Was Mary sinless?
- Thread starter trivialtheology
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
That is a question that can't be yes, or no. It matters not what any religion says, there is no way of knowing if Mary sinned, or not. She like the rest of the human family had sin from Adam and Eve.
If any want to stick a sin on something, try this: Jesus said, "Do not pray to me, but to the Father through me." Was Mary higher than Jesus?
If we are not to pray to Jesus, why do some religions pray to Mary, who was human? Please don't reply, "Well she's in Heaven now so it's okay." Jesus is in Heaven, and we still cant pray to him. Praying to Mary is a BIG SIN....along with all those other dead people some religions pray to.
If any want to stick a sin on something, try this: Jesus said, "Do not pray to me, but to the Father through me." Was Mary higher than Jesus?
If we are not to pray to Jesus, why do some religions pray to Mary, who was human? Please don't reply, "Well she's in Heaven now so it's okay." Jesus is in Heaven, and we still cant pray to him. Praying to Mary is a BIG SIN....along with all those other dead people some religions pray to.
Mary, the mother of Jesus, was not sinless. In accordance with the legal requirements of the Mosaic Law, after the birth of Jesus for purification (Lev 12:2, 8), she was required to offer a sacrifice at the temple in Jerusalem, which she did of either "a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons."(Luke 2:22-24)
At 1 Kings 8, Solomon said that "there is no man that does not sin".(1 Kings 8:46) In addition, the apostle Paul showed that all born of Adam as their "father" are born into sin.(Rom 5:12) Thus, Mary was an imperfect, though loyal young woman that Jehovah God used in order to bring Jesus to birth, transferring Jesus life-force from heaven to the womb of Mary, so that Jesus could be born as a real human, equal to Adam before Adam's defection from God.(1 Cor 15:45)
At 1 Kings 8, Solomon said that "there is no man that does not sin".(1 Kings 8:46) In addition, the apostle Paul showed that all born of Adam as their "father" are born into sin.(Rom 5:12) Thus, Mary was an imperfect, though loyal young woman that Jehovah God used in order to bring Jesus to birth, transferring Jesus life-force from heaven to the womb of Mary, so that Jesus could be born as a real human, equal to Adam before Adam's defection from God.(1 Cor 15:45)
101G
Well-Known Member
"ALL" Is qualified, "ALL" Means everyone.
if I said, all trees have vines, is this true?. unless I qualify the trees.
lets teach by scripture, and use the apostle Paul epistle to the Romans. Romans 1:7 "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ".
is the Apostle speaking to EVERYONE in Rome No, who did he qualify?. those beloved of God, called to be saints. again is he speaking to EVERY beloved in Rome?. NO. but he is speaking to the saints, beloved of God, in Rome.
same as the trees, do all trees have vines, NO.
the same as have all sinned, NO. we know that our Lord didn't sin. ......but the sentence of death was passed onto EVERYONE, even into them who had not sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression.
let me make myself clear,
all sin is not unto death, so is every sin unto Death?.
if I said, all trees have vines, is this true?. unless I qualify the trees.
lets teach by scripture, and use the apostle Paul epistle to the Romans. Romans 1:7 "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ".
is the Apostle speaking to EVERYONE in Rome No, who did he qualify?. those beloved of God, called to be saints. again is he speaking to EVERY beloved in Rome?. NO. but he is speaking to the saints, beloved of God, in Rome.
same as the trees, do all trees have vines, NO.
the same as have all sinned, NO. we know that our Lord didn't sin. ......but the sentence of death was passed onto EVERYONE, even into them who had not sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression.
let me make myself clear,
all sin is not unto death, so is every sin unto Death?.
A few verses before writing “all have sinned” Paul writes:
"no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one." (Rom 3:10-11)
Are to believe that Paul mean that lierally?
Does no-one seek for God? Do you not seek for God?
No one does any good? Do you do no good?
"no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one." (Rom 3:10-11)
Are to believe that Paul mean that lierally?
Does no-one seek for God? Do you not seek for God?
