Was Mary sinless?

[Mungo]

If you check out the Greek on the internet, Or anywhere, And you will see the word in Lk 1: 28, Is "Charitoo".
Only the catholics say it is Kecharitomene, Every time I see Kecharitomene, It is a catholic website, And the catholics are world famous for twisting the scriptures and the Greek.

Alan, the link I gave you is not a Catholic site. The English translation it gives is the KJV.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Since κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitomene) only exists once in the bible, and apparently doesn't occur at all in the LXX, it seems pretty pointless to quibble over its meaning. We simply don't have enough information to know for sure that it means this or that.

Even if it does mean 100% full of grace, that doesn't mean Mary was sinless because that's not what grace means.

 

[Mungo]

Yes, MT.

Click Interlinear LXX in my signature for free Apostolic Bible Polyglot (pdf format). Also you can click theWord in my signature to download the free bible software that has the ABP as a free module. Nice thing about it you can click on most words and it brings up the Strong's definition in a separate window. Some of the words are not in Strong's though.

LXX - Thanks

The Word look interesting. I've had a quick look. I need new Bible software. I've just upgraded to Windows 7 & the old stuff I have (an old version of Quickverse) doesn't work properly which is really annoying as I paid to get a version of the NAB. Still, I've had a good run with it. Time to move on.

Many thanks for those links.

Since κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitomene) only exists once in the bible, and apparently doesn't occur at all in the LXX, it seems pretty pointless to quibble over its meaning. We simply don't have enough information to know for sure that it means this or that.

Even if it does mean 100% full of grace, that doesn't mean Mary was sinless because that's not what grace means.

"that's not what grace means"


I think that's another area for discussion but not here - at least not by me.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Many thanks for those links.

Here's a link to lots of 3rd party-made modules - http://www.douglashamp.com/theword-books/

If you need help with anything, let me know.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

If you check out the Greek on the internet, Or anywhere, And you will see the word in Lk 1: 28, Is "Charitoo".
Only the catholics say it is Kecharitomene, Every time I see Kecharitomene, It is a catholic website, And the catholics are world famous for twisting the scriptures and the Greek.

Uhh - NO.
Charitoo is the ROOT word. Kecharitomene is a variation of that root word.

All I can say is WOW. What must it be like to have the evidence in front of you and STILL deny??

 

[Episkopos]

I really hope you either understand what I just said - or that you at least pretend to. The only thing about you that I'm completely sure of is that you don't worship the God of Christianity - but an invention of your own - because the Bible tells us that Jesus is GOD and Mary is His Mother:

Mary is the mother of Jesus...not God. Jesus is fully God...from His Father...and fully human...from His mother. The invention is that somehow Mary is more than just a regular human! A cult of the female deity issues from this. All pagan religions have a female deity. Why should anything change?

 

[ChurchAuthority]

Mary is the mother of Jesus...not God. Jesus is fully God...from His Father...and fully human...from His mother. The invention is that somehow Mary is more than just a regular human! A cult of the female deity issues from this. All pagan religions have a female deity. Why should anything change?

The heresy you are espousing was dealt with at the Council of Epehsus in 431. The Heretic Nestorius was making the same claim that you are - that Jesus was not God all the time. The doctrine of the Hypostatic Union was declared at this Council to clarify the fact that Jesus unites to Himself TWO natures and that these two natures cannot be divided. This is a doctrine that most Protestants believe in.

At this same council, Mary was proclaimed "Theotokos" (God Bearer) because she bore GOD in her womb. In His Hypostasis, Jesus is ALWAYS 100% God and 100% Man. That's why, even though He is God, He referred to Himself many times as "Son of Man". Unfortunately for many pseudo-Christians - including many on this forum - they have become confused by this and deny the deity of Christ.

