Was Jesus a spirit being before coming to earth as a human?

[Robert Gwin]

I understand, but the problem with that and wordsmithing all of scripture, is it assumes that men have providence over God's word rather than God. In this case it assumes that the Greeks accurately have a word for a God that they have just learned of.

Even so, even if we allow them the benefit of the doubt, the rest of scripture shows Jesus as One with the Father. And yes, even One can be wordsmithed to mean two...but it is not advisable.

Actually Scott, no Greek penned the Bible, and they knew God well. The Bible interprets itself sir, and it never contradicts, so determining meaning many times is going to be understood through multiple passages. For instance you stated Jesus was one with the Father, two beings clearly mentioned, yet one, so that could mean they are the same being, or it could mean something else, correct? By looking at other passages we can actually discern the meaning. First mention of two being one is found at Gen 2:24, that is easily understood, husband and wife, still separate, yet a family unit now.

The passage you referred to is found at Jn 10:30 which states very simply I and the Father are one. yet he pointed out just a few verses later they were one in unity v38. This was the account where he was about to be stoned for "making himself God/god", in which he openly stated that he said he was God's son. v36. A bit later in chapter 17, he makes it even clearer by sayingJohn 17:20-23) . . .“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one,. . .

So the oneness of the Father and Jesus is an easily understood doctrinal teaching of the Bible Scott.

 

[David in NJ]

No. That's not what I'm saying. God sent His Son. That wouldn't be possible if He didn't have a Son to send. And that Son wasn't created. First born of creation can equally mean they source and beginning of all creation because He is the Creator. There is more scripture to substantiate that than the JW twist.

Good Morning

The phrase 'first born' of all creation is referring to His Resurrection.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Since the LORD had to come to earth, in a body prepared by Himself and for Himself (HE is before all things and in Him all things exist),
His Physical Body was pre-ordained for the purpose of His Sacrifice = the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world.

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ” Hebrews ch10

 

[post]

I said, Jesus never claimed to be the king of the Jews. You replied:

What's the Bible reference? How is that Jesus claiming to be the king of Israel?


What's the Bible reference? Do you mean Matthew 4:10 (Then Jesus said to him, “Get behind me, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve him only.’”)? What has that got to do with your claim that Jesus declared himself to be king of Israel?


What's the Bible reference? I can't find that. Who is saying it? Again, what's your point?


What's the Bible reference? How does Jesus in the future being the king of God's kingdom, ruling over all mankind and all angels, imply that Jesus claimed to be the king of Israel?


What's the Bible reference? I don't recall reading about that.


What's the Bible reference? I can't find that quote in the Bible.


What's the Bible reference? Where does Jesus claim to be the king of Israel?

I'm not going to believe anyone who writes sentences that are supposedly in the Bible but they never give the verse references so that I can easily verify what they are claiming. They could easily be making it up and/or deliberately trying to deceive. Beware the wolves in sheep's clothing!

Acts 17:11-12
(11) Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
(12) Many of them therefore believed;

They wouldn't have believed if they couldn't confirm it from the Scriptures.

If you don't recognize the scriptural references I am making without having me give them all to you one by one then you have no business thinking to 'debate' doctrine.

You need to go read the Book

 

[keithr]

If you don't recognize the scriptural references I am making without having me give them all to you one by one then you have no business thinking to 'debate' doctrine.

You need to go read the Book

Such arrogance! If you can't back up your statements with Bible verse references, then you should not make those statements.

You stated:

angels and men: do not worship me it is evil​

Where does it say that in the Bible? And again, what's the point you're trying to make?

You stated:

Satan: asks Jesus for permission to test Peter​

Where does it say that in the Bible?

You stated:

"tell them I AM has sent you"​

Where does it say that in the Bible?

Deuteronomy 4:2 (WEB):

You shall not add to the word which I command you, neither shall you take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of Yahweh your God which I command you.​

Proverbs 30:6 (WEB):

Don’t you add to his words, lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar.​

 

[post]

Acts 14, Revelation 22, Luke 22, Exodus 3

@keithr

 

[ScottA]

Actually Scott, no Greek penned the Bible, and they knew God well. The Bible interprets itself sir, and it never contradicts, so determining meaning many times is going to be understood through multiple passages. For instance you stated Jesus was one with the Father, two beings clearly mentioned, yet one, so that could mean they are the same being, or it could mean something else, correct? By looking at other passages we can actually discern the meaning. First mention of two being one is found at Gen 2:24, that is easily understood, husband and wife, still separate, yet a family unit now.

The passage you referred to is found at Jn 10:30 which states very simply I and the Father are one. yet he pointed out just a few verses later they were one in unity v38. This was the account where he was about to be stoned for "making himself God/god", in which he openly stated that he said he was God's son. v36. A bit later in chapter 17, he makes it even clearer by sayingJohn 17:20-23) . . .“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one,. . .

So the oneness of the Father and Jesus is an easily understood doctrinal teaching of the Bible Scott.

You are still expressing your own understanding. And where did you come up with the word "union" in place of "One" in John 17?

Nonetheless, you are referring to the words and your understanding of language that has been confused by God, and your confusion is apparent: "God is One God." And unless you are willing to call Jesus a liar for repeatedly referring to Himself as "I am", then you need to take Him at His word...even if you can't wrap your head around the concept.

You don't have to completely understand, and you don't have to have all the answers. But relying on your own understanding, confused language, and your own conjecture, is not working. It has you making the contradictions you say should never be, even taking a wild guess that it "could all mean something else." You should not be telling anyone anything--you should be asking questions. In humility.

