God. The words of the text show this to be true: "Now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me." God witnessed Abraham's faith first-hand, as it were. It was demonstrated. That's why James concludes, "And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, 'And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'"
Faith and Works: Paul vs. James | Stand to Reason
Hi
I have another solution...
First of all there's no problem between Paul and James.
This is a modern "problem".
I can list what the early theologians believed about this...no conflict.
This idea of faith only was unheard of till recently.

Second...
The BEST SOLUTION is to do this:
When unsure about something,
go to JESUS.

HE always knows the truth.
 

GodsGrace

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@KBCid

Whether or not you have resolved the dilemma which some people have is in God's hands. You looked at carefully and have set forth what you see... What more can any man do?
But if what you say is true,
it means we could all just believe whatever we want to.
Is this what you're saying?
 

GodsGrace

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I did not originate this concept but it seems to sum things up pretty well regarding faith.

We are to pitch our tent with the Lord and learn how He pitches His tent with us. Faith is not simply a belief or trust. It is much more than that. And if one is indeed pitching their tent with Yeshua, that person will be living with Him and seek to emulate Him.

And if you emulate someone, the results will show, which is the works or deeds that I believe James is referring to. The outward results that show an emulating of Yeshua in regards to others and to the Father others can see.

If I see a child emulating a super hero from their TV show or a movie, it shows. They will act like that person they are emulating. I will be able to tell they are emulating Super Man or whomever. It will show in the words they use, what they may have on that expresses that character, and what they do during play time with other children.

A member of a "gang" of some sort will try to emulate the the gang and the leader of that gang and show they are affiliated with that gang.

It really is no different regarding a person and the Lord. Others should be able to tell. That is the deeds that flow from that emulating relationship. But they only mean anything if they emulate and glorify the Lord. Efforts done just to make ourselves feel or look good or to show we are better than others, and done with selfish motives.... all wood, hay, and stubble destined to be burned up.
Very well said.

I'd just like to add that I don't think any Christian works for self-glory.
Or, at least, very few. I think most are honest, loving persons and just want to do what they believe Jesus would want of them.

And if they DO boast, well, I think Jesus will be honoring His word and forgiving them for this.
 

GodsGrace

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GodsGrace

(continued from #310)

This doesn't make the body of sin any better. It's still a body of sin. But, it's not allowed to control. Sin is not allowed to reign. But, it is still full of sin.

And, though you may yield your members as instruments of sin, that sin doesn't touch your spirit which has been born again. Note that Paul didn't say you could yield yourself to sin. You could only yield your members to sin. Concerning yourself, you yield to God. Concerning you which have been born again, you cannot sin. (1 John 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So God is making some very stark, and unbelievable to most, distinctions. But He can do that because the Word of God divides between spirit, soul, and body. (Heb. 4:12) "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

(Rom.6:14) "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Sin will not rule over you. Why? Not because you try and keep the law. Not because you don't sin. Because you are under grace. The law can't reach you as you are dead to all that Adam is. And the law has nothing on a dead man. And it is the law which is the strength of sin. (1Cor.15:56) "The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law." You who are born-again by the Spirit of God, the law cannot reach.

I am aware of (1John 1:8) "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." And Paul is not saying that we have no sin. But he is getting to the very divisions of body, soul, and spirit, and showing us how it works with God. He locates it in the body. Yes I know I sin. God says that which is born of Him does not sin. (1 John 3:9) "...for his seed remaineth in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Stranger
Wow Stranger
I'm going to have to put off answering you till tomorrow.
Just saw the "continueds". It's a lot, but I will say very well stated.
GG
 

Helen

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Christians cannot learn that the Law has been abolished and that nothing is required of us except to believe in Jesus.

I agree and disagree...fun isn't it. Not that I have found much fun on the site today. Though the word Fellowship would be a better word to use.
The Christian walk and journey does not mean that it must be all about arguing and defending what each believes is the truth. I believe the Lord want us to also enjoy the journey, and enjoy fellowship with each other 'in Him.'

Anyway, back to your quote.
We obviously see things differently. ( what's new!! )
I being strongly a ' Grace' person...do not usually say that the law has been abolished even though the bible itself DOES say that very thing!!
So we cannot say it is not so. = Ephesians 2:15 " Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace."

Because so many throw a fit and say 'No, No, No, we still must keep all the commandments.' So..because of this, I usually mention instead that Jesus came to fulfil the law...Matt 5:17 " Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
People can usually handle that a bit better.

And I agree with you about the greasy -grace preacher who tell people that they are free now to live how they like.
Which, when we think of it..we ARE ALL free to live how we like! ...but if we do more fool us!
If we choose to do live a life without restraint of The Spirit, then LOVE has not worked in our hearts at all! ✟

Grace sets us free, through the sacrifice of Jesus...that is the legal standing...
...but Love binds us to the Lord...a love-slave, being our choice.
If not, the piper will still have to be paid at the end, when every mans works will be tried by fire on the last day.

This is where I stand. Blessings...H
 
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Truth

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@H.Richard ...I liked the post..brave thing to do that , as some people do get annoyed about the "left v right" of the two men. :)
I have actually done what @amadeus mentioned..I have placed James "on the shelf." To me it contradicts so much of the rest of the other epistles.
In fact, with some of the things I 'hold dear', I can find scripture that can blow my own argument out of the window. ha! But I shelved them for a while.
We know that anyone can find scripture to back up their position.
I once heard a preacher take 30 mins to "make his case" about 'once saved always saved'...he 'proved' it by scriptures from ( Gen-Rev )
Then he took another 30 mins to "make his case", and he 'proved' that God would not save many, even many lazy Christians that have not 'paid the price'. He then told us to ALWAYS filter everything through and by The Holy Spirit..and never worry when some anal Christian declares that he has the 'total truth',and can prove it with scripture...( much like we see in every thread on here!! Two people fighting, using "their" personal cherry picked verses! :D )
So, for me..I shelve what I don't yet understand...and wait for God to give the light upon it and show me.
I enjoyed James and Paul...thanks.