 

[justaname]

NASB
Luke 1:28
28 And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

KJV

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Douay-Rheims

28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Taken from Louw Nida
I Kindness, Harshness (88.66–88.74)

88.66 χαριτόω; χάριςa, ιτος f: to show kindness to someone, with the implication of graciousness on the part of the one showing such kindness—‘to show kindness, to manifest graciousness toward, kindness, graciousness, grace.’
χαριτόω: κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ ‘the Lord is with you, you to whom (the Lord) has shown kindness’ Lk 1:28; ἧς ἐχαρίτωσεν ἡμᾶς ἐν τῷ ἠγαπημένῳ ‘which he has graciously shown us in the one he loves’ Eph 1:6.χάριςa: ἐξῆλθεν παραδοθεὶς τῇ χάριτι τοῦ κυρίου ὑπὸ τῶν ἀδελφῶν ‘he left, being commended by the brothers to the kindness of the Lord’ Ac 15:40.

Taken from Strong's

c. Where Lk. himself is responsible, certain intentions are recognisable. χάρις characterises the message of salvation, or the message as a message of salvation. “Words of grace” is in Lk. 4:22, cf. Ac. 20:24, 32; Col. 4:6, a term for the Gospel, whose content may be gleaned from the context. Mighty works confirm the Gospel, Ac. 14:3. χάρις can also depict the Spirit-filled man. Stephen is πλήρης χάριτος καὶ δυνάμεως, Ac. 6:8. The overruling of grace may be seen in the spread of the Church, Ac. 11:23, with a play on χαίρω. Beyond the idea of the Church the word may be used generally for the state of grace, cf. προσμένω τῇ χάριτι τοῦ θεοῦ, Ac. 13:43. There is commendation to the grace of God (Ac. 14:26) or the Lord (15:40). Ac. 15:11 sounds Pauline: διὰ τῆς χάριτος κυρίου Ἰησοῦ πιστεύομεν σωθῆναι, though the specific Pauline sense is blunted into a current term in edification. Ac. 18:27 is not very clear: συνεβάλετο (sc. Apollos) πολὺ τοῖς πεπιστευκόσιν διὰ τῆς χάριτος.


e. χαριτόω “to show grace.” “to bless,” is used in the NT only in connection with divine χάρις: χαῖρε κεχαριτωμένη, Lk. 1:28 → 366, 25 ff.; 392, n. 148.168

To further expound in context...
KJV
Luke 1:30

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
D-R

30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.
NASB

30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.

Louw Nida

25.89 χάριςd, ιτος f: a favorable attitude toward someone or something—‘favor, good will.’ ἔχοντες χάριν πρὸς ὅλον τὸν λαόν ‘having the good will of all the people’ or ‘all the people were pleased with them’ Ac 2:47; εὗρες γὰρ χάριν παρὰ τῷ θεῷ ‘for you have found favor with God’ or ‘for God is pleased with you’ Lk 1:30.

and just to give Paul's perspective... in Strong's


2. Paul.
In Paul χάρις is a central concept that most clearly expresses his understanding of the salvation event. It is worth noting that the singular predominates in usage, Naturally the term does not have in every passage the specific sense of Paul’s doctrine of grace. It can means “thanks” in the expression χάρις τῷ θεῷ, R. 6:17; 7:25; 1 C. 15:57; 2 C. 8:16; 9:15. Then as a term for the collection it means “thank-offering,” 1 C. 16:3; 2 C. 8:1ff. 1 C. 10:30 is obscure: “to enjoy with thanks.”

 

[Alanforchrist]

Alan, the link I gave you is not a Catholic site. The English translation it gives is the KJV.

You would say that, Your a catholic, And we all know what catholics are like.
Every other Greek scholar says the word in Lk 1: 28, Is "Charitoo", It's only the catholics who say it is kecharitomene.
But everyone know that catholics are world famous for twisting the scriptures and the Greek.

Since κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitomene) only exists once in the bible, and apparently doesn't occur at all in the LXX, it seems pretty pointless to quibble over its meaning. We simply don't have enough information to know for sure that it means this or that.

Even if it does mean 100% full of grace, that doesn't mean Mary was sinless because that's not what grace means.

The Angel never said Mary was full of grace, That is a catholic lie, The Angel said Mary was highly favoured, And that means she had to be made acceptable to God, And thats because she was a sinner.
May admitted herslef that she was low estate, One Greek meaning for that, Is, "Vile", And Mary ought to know.