 

[post]

You stated:
angels and men: do not worship me it is evil
Where does it say that in the Bible? And again, what's the point you're trying to make?

additionally:

Genesis 3, 4, 6, 15, 19, Exodus 16, 20, 23, 30, 34; Deuteronomy 6, Isaiah 42, 43, 48, Matthew 4, 6, 10, 18, Mark 4, Luke 4, 24, John 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 17, 20, 21, Acts 2, 4, 10, Romans 1, 11, 12, 1 Corinthians 3, 6, Hebrews 1

and many more...

and the point is the central point of Christianity: Christ is God; in HIM we put our trust

 

[Truther]

Certainly there is a problem of people making claims about God and the scriptures that are not of God at all. But you cannot categorically dismiss all spiritual claims--when the scriptures themselves say the opposite.

"Do not quench the Spirit." 1 Thessalonians 5:19​

Indeed, it would be better to allow those spirits that have no power over the Holy Spirit, than not to allow the Holy Spirit. Again, such "takes away the key of knowledge."

Has God not allowed the wheat as well as the tares? Why then would you impose what is contrary.

Again, there is 1 interpretation and many applications, NOT many interpretations.

 

[Truther]

Is the Father in the Son or the Son in Father or the Holy Spirit in the Son or the Father in the Holy Spirit???
OR
are THEY Echad Elohim???

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” 15Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:
‘The Lord God of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you.
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’
Exodus 3:15

When the Father is in someone, they are "in Him".

Because the Father was inside Jesus, he was one with the Father or "in the Father".

God is around most people, but not in them, therefore they are not "in God".

 

[Truther]

I think that since Jehovah knows the finale from the beginning that He knew that He would send His son Jesus the second Adam to the earth as flesh and blood. I fully agree everything was made through and for Jesus Col 1:16

Amen, not only that, God physically knew the man Christ Jesus at the creation of man.

This is the "us" God was speaking to in Genesis.

Adam was made in the likeness of the man Christ Jesus, who was there with God as a man and blueprint for Adam.

 

[David in NJ]

Amen, not only that, God physically knew the man Christ Jesus at the creation of man.

This is the "us" God was speaking to in Genesis.

Adam was made in the likeness of the man Christ Jesus, who was there with God as a man and blueprint for Adam.

There was no man in the Let Us = Spirit Father, Spirit Son & Holy Spirit

 

[Truther]

There was no man in the Let Us = Spirit Father, Spirit Son & Holy Spirit

Was man created in the likeness of a Spirit or was Adam made in the likeness of the last Adam(Jesus)....

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

 

[farouk]

There was no man in the Let Us = Spirit Father, Spirit Son & Holy Spirit

@David in NJ John 3.16 gloriously shows that the One Who was given was God already.

 

[ScottA]

Again, there is 1 interpretation and many applications, NOT many interpretations.

This is true.

 

[David in NJ]

Was man created in the likeness of a Spirit or was Adam made in the likeness of the last Adam(Jesus)....

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

YES Friend and AMEN - When the Spirit Father Spirit Son Holy Spirit created man they had the WHOLE PICTURE in view BEFORE it was even spoken.

 

[ScottA]

Was man created in the likeness of a Spirit or was Adam made in the likeness of the last Adam(Jesus)....

All things are made in the likeness of that which is spirit, made manifest.

 

[Truther]

All things are made in the likeness of that which is spirit, made manifest.

What is the Spirit likeness?

Was Adam a Spirit?

 

[ScottA]

What is the Spirit likeness?

Was Adam a Spirit?

1. Just as it has been made manifest.
2. No, you misunderstand. Adam is not made manifest of Adam, but is made manifest as the first revelation of Jesus Christ (He is the Beginning and the End). Which does not mean he was Jesus either, but rather made in His likeness as a revelation of all things, the culmination of which ends in the Judgement, the last will and testament, as it is written.

 

[David in NJ]

1. Just as it has been made manifest.
2. No, you misunderstand. Adam is not made manifest of Adam, but is made manifest as the first revelation of Jesus Christ (He is the Beginning and the End). Which does not mean he was Jesus either, but rather made in His likeness as a revelation of all things, the culmination of which ends in the Judgement, the last will and testament, as it is written.

It is very straightforward here: Colossians 1:15-18
1.) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
2.) For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
3.) All things were created through Him and for Him.
4.) And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
5.) And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

 

[keithr]

Was man created in the likeness of a Spirit or was Adam made in the likeness of the last Adam(Jesus)....

God is a spirit being (John 4:24), Adam was a man, so clearly there was no physcial likeness at all. I've always understood it to mean that mankind was made to have the same character as God (loving, righteous, just, caring, generous, wise, sense of humour, appreciation of beauty, etc.).

Interestingly it is not until Adam is 130 years old that he has a son, Seth, who is said to be in Adam's image and likeness (same Hebrew words as in Genesis 1:26 - tselem and demuth) - Genesis 5:3 (WEB):

Adam lived one hundred thirty years, and became the father of a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.​

When it talks about making idols with a physical image or likeness, e.g. Exodus 20:4 (KJV):

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:​

that is using different Hebrew words (pecel and temuwnah).

Or Leviticus 26:1

Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image {pecel}, neither shall ye set up [any] image {matstsebah} of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.​

Deuteronomy 27:15

Cursed [be] the man that maketh [any] graven {pecel} or molten image {maccekah}, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth [it] in [a] secret [place].​