No one does any good? Do you do no good?
101G
Well-Known Member
"no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one." (Rom 3:10-11)
even the apostle himself said, Philippians 3:12 "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus". and yet the same apostle said he had all understanding, notice the word all. listen, 1 Corinthians 13:2 "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing".
and as for good. as long as we're in these fleshly bodies, and live in this world we will come in contact with sinfulness. this is proved out in our Lord who had no sin, Matthew 19:17 "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments".
but it is qualified.
even the apostle himself said, Philippians 3:12 "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus". and yet the same apostle said he had all understanding, notice the word all. listen, 1 Corinthians 13:2 "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing".
and as for good. as long as we're in these fleshly bodies, and live in this world we will come in contact with sinfulness. this is proved out in our Lord who had no sin, Matthew 19:17 "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments".
but it is qualified.
You didn't read post #54 - did you?Alanforchrist said:
PRECISELY my point.Mungo said:
WRONG.Raeneske said:
The sinful nature that is passed onto us,is concupiscence, which is the desire to sin.
HOWEVER, an infant cannot sin because it does not have contro of its faculties.
Jesus HIMSELF states that there are some who don't sin. In John, 9:41, He was rebuking the Parisees because of their insistence that the blind man whom Jesus cured was blind because of his sin.
Jesus told them:
If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.
101G
Well-Known Member
2 ChurchAuthority, GINOLJC
The sinful nature that is passed onto us,is concupiscence, which is the desire to sin.
HOWEVER, an infant cannot sin because it does not have control of its faculties.
Jesus HIMSELF states that there are some who don't sin. In John, 9:41, He was rebuking the Parisees because of their insistence that the blind man whom Jesus cured was blind because of his sin.
Jesus told them: If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.
good scripture, and interesting. the blind man that was healed was no infant. and the no sin of him or his parent had nothing to do with their sin, but to the glory of God to heal. but what's interesting is what you said about concupiscence being passed on. as you said, "The sinful nature that is passed onto us, is concupiscence, which is the desire to sin". my question is this. "how do one have a desire without knowledge?". the reason for my interest is this. for "Eve", desire was to be wise, but based on what you said?. who passed it on to her?. for there was a tree of knowledge of good and evil, but it was forbidden. so how is the desire passed on?. it have to be taught. for by the Law is the knowledge of sin. once one come into the knowledge, then it is sin. I agree with you on concupiscence, its true, but the bases of it??????. scripture, Romans 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me".
alright, Eve was deceive. Question, if Eve would have never obtain knowledge, even if it was a lie, would she have sinned?. she never desired before?. as for as we know. so it have to be introduce. in her case by the serpent. grant it, the devil is evil. but not sin. but he can cause us to sin, but is it with or without knowledge
I would like to hear your point of view on this.
The sinful nature that is passed onto us,is concupiscence, which is the desire to sin.
HOWEVER, an infant cannot sin because it does not have control of its faculties.
Jesus HIMSELF states that there are some who don't sin. In John, 9:41, He was rebuking the Parisees because of their insistence that the blind man whom Jesus cured was blind because of his sin.
Jesus told them: If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.
good scripture, and interesting. the blind man that was healed was no infant. and the no sin of him or his parent had nothing to do with their sin, but to the glory of God to heal. but what's interesting is what you said about concupiscence being passed on. as you said, "The sinful nature that is passed onto us, is concupiscence, which is the desire to sin". my question is this. "how do one have a desire without knowledge?". the reason for my interest is this. for "Eve", desire was to be wise, but based on what you said?. who passed it on to her?. for there was a tree of knowledge of good and evil, but it was forbidden. so how is the desire passed on?. it have to be taught. for by the Law is the knowledge of sin. once one come into the knowledge, then it is sin. I agree with you on concupiscence, its true, but the bases of it??????. scripture, Romans 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me".
alright, Eve was deceive. Question, if Eve would have never obtain knowledge, even if it was a lie, would she have sinned?. she never desired before?. as for as we know. so it have to be introduce. in her case by the serpent. grant it, the devil is evil. but not sin. but he can cause us to sin, but is it with or without knowledge
I would like to hear your point of view on this.