Uhh - NO.
Charitoo is the ROOT word. Kecharitomene is a variation of that root word.

All I can say is WOW. What must it be like to have the evidence in front of you and STILL deny??

Catholics have to say that, But that doesn't make it true,
Apart from the catholics, [Who are world famous for twisting the Scriptures and the Greek], No other Greek scholar says anything about kecharitomene, Because it isn't in the original Greek.
PS, I cannot take anything the catholics say, As evidence, Plus I'd rather believe the True Greek.

 

[justaname]

The word "κεχαριτωμένη" in verse 28 is qualified in verse 30 with the word "χάρις"

"χάρις" is defined in Louw Nida as----- a favorable attitude toward someone or something—‘favor, good will.

In the original form
χαριτόω: κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ ‘the Lord is with you, you to whom (the Lord) has shown kindness’ Lk 1:28

Taken from the NASB

28 And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
29 But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was.
30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.

You can see even May was perplexed by the salutation... No wonder we today have difficulty translating the word. The best clue we have again is the qualifying of the word in verse 30.

χάριν παρὰ τῷ θεῷ ‘for you have found favor with God’ or ‘for God is pleased with you’ Lk 1:30.

Favor and grace are somewhat interchangeable as favor and kindness are used to describe grace.


5921 χάρις (charis), ιτος (itos), ἡ (hē): n.fem.; ≡ DBLHebr 2834; Str 5485; TDNT 9.372—1. LN 88.66 kindness, grace (Ac 15:40; Ro 16:24 v.r.); 2. LN 57.103 gift (Ac 24:27; 1Co 16:3); 3. LN 33.350 thanks (1Co 15:57); 4. LN 25.89 good will, favor toward someone (Lk 1:30; Ac 2:47)


5923 χαριτόω (charitoō): vb.; ≡ Str 5487; TDNT 9.372—LN 88.66 show kindness, graciously give, freely give (Eph 1:6); as a passive participle, subst., “one highly favored” (Lk 1:28+)

 

[Mungo]

The word "κεχαριτωμένη" in verse 28 is qualified in verse 30 with the word "χάρις"

"χάρις" is defined in Louw Nida as----- a favorable attitude toward someone or something—‘favor, good will.

In the original form
χαριτόω: κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ ‘the Lord is with you, you to whom (the Lord) has shown kindness’ Lk 1:28

Taken from the NASB

28 And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
29 But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was.
30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.

You can see even May was perplexed by the salutation... No wonder we today have difficulty translating the word. The best clue we have again is the qualifying of the word in verse 30.


χάριν παρὰ τῷ θεῷ ‘for you have found favor with God’ or ‘for God is pleased with you’ Lk 1:30.

Favor and grace are somewhat interchangeable as favor and kindness are used to describe grace.


5921 χάρις (charis), ιτος (itos), ἡ (hē): n.fem.; ≡ DBLHebr 2834; Str 5485; TDNT 9.372—1. LN 88.66 kindness, grace (Ac 15:40; Ro 16:24 v.r.); 2. LN 57.103 gift (Ac 24:27; 1Co 16:3); 3. LN 33.350 thanks (1Co 15:57); 4. LN 25.89 good will, favor toward someone (Lk 1:30; Ac 2:47)


5923 χαριτόω (charitoō): vb.; ≡ Str 5487; TDNT 9.372—LN 88.66 show kindness, graciously give, freely give (Eph 1:6); as a passive participle, subst., “one highly favored” (Lk 1:28+)

We don't need to go to verse 30 to see why Mary was perplexed by the salutation and why she pondered what this could mean. The answer is in verse 28 itself.

"The Lord is with you"

What would this have meant to a 1st Century Jew? To which others did God, or an angel of God, say God would be with them?

