Was Mary sinless?

[101G]

2 Raeneske

Most people get caught up on the LAW, Genesis 6:9 "These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. Job also Job 1:1 "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil". upright can be translated as Just.

but where there is no LAW sin is not imputed. because of the knowledge. guess why the tree in the Garden, was called the tree of knowledge of good and Evil. but the Garden hold many mystery, especially Adam and Eve Childrens. but that's another topic in it self.

 

[Raeneske]

2 Raeneske

Most people get caught up on the LAW, Genesis 6:9 "These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. Job also Job 1:1 "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil". upright can be translated as Just.

but where there is no LAW sin is not imputed. because of the knowledge. guess why the tree in the Garden, was called the tree of knowledge of good and Evil. but the Garden hold many mystery, especially Adam and Eve Childrens. but that's another topic in it self.

Which is altogether more proof the Law always existed, the eternal moral law, which even the Angels of God keep, Psalm 103:20. Why? Because sin cannot be imputed where there is no law, for sin is the transgression of that law.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

I have not the slightest what you are trying to say...


Jesus was God made flesh. Flesh in every single way as us. Only difference is, He resisted temptation %100 of the time. Never failed, our Saviour.

Mungo, no, Jesus was the Word made flesh.... He was not the Father who art in heaven whom Jesus prayed to while he was fulfilling the mission that his Father gave him.. he was the Word of God in the image of sinful flesh yet was made in the image of the invisible God being the very nature of God because the Father and His Word are one in the same. You can not separate a man from his word, they are identical.
The Father was the one who forsook His Word/Jesus/The Son on the cross for our sakes, He allowed His Word of the old covenant to be nailed to the cross and die so that He could release us from the old added ordinances and resurrect Christ the living Word of our new covenant in his original condition being the very Word of God whom the Father uses to uphold and create all things.
Every man is known by... his word. The Word was our example of what the Spirit Father would be like if He were made flesh, for Jesus was our Emanuel being God with us for Jesus is God's Word.
Rom 8:3
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
KJV
John 1:14-18
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
KJV

 

[Ruth]

how can people like us be saved?
6 We are all infected and impure with sin.
When we display our righteous deeds,
they are nothing but filthy rags.
Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall,
and our sins sweep us away like the wind.

Isaiah 64

 

[domenic]

This is funny. Most believe because Adam and Eve ate a fruit, God said, "Okay, because Adam and Eve ate a fruit I told them not to, everybody born is going to die."
The reason I say this is funny, is the same people who believe that, also say, God is a God of love."
He is a God of love...so I know he didn't say that.

What Adam and Eve did had to be something they passed on that was physical. If God does not want humans to know right from wrong, why did he give us the Bible?

I know, somebody is going to come back with, " We Inherited disobedience from Adams, and Eve. They did not die from eating the so called fruit…they died because after they ate it, God gave them a judgment of death. If they had to die from a judgment, Does that mean we also die from a judgment?..I don't think so. A God of love would not do that, and he is a God of love. Adam and Eve passed off something physical to us. If we were dying from a judgment, why would God send Jesus to save us?

 

[Mungo]

Mungo, no, Jesus was the Word made flesh.... He was not the Father who art in heaven whom Jesus prayed to while he was fulfilling the mission that his Father gave him.. he was the Word of God in the image of sinful flesh yet was made in the image of the invisible God being the very nature of God because the Father and His Word are one in the same. You can not separate a man from his word, they are identical.
The Father was the one who forsook His Word/Jesus/The Son on the cross for our sakes, He allowed His Word of the old covenant to be nailed to the cross and die so that He could release us from the old added ordinances and resurrect Christ the living Word of our new covenant in his original condition being the very Word of God whom the Father uses to uphold and create all things.
Every man is known by... his word. The Word was our example of what the Spirit Father would be like if He were made flesh, for Jesus was our Emanuel being God with us for Jesus is God's Word.
Rom 8:3
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
KJV
John 1:14-18
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
KJV

I think you are addressing the wrong person. Your quote was from Raeneske not myself.

 

[HammerStone]

Mary is the theotokos.