If you are without sin, you do not need a Savior and in fact you would be elevated to the same level as Jesus Christ.
If you are without sin, and were murdered then you could even be the Savior of all mankind, but since no one could do that, Jesus came and offered Himself on our behalf.
God did not send His "mother", He sent His Son.
Jesus Christ is Mary's Savior, too...because she needs Him to save her from her sins.
Axehead
If you are without sin, and were murdered then you could even be the Savior of all mankind, but since no one could do that, Jesus came and offered Himself on our behalf.
God did not send His "mother", He sent His Son.
Jesus Christ is Mary's Savior, too...because she needs Him to save her from her sins.
Axehead
Jesus taught us to pray directly to the Father, but he also said to pray to the Father in Jesus’ name. We do not go to the Father without first going through Jesus. If you’re trying to pray to God without Jesus, then you'll get nowhere. No one is worthy to go to God the Father in prayer because we have all sinned. No sinner can go to God. God made a way for mankind to approach Him. That way is Jesus!Mungo said:
Jesus not only taught us to pray directly to the Father, but he also said to pray to the Father in Jesus’ name. In other words, we do not go to the Father without first going through Jesus. If you’re trying to pray to God without Jesus, he will not hear you.
The scriptures say to pray to the Father, but in Jesus name. We are not to pray to Jesus, or anybody except God…this we must do in Jesus name.
I always say, “Jesus said not to pray to him, but to the Father through him.” It’s not written that way, but the meaning is the same. I’m sorry for not being clear.
Selene
New Member
Jesus was God, Just incase you didn't know. So ALL people are sinners Including Mary who admitted that she needed a saviour.Mungo said:
Jesus was God, Just incase you didn't know, He had God's divine nature.Mungo said:
Infants and mentally deficient people have the Adamic sinfull nature born into them, But until infants come to an age of understanding, They are in God's care, If an infant dies they will go to heaven, It;s the same with those who don't have the mentality to understand.
Mary was a sinner, She admited she needed a saviour, She had to be cleansed, She had to be made acceptable to God before she could have Jesus.
I have read #54, It's a typical catholic eroneous view.ChurchAuthority said:
Mary had to made acceptable to God before God could the Spirit of God the Son into her, What do you think grace is??
It is "Unmerited favour", She didn't merit God's favour until God made her acceptable o Him. If she was sinless, She wouldn't have needed God's Grace.
The Bible says Mary Found favour, Not she already had it.
She admited herself that she needed a saviour.
Jesus was God, Just incase you didn't know, He never had the Adamic sinful nature.Selene said:
domenic said:
"It’s not written that way, but the meaning is the same."
In other words you made that up. If it was clear you could actually quote the text. It's your personal interpretation.
And as I said - it depends what you mean by "pray". There are different meanings to the word in different contexts.
Do you want to go into the whole what do we mean by "praying" to Mary & the Saints?
Alanforchrist said:
Jesus was fully human. Therefore ALL meaning literally ALL must include Jesus.
Babies, small children and the seriously mentally deficient cannot personally sin. But again ALL if it means literally ALL must include them.
Yes, they have the effects of the original sin of Adam, but not personal sin.
Mary needed a saviour to save her from the effects of Adams sin but she did not personally sin.
Under the Mosaic Law, when a woman had a child, there was to be purification period, she being unclean until such was complete. At Leviticus 12, it says that " in case a woman conceives seed and does bear a male, she must be unclean seven days; as in the days of the impurity when she is menstruating she will be unclean.....for thirty-three days more she will stay in the blood of purification. She should not touch any holy thing, and she should not come into the holy place until the fulfilling of the days of her purification."(Lev 12:2, 4)Mungo said:
Then it says further: "Then at the fulfilling of the days of her purification for a son or a daughter she will bring a young ram in its first year for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering to the entrance of the tent of meeting to the priest. And he must present it before Jehovah and make atonement for her, and she must be clean from the source of her blood. But if she cannot afford enough for a sheep, she must then take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for burnt offering and one for a sin offering, and the priest must make atonement for her, and she must be clean."(Lev 12:6-8)
Thus, Mary was not sinless, but a sinner like the rest of us, having to go to the temple after her purification days were over to offer either two turtledoves or two pigeons as a sin offering.(Luke 2:22-24) Only then was she considered as "clean" in God's eyes.