God to Jacob when he made him the covenant leader “Behold I am with you and will keep you wherever you go” (Gen 28:15)

God to Moses at the burning bush when he called him to lead Israel from slavery “But I will be with you” (Ex 3:12)

God to Joshua before he led them into battle to take the promised land “as I was with Moses so I will be with you” (Josh 1:5)

Angel to Gideon when he called him to defend Israel against a foreign invasion “The Lord is with you, you mighty man of valour” (Jud 6:12)

God to David (via Nathan) when he made him head of an everlasting kingdom “I have been with you wherever you went” (2 Sam 7:9)

God the Jeremiah when he called him to be a prophet “I am with you to deliver you, says the Lord” (Jer 1:8)

Mary is being told she is there among the great leaders of Israel, people whom God called to have an important mission in the salvation of Israel. Mary is being called to stand with the great leaders of Israel who had many trials and had to make many sacrifices. No wonder Mary was “greatly troubled” and “pondered what sort of greeting this might be”.

Then in Lk 1:30 Gabriel says “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God”. The “Do not be afraid” is reassuring her that God would be with her to help and protect her. But what does the “you have found favour” with God signify? Again let’s look at some others in Israel’s history who found favour with God. It brings to mind others who were specifically chosen by God for an important role or office.

Noah, who was chosen to renew the human race after the flood. “But Noah found favour in the eyes of the Lord” (Gen 6:8)

Abraham, who was the start the covenant people found favour with God “My Lord, if I have found favour in your sight…..So they said, “Do as you have said.” (Gen 18:3-5)

Moses also found favour with God when he acted as mediator of the covenant people at Sinai –see Ex 33:12-17.

Mary was specially chosen to have a particular and unique mission in salvation, and with people like Noah, Abraham, and Moses to be the instruments of a new beginning for humanity. She was more important than Abraham or Moses of David because she was to bring the Saviour of the whole world into the world. She is unique.

 

[justaname]

We don't need to go to verse 30 to see why Mary was perplexed by the salutation and why she pondered what this could mean. The answer is in verse 28 itself.

"The Lord is with you"

What would this have meant to a 1st Century Jew? To which others did God, or an angel of God, say God would be with them?

God to Jacob when he made him the covenant leader “Behold I am with you and will keep you wherever you go” (Gen 28:15)

God to Moses at the burning bush when he called him to lead Israel from slavery “But I will be with you” (Ex 3:12)

God to Joshua before he led them into battle to take the promised land “as I was with Moses so I will be with you” (Josh 1:5)

Angel to Gideon when he called him to defend Israel against a foreign invasion “The Lord is with you, you mighty man of valour” (Jud 6:12)

God to David (via Nathan) when he made him head of an everlasting kingdom “I have been with you wherever you went” (2 Sam 7:9)

God the Jeremiah when he called him to be a prophet “I am with you to deliver you, says the Lord” (Jer 1:8)

Mary is being told she is there among the great leaders of Israel, people whom God called to have an important mission in the salvation of Israel. Mary is being called to stand with the great leaders of Israel who had many trials and had to make many sacrifices. No wonder Mary was “greatly troubled” and “pondered what sort of greeting this might be”.

Then in Lk 1:30 Gabriel says “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God”. The “Do not be afraid” is reassuring her that God would be with her to help and protect her. But what does the “you have found favour” with God signify? Again let’s look at some others in Israel’s history who found favour with God. It brings to mind others who were specifically chosen by God for an important role or office.

Noah, who was chosen to renew the human race after the flood. “But Noah found favour in the eyes of the Lord” (Gen 6:8)

Abraham, who was the start the covenant people found favour with God “My Lord, if I have found favour in your sight…..So they said, “Do as you have said.” (Gen 18:3-5)

Moses also found favour with God when he acted as mediator of the covenant people at Sinai –see Ex 33:12-17.

Mary was specially chosen to have a particular and unique mission in salvation, and with people like Noah, Abraham, and Moses to be the instruments of a new beginning for humanity. She was more important than Abraham or Moses of David because she was to bring the Saviour of the whole world into the world. She is unique.

I do not deny the uniqueness of Mary...

Yet you can read the text for yourself...

28 And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
29 But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was.
30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.

The words are similar and one "χάρις" can help us understand the other "κεχαριτωμένη"
Gabriel helps us here, why not take the help grammatically?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Mary was specially chosen to have a particular and unique mission in salvation, and with people like Noah, Abraham, and Moses to be the instruments of a new beginning for humanity. She was more important than Abraham or Moses of David because she was to bring the Saviour of the whole world into the world. She is unique.