The dogma of a sinless Mary was brought about to support other dogma and was not done so in any ecumenical council, therefore I reject it as does much of the church. This is a doctrine of Roman Catholicism that no others support including Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism. She was not somehow exempt from original sin as the Catholic dogma maintains.

 

[Ruth]

This is funny. Most believe because Adam and Eve ate a fruit, God said, "Okay, because Adam and Eve ate a fruit I told them not to, everybody born is going to die."
The reason I say this is funny, is the same people who believe that, also say, God is a God of love."
He is a God of love...so I know he didn't say that.

What Adam and Eve did had to be something they passed on that was physical. If God does not want humans to know right from wrong, why did he give us the Bible?

I know, somebody is going to come back with, " We Inherited disobedience from Adams, and Eve. They did not die from eating the so called fruit…they died because after they ate it, God gave them a judgment of death. If they had to die from a judgment, Does that mean we also die from a judgment?..I don't think so. A God of love would not do that, and he is a God of love. Adam and Eve passed off something physical to us. If we were dying from a judgment, why would God send Jesus to save us?

how can people like us be saved? (Jesus)
6 We are all infected and impure with sin.
When we display our righteous deeds,
they are nothing but filthy rags.
Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall,
and our sins sweep us away like the wind.

Isaiah 64

 

[101G]

Romans 9:9 "For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that call?"

Just as dust is in the world, so was sin. one walk in the world, one feet get dusty. question, "is there anything wrong with the feet?", No. did not God make the feet?. yes. not that there anything wrong with the feet, but where the feet walk.

 

[Raeneske]

Mungo, no, Jesus was the Word made flesh.... He was not the Father who art in heaven whom Jesus prayed to while he was fulfilling the mission that his Father gave him.. he was the Word of God in the image of sinful flesh yet was made in the image of the invisible God being the very nature of God because the Father and His Word are one in the same. You can not separate a man from his word, they are identical.
The Father was the one who forsook His Word/Jesus/The Son on the cross for our sakes, He allowed His Word of the old covenant to be nailed to the cross and die so that He could release us from the old added ordinances and resurrect Christ the living Word of our new covenant in his original condition being the very Word of God whom the Father uses to uphold and create all things.
Every man is known by... his word. The Word was our example of what the Spirit Father would be like if He were made flesh, for Jesus was our Emanuel being God with us for Jesus is God's Word.
Rom 8:3
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
KJV
John 1:14-18
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
KJV

Lol, did you just call me Mungo?

And I agree, Jesus is not God the Father. But Jesus is in fact God.

This is funny. Most believe because Adam and Eve ate a fruit, God said, "Okay, because Adam and Eve ate a fruit I told them not to, everybody born is going to die."
The reason I say this is funny, is the same people who believe that, also say, God is a God of love."
He is a God of love...so I know he didn't say that.

What Adam and Eve did had to be something they passed on that was physical. If God does not want humans to know right from wrong, why did he give us the Bible?

I know, somebody is going to come back with, " We Inherited disobedience from Adams, and Eve. They did not die from eating the so called fruit…they died because after they ate it, God gave them a judgment of death. If they had to die from a judgment, Does that mean we also die from a judgment?..I don't think so. A God of love would not do that, and he is a God of love. Adam and Eve passed off something physical to us. If we were dying from a judgment, why would God send Jesus to save us?

Everyone that sins will die, they will bear their own iniquity. Death was passed onto every human being, because Adam and Eve cannot touch the tree of life, and neither can we. We are doomed to death, except by the Living Waters, the Bread of Life.

God does want us to know right from wrong. But THIS is the WRONG WAY (meaning to sin) to learn about right and wrong. And that is why we must go through trials and suffer. We need to burn all the dross off, and walk in obediance, that we can be admitted into the eternal city. We can know something is wrong simply by God saying "Don't do it".

Just rambling.

 

[Selene]

Mary is the theotokos.

The dogma of a sinless Mary was brought about to support other dogma and was not done so in any ecumenical council, therefore I reject it as does much of the church. This is a doctrine of Roman Catholicism that no others support including Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism. She was not somehow exempt from original sin as the Catholic dogma maintains.