This impressed on her that she was sinful, and with the bearing of children, sin was being passed on to her sons and daughters, who in turn, passed sin onto their descendants. This further impressed of the need for a redeemer, for a ransom, one that will remove her (as well as her children) sinful condition permanently, realizing that she, as well as her children become unclean before Jehovah.
In the Bible, the word sin comes from the Hebrew word chat·ta’th´; in Greek the usual word is ha·mar·ti´a. In both languages the verb forms (Heb., cha·ta’´; Gr., ha·mar·ta´no) mean “miss,” in the sense of missing or not reaching a goal, way, mark, or right point.
At Judges 20:16 cha·ta’´ is used, with a negative, to describe the Benjamites who were ‘slingers of stones to a hairbreadth and would not miss.’ Greek writers often used ha·mar·ta´no with regard to a spearman missing his target. Both of these words were used to mean missing or failing to reach not merely physical objects or goals (Job 5:24) but also moral or intellectual goals or marks.
Proverbs 8:35, 36 says the one finding godly wisdom finds life, but the ‘one missing [from Heb., cha·ta’´] wisdom is doing violence to his soul,’ leading to death. In the Scriptures both the Hebrew and Greek terms refer mainly to sinning on the part of God’s intelligent creatures, their missing the mark with regard to their Creator. Hence, sin, any sin, is missing the mark of perfect obedience to Jehovah God. Only Jesus proved sinless down to his death.(1 Pet 2:22)
101G
Well-Known Member
Guestman said:
You are missing the point here. We are in a unique situation.
Jesus is unique in the whole history of the Universe. Not just unusual, or exceptional, or special, but utterly unique. His incarnation is unique and that makes Mary unique. God planned for her from the beginnings of the earth. Therefore you cannot just apply the normal rules to her.
Of course Mary gave the ceremonial offering because she was obeying the Law of Moses as a good Jewish woman not because she needed to be purified of sin, just as Jesus accepted John’s baptism which was a baptism of repentance though Jesus himself had nothing to repent of.
If you look at the text of Leviticus 12 you will see the instruction (verse 4)
And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. .
Now Jesus, her child was a “holy thing” (Luke 1:35) so should Mary not have touched Jesus for 41 days? Should she not have held him in her arms, or fed him?
Moreover Leviticus 12 says And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child…
But Mary did not conceive seed. She conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit not male seed.
Your arguments about Leviticus 12 are simply inapplicable.
Another point. You say:
“This impressed on her that she was sinful, and with the bearing of children, sin was being passed on to her sons and daughters, who in turn, passed sin onto their descendants.”
If sin was passed on to her sons and daughters did Mary pass sin on to her son?
If not why not? Could it be because Mary was immaculately conceived and therefore could not pass sin onto Jesus?
101G
Well-Known Member
that flesh and blood was not conceived "of" Mary, but rather "in" Mary. neither of herself, or any other human. Mary was not the biological Mother of our Lord. she was only the surrogate mother that birthed the child of flesh, blood and bone. Mary had nothing to do with Jesus the Christ conception. and the only thing she had to do with our Lord is to bring into this world the body that he entered into. and that's all. that conception was "of" no human creature/being. Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost". Mary, nor Joseph had anything do with the conception, only Mary birthed flesh, bone, and blood. so no sin, or anything else was passed on.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
surragate mother? Jesus could not be related to David if He wasn't related to Mary. The Bible tells us that Jesus was from the line of David.
- Status
Similar threads