She is unique. Most blessed of all women born, IMO. Astonishing faith. Highly favored and full of grace? Absolutely. Sinless? No. Christ's sinlessness was inherited from his father; all inheritances passed through the father, not the mother.

 

[Mungo]

I do not deny the uniqueness of Mary...

Yet you can read the text for yourself...

28 And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
29 But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was.
30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.

The text is:
28 And he came to her and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!"
29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be.
30 And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God.

It’s important to recognise that Mary was troubled/perplexed because of what the Angel said to her. And that was before verse 30.

Contrast that with verse 12
“And Zechariah was troubled when he saw him, and fear fell upon him.”

Luke is making a point that it was the angel’s words that troubled Mary not the sight of the Angel. Luke is making the point that the words he uses are very important.

You would say that, Your a catholic, And we all know what catholics are like.


PS, I cannot take anything the catholics say,

That's bigotry.

 

[justaname]

The text is:
28 And he came to her and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!"
29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be.
30 And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God.

It’s important to recognise that Mary was troubled/perplexed because of what the Angel said to her. And that was before verse 30.

Contrast that with verse 12
“And Zechariah was troubled when he saw him, and fear fell upon him.”

Luke is making a point that it was the angel’s words that troubled Mary not the sight of the Angel. Luke is making the point that the words he uses are very important.



That's bigotry.

The text is "χαριτόω: κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ"

The rest is translation.

Shalom!

 

[ChurchAuthority]

Catholics have to say that, But that doesn't make it true,
Apart from the catholics, [Who are world famous for twisting the Scriptures and the Greek], No other Greek scholar says anything about kecharitomene, Because it isn't in the original Greek.
PS, I cannot take anything the catholics say, As evidence, Plus I'd rather believe the True Greek.

Catholics are "world famouse for twisting the Scriptures and the Greek"??
Spoken like a true anti-Catholic who lives in denial.

PS - PROVE to me that kecharitomene is not in the original Greek text of Luke 1:28.

 

[Foreigner]

That's bigotry.

-- No, that's common sense.
When Catholics choose to base beliefs on things either not found in scripture or in contradiction to scripture, those who choose to listen to them will likely regret it later.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

The word "κεχαριτωμένη" in verse 28 is qualified in verse 30 with the word "χάρις"

"χάρις" is defined in Louw Nida as----- a favorable attitude toward someone or something—‘favor, good will.

In the original form
χαριτόω: κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ ‘the Lord is with you, you to whom (the Lord) has shown kindness’ Lk 1:28

Taken from the NASB

28 And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
29 But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was.
30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.

You can see even May was perplexed by the salutation... No wonder we today have difficulty translating the word. The best clue we have again is the qualifying of the word in verse 30.

χάριν παρὰ τῷ θεῷ ‘for you have found favor with God’ or ‘for God is pleased with you’ Lk 1:30.

Favor and grace are somewhat interchangeable as favor and kindness are used to describe grace.

5921 χάρις (charis), ιτος (itos), ἡ (hē): n.fem.; ≡ DBLHebr 2834; Str 5485; TDNT 9.372—1. LN 88.66 kindness, grace (Ac 15:40; Ro 16:24 v.r.); 2. LN 57.103 gift (Ac 24:27; 1Co 16:3); 3. LN 33.350 thanks (1Co 15:57); 4. LN 25.89 good will, favor toward someone (Lk 1:30; Ac 2:47)

5923 χαριτόω (charitoō): vb.; ≡ Str 5487; TDNT 9.372—LN 88.66 show kindness, graciously give, freely give (Eph 1:6); as a passive participle, subst., “one highly favored” (Lk 1:28+)

WOW.
Look at all of the Scriptural and linguistic acrobatics you need to oerform to arrive at your erroneous point.

 

[Mungo]

The text is "χαριτόω: κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ"

The rest is translation.

Shalom!

.. and interpretation.

Shalom!

 

[Foreigner]

WOW.
Look at all of the Scriptural and linguistic acrobatics you need to oerform to arrive at your erroneous point.

-- You call it erroneous.
Perhaps if you showed how or where. Otherwise....