There are some Eastern Orthodox Churches that do accept the Immaculate Conception. According to the weblink below:

The Immaculate Conception also came to be reverenced in Orthodox countries, especially during the height of the Baroque period in the Kyivan Church and also by Greeks, as Father John Meyendorff has shown.

The Ukrainian Saint Demetrius of Rostov, for example, belonged to an Orthodox Brotherhood of the Immaculate Conception (for which he was called before an Orthodox Synod to give account).

St Demetrius and others of his day prayed the rosary, recited the Hail Mary at the turn of each hour, the Little Office of the Virgin Mary and even the Psalter of the Mother of God composed by St Bonaventure. His “Easternized” prayer in honour of the Sorrows of the Mother of God survives in many Orthodox prayerbooks today as the “Tale of the Five Prayers!”

http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/articles/catholic/holymother.htm

 

[williemac]

Mary is the theotokos.

The dogma of a sinless Mary was brought about to support other dogma and was not done so in any ecumenical council, therefore I reject it as does much of the church. This is a doctrine of Roman Catholicism that no others support including Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism. She was not somehow exempt from original sin as the Catholic dogma maintains.

And yet people by the millions still pray to her. I doubt that she can hear any of them. But even if she can, how is it that she could possibly hear the prayers of so many at once, not being omnipresent, or omniscient? I know she is not interested in taking God's place. It is the ignorance of man that puts her there. To all of them: Let her rest. God is waiting to hear from you, Himself.

I know the argument, that it is ok. to ask another to pray for you. However, I can ask another person on this planet. I cannot pray to another person on this planet. People are not talking person to person with Mary and the Saints. They are actually praying to them. So while we are on the subject of correcting false ideas concerning Mary, why stop at immaculate conception? Do we only clean one corner of the room? just saying....

 

[aspen]

Mary is part of the body of Christ - she like all redeemed members of the body has been perfected by Christ. I do not believe the body of Christ is divided by death. I love Mary, as I love all Christians.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

What it says it, they did not sin after the similitude of Adams transgression. What it also says in other areas is that all have sinned, and all come short of the glory of God. By looking in many areas in Scripture, we can conclude that all sin. When given the chance to life, to live, all will choose sin. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. The only exception is Jesus Christ.

Since you seem fond of Luther, let's see what HE had to say on the matter:



"She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.
- Martin Luther's Little Prayer Book, 1522.


"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin"
- Martin Luther's Sermon "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527.

And yet people by the millions still pray to her. I doubt that she can hear any of them. But even if she can, how is it that she could possibly hear the prayers of so many at once, not being omnipresent, or omniscient? I know she is not interested in taking God's place. It is the ignorance of man that puts her there. To all of them: Let her rest. God is waiting to hear from you, Himself.

I know the argument, that it is ok. to ask another to pray for you. However, I can ask another person on this planet. I cannot pray to another person on this planet. People are not talking person to person with Mary and the Saints. They are actually praying to them. So while we are on the subject of correcting false ideas concerning Mary, why stop at immaculate conception? Do we only clean one corner of the room? just saying....

So, let me get this straight. You believe that God can heal the sick give sight to the blind, raise the dead - but He CAN'T allow Mary to hear multiple petitions for prayer??

REALLY?? What a weak God you've carved ou for yourself . . .

The Greek word is kecharitomene that Luke used in his Gospel (v.1:28), which is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. Thus it translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” By comparison, the word used in Ephesians 1:6 and applied to the saints is charis.

The Fathers of the Eastern Church (Orthodox), who shared the same tradition with the Catholic Church until they split in 1054 A.D., refer to Mary as "the All-Holy" (Panagia) and the Church believes she "remained free of every personal sin her whole life long” by the grace of God.
Protestants often use Romans 3 to try to disprove the idea of Mary’s sinlessness. They point to the notion that Mary MUST have been in need of a Savior because of the words she spoke in the presences of her relative, Elizabeth:
Luke 1:46-47:
“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior.”

This is one place where the Catholic Church agrees with the Protestant. We believe that Mary – as do all of us – needed a Savior. However, because of the special role she was about to play in salvation history, the Church teaches that Mary was saved from the time of her conception to be the fitting and proper vessel to carry God. One ancient analogy speaks of a puddle of mud that all believers fall into. God rescues us out of the mud, whereas, Mary was rescued before she was able to fall in.