Yes many Doctrines have been established by using a single Verse taken out of context! Like playing with Rattle Snakes LOL !!!
 

amadeus

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But if what you say is true,
it means we could all just believe whatever we want to.
Is this what you're saying?
No, what I am saying is to consider what God is saying to "you", whether "you" is @GodsGrace or @someone else.

We must hear His voice and obey. To hear His voice, must we not be His sheep?

"Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" John 10:25-27

How is that we become sheep if we are not? How is it that we hear His voice if we do not? Is not the Way to walk, by faith?

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom 10:17

So then it comes back to the Word of God. What it really is really is important, is it not?

"What more can any man do?" The more that a man can do is listen to His Voice and then obey what it says to your heart.

"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things." Matt 12:34-35

If we take in more garbage than good things, what is likely to come out of our heart? If we take in more good things, what is likely to come out of our heart?

What is good, but God?

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18
 

bbyrd009

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wow, good stuff, A. We are either oblivious to the pain we cause, or we are sensitive to it, and can acknowledge when we mess up. All in one person
This is a modern "problem".
seems like a lot of it is a misunderstanding @ "justification," which is made into some religious mystery, instead of what we might feel toward one of our own children
 
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bbyrd009

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I'd just like to add that I don't think any Christian works for self-glory.
Or, at least, very few. I think most are honest, loving persons and just want to do what they believe Jesus would want of them.
until they get stressed maybe, sure. I'm both the nicest and the most horrible person you have ever met
 

GodsGrace

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No, what I am saying is to consider what God is saying to "you", whether "you" is @GodsGrace or @someone else.

We must hear His voice and obey. To hear His voice, must we not be His sheep?

"Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" John 10:25-27

How is that we become sheep if we are not? How is it that we hear His voice if we do not? Is not the Way to walk, by faith?

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom 10:17

So then it comes back to the Word of God. What it really is really is important, is it not?

"What more can any man do?" The more that a man can do is listen to His Voice and then obey what it says to your heart.

"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things." Matt 12:34-35

If we take in more garbage than good things, what is likely to come out of our heart? If we take in more good things, what is likely to come out of our heart?

What is good, but God?

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18
Agreed.
It sounded like you were saying something different.
 
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Stranger

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Wow Stranger
I'm going to have to put off answering you till tomorrow.
Just saw the "continueds". It's a lot, but I will say very well stated.
GG

I know it is a lot...sorry. But, I can't explain such an important question any other way. It is important to me to do that.

You don't have to agree with it all. Just think on it.

Stranger
 
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GodsGrace

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I know it is a lot...sorry. But, I can't explain such an important question any other way. It is important to me to do that.

You don't have to agree with it all. Just think on it.

Stranger
Haven't read it yet.
It's late here...too tired.
Looks like deep stuff...
 

GodsGrace

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wow, good stuff, A. We are either oblivious to the pain we cause, or we are sensitive to it, and can acknowledge when we mess up. All in one person
seems like a lot of it is a misunderstanding @ "justification," which is made into some religious mystery, instead of what we might feel toward one of our own children
???
 

GodsGrace

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I agree and disagree...fun isn't it. Not that I have found much fun on the site today. Though the word Fellowship would be a better word to use.
The Christian walk and journey does not mean that it must be all about arguing and defending what each believes is the truth. I believe the Lord want us to also enjoy the journey, and enjoy fellowship with each other 'in Him.'

Anyway, back to your quote.
We obviously see things differently. ( what's new!! )
I being strongly a ' Grace' person...do not usually say that the law has been abolished even though the bible itself DOES say that very thing!!
So we cannot say it is not so. = Ephesians 2:15 " Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace."

Because so many throw a fit and say 'No, No, No, we still must keep all the commandments.' So..because of this, I usually mention instead that Jesus came to fulfil the law...Matt 5:17 " Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
People can usually handle that a bit better.

And I agree with you about the greasy -grace preacher who tell people that they are free now to live how they like.
Which, when we think of it..we ARE ALL free to live how we like! ...but if we do more fool us!
If we choose to do live a life without restraint of The Spirit, then LOVE has not worked in our hearts at all! ✟

Grace sets us free, through the sacrifice of Jesus...that is the legal standing...
...but Love binds us to the Lord...a love-slave, being our choice.
If not, the piper will still have to be paid at the end, when every mans works will be tried by fire on the last day.

This is where I stand. Blessings...H
BG
Tomorrow...
 

bbyrd009

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We all get stressed.
hmm
oh, like if you were to see your kid doing whatever, something altruistic, you could say that he justified himself--well, he did whether you saw it or not lol, never mind that part--you would also feel justified as a parent. That is all justification really is--or enough to hang your hat on anyway cuz ya, there is the philosophical answer too lol
 

KBCid

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@KBCid

Whether or not you have resolved the dilemma which some people have is in God's hands. You looked at carefully and have set forth what you see... What more can any man do?

a man? nothing. All we can do is be a road sign and point to scripture
 

KBCid

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Hi
I have another solution...
First of all there's no problem between Paul and James.
This is a modern "problem".
I can list what the early theologians believed about this...no conflict.
This idea of faith only was unheard of till recently.
Second...
The BEST SOLUTION is to do this:
When unsure about something,
go to JESUS.
HE always knows the truth.

As my post pointed out there is no problem between Paul and James. The problem is the interpretations and you are quite correct it is a more recent doctrine. The problem with the best solution is that people already think they are going to Jesus. People like Jim Jones.