In Romans 3:10, 23, the idea that Paul was speaking literally about everybody is sometimes pointed to by those who twist the Scriptures to their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).

Paul says: “There is no one righteous, not even one; For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.”
Is that right? How about babies or toddlers below the age of reason? What about those who are mentally challenged and may not have full use of their intellect and will? What about Jesus? In this passage, St. Paul is actually quoting Psalm 14, where it says, "The fool (the evil) says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt...there is none that does good.’” Later in the same Psalm, we hear that “God is present in the company of the “righteous.”

St. Paul was using inclusive language, as was the Psalmist. This would be similar to somebody saying that “everybody in town” came to the celebration. The mass of mankind is what is being referred to in these passages – not every individual human being ever born.

 

[justaname]

Since you seem fond of Luther, let's see what HE had to say on the matter:



"She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.
- Martin Luther's Little Prayer Book, 1522.


"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin"
- Martin Luther's Sermon "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527.




So, let me get this straight. You believe that God can heal the sick give sight to the blind, raise the dead - but He CAN'T allow Mary to hear multiple petitions for prayer??

REALLY?? What a weak God you've carved ou for yourself . . .


The Greek word is kecharitomene that Luke used in his Gospel (v.1:28), which is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. Thus it translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” By comparison, the word used in Ephesians 1:6 and applied to the saints is charis.

The Fathers of the Eastern Church (Orthodox), who shared the same tradition with the Catholic Church until they split in 1054 A.D., refer to Mary as "the All-Holy" (Panagia) and the Church believes she "remained free of every personal sin her whole life long” by the grace of God.
Protestants often use Romans 3 to try to disprove the idea of Mary’s sinlessness. They point to the notion that Mary MUST have been in need of a Savior because of the words she spoke in the presences of her relative, Elizabeth:
Luke 1:46-47:
“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior.”

This is one place where the Catholic Church agrees with the Protestant. We believe that Mary – as do all of us – needed a Savior. However, because of the special role she was about to play in salvation history, the Church teaches that Mary was saved from the time of her conception to be the fitting and proper vessel to carry God. One ancient analogy speaks of a puddle of mud that all believers fall into. God rescues us out of the mud, whereas, Mary was rescued before she was able to fall in.

In Romans 3:10, 23, the idea that Paul was speaking literally about everybody is sometimes pointed to by those who twist the Scriptures to their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).

Paul says: “There is no one righteous, not even one; For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.”
Is that right? How about babies or toddlers below the age of reason? What about those who are mentally challenged and may not have full use of their intellect and will? What about Jesus? In this passage, St. Paul is actually quoting Psalm 14, where it says, "The fool (the evil) says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt...there is none that does good.’” Later in the same Psalm, we hear that “God is present in the company of the “righteous.”

St. Paul was using inclusive language, as was the Psalmist. This would be similar to somebody saying that “everybody in town” came to the celebration. The mass of mankind is what is being referred to in these passages – not every individual human being ever born.

Psalm 14:1-3 or 53:1-3

1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
2 The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

Take note here of the portion in blue.

I will say I didn't comment on the issue of a sinless Mary, and do not intend to.
I love my holy mother, and I am not the judge of her sin. Indeed in her faith she is found blameless before God.

 

[Alanforchrist]

Of cause she wasn't, What a silly question.
The Bible says "ALL Have sinned", "ALL" includes Mary, She admitted herself that she needed a saviour.

 

[Foreigner]

Exactly.

Mary was human. The only person to walk the earth completely sinless was Jesus Christ.

 

[Mungo]

Exactly.

Mary was human. The only person to walk the earth completely sinless was Jesus Christ.

Jesus was human

And according to Allanforchrist Jesus must have sinned since he want's to take 'ALL have sinned' absolutely literally.

 

[101G]

All is not inclusive, unless qualified

 

[Alanforchrist]

All is not inclusive, unless qualified

"ALL" Is qualified, "ALL" Means everyone.