Was Mary sinless?
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aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
scripture? there is no scripture or church father that supports the idea that Mary and Jesus were not related. the closest doctrine from the early church that loosely relates is Gnosticism, which is heretical.
101G
Well-Known Member
Psalms 132:11 "The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
Romans 1:3 "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
this is the new beginning, John 1:1 the new man. 1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
read what it says.
Romans 1:3 "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
this is the new beginning, John 1:1 the new man. 1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
read what it says.
101G
Well-Known Member
Jesus was the Son of God, Just incase you didn't know, He had God's divine nature, Not the Adamic sinful nature.Mungo said:
Mary did have the Adamic sin nature, And that means she needed to be saved in order to have God's divine nature, 2 Pet 1: 4.
Jesus didn't just die to save our personal sins, He died and rose again to give us a brand new life.
Jn 5: 26, Says God and Jesus had the Zoe life of God, And in Jn 10: 10, Jesus says we have the Zoe life of God, also see. 2 Cor 5: 17.
So Mary needed saving to have the Zoe nature of God, As she still had the Adamic sin nature.
If Mary rejoiced in God her saviour, The she admited that she was saved, So she also must have been a sinner, If she wasn'r a sinner, she wouldn't have needed saving.
The Bible rests it's case, catholic loose.
Alanforchrist said:
Jesus was fully God and fully human - One person with two natures.
The human nature that Jesus received from Mary was the perfect nature that God bestowed upon Adam. When Adam fell his fallen nature was inherited by his descendants.
The whole point of Paul's comparison of Jesus to Adam is that Jesus undid what Adam did when he sinned (Rom 5:12-15, 1Cor 15:45-47). He did this as a man in his human nature.
Mary was saved from the effects of Adam's sin by being conceived with Adam's original immaculate nature. That was due to the saving work of Jesus. That is why she needed a saviour. She did not need a saviour because she had personally sinned.
Jesus was conceived pure and immaculate because Mary was pure and immaculate. As Job said “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:4).
Mary is the new Eve. Like bookends in time Jesus and Mary recapitulate Adam and Eve.
“For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.” (1Tim 2:13-14).
Just as Adam and Eve were created immaculate so it is fitting that the new Adam (Jesus) and the new Eve (Mary) should be immaculate.
How is it possible that Mary received Adam's immaculate nature when it no longer existed?Mungo said:
A child received it's inheritance from its father, not its mother. So she received her inheritance from a corrupted Adam, and Jesus received his perfect inheritance from his perfect father.
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Do you think God cannot repair what has been damaged? That was Jesus' saving work in Mary
We receive our human nature from both our human mother and our human father. Jesus did not have a human father so he received his human nature only from Mary
101G
Well-Known Member
How is it possible that Mary received Adam's immaculate nature when it no longer existed?
A child received it's inheritance from its father, not its mother. So she received her inheritance from a corrupted Adam, and Jesus received his perfect inheritance from his perfect father.
this is a good question. so I have a question, if there was no more original Adamic nature. where did Melchisedec get his nature. and please don't tell me that this is Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:19 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you. if the apostle Peter would have said that he was manifested again in these last time ok. but our Lord manifested ONLY ONE TIME. so I ask, where did Melchisedec get his nature from?.
A child received it's inheritance from its father, not its mother. So she received her inheritance from a corrupted Adam, and Jesus received his perfect inheritance from his perfect father.
this is a good question. so I have a question, if there was no more original Adamic nature. where did Melchisedec get his nature. and please don't tell me that this is Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:19 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you. if the apostle Peter would have said that he was manifested again in these last time ok. but our Lord manifested ONLY ONE TIME. so I ask, where did Melchisedec get his nature from?.
No, I am not missing the point. Mary was a righteous woman, but still a sinner. Otherwise, she would not have had to offer a sin offering at the temple.(Luke 2:22-24) And God did not "plan for her from the beginnings of the earth", for where is Scriptural proof of your assertions ?Mungo said:
She was chosen because both her and her husband to be Joseph, were righteous and Jehovah God recognized that they were the right "parents" to raise his Son till adulthood.(Matt 1:19) Just as Zechariah and Elizabeth were selected by Jehovah for them to bring to birth John the Baptist because they too were righteous. (Luke 1:5, 6)
Mary was not to "touch any holy thing", not person, such as the holy utensils nor could she come into the sanctuary or tabernacle, for it was considered as defiling the tabernacle. Leviticus 15:31 says: "And you must keep the sons of Israel separate from their uncleanness, that they may not die in their uncleanness for their defiling of my tabernacle, which is in their midst."
And Mary did "conceive seed" for Jesus was born as a human, being called the "Son of man."(Matt 8:20) Conceiving "seed" does not have to be from a human father, for God is our Father just as males are fathers. We pray to him, calling him our "Father", for he created us, conceiving us.(Gen 1:26; Matt 6:9) Ps 100:3 says: "Know that Jehovah is God. It is he that has made us, and not we ourselves." You are "straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel", trying to maintain that Mary was sinless.(Matt 23:24)
The Catholic teaching of the Immaculate Conception of Mary is just another of the false religious teachings promoted by Catholicism. This dogma maintains that from the moment of her conception, she was free of sin even till death. This is rejected by the Bible. I might add that anyone who is sinless does not die, for it is Adamic sin that causes one to grow old and die.
For example, when Jesus was teaching, a woman spoke up and said: "Happy is the womb that carried you and the breasts that you sucked !" How did Jesus respond ? Did he speak favorably of his mother Mary ? No. In fact, he said nothing of his mother, but stated: "No, rather, Happy are those hearing the word of God and keeping it."(Luke 11:27, 28) Why was not one word was said of Mary if she was such a "saint" and "sinless"?
On an earlier occasion, when he attended a marriage feast, when his mother said that "they have no wine", how did Jesus respond ? He corrected her, saying: "What have I to do with you, woman ? My hour has not come yet."(John 2:3, 4) How could she be sinless and receive a reproof from Jesus who truly was sinless ?(1 Pet 2:22) Simply because she was a "sinner" like all of us.
There was no sin in childbirth. It was a ritual (ceremonial) offering.Guestman said:
She was chosen from the very beginning of time. She was prepared for her role by being immaculately conceived so that she would be a perfect and holy person for God's son.Guestman said:
Jesus was conceived pure and immaculate because Mary was pure and immaculate. As Job said “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:4).
Gen 3:15 “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed” Her seed is Jesus and the “her” is Mary. God promises enmity between Mary and Satan. Now enmity is being an enemy. When we sin we are not being an enemy of Satan but doing his will rather than God’s So here in the garden God is promising a woman who will totally oppose Satan – who will not sin.
[SIZE=12pt]And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.(Lk 1:35 - KJV)[/SIZE]Guestman said:
God is Spirit.Guestman said:
Spirits do not have seed
Guestman said:
It is not a false teaching nor is it rejected by the Bible.
Your examples are false.
Jesus did not rejected his mother in Luke 11:27, 28. He was pointing out that keeping the word of God is important.
Who heard and kept the word of God more than Mary?
Mary conceived the true Word of God in her womb.
Elizabeth said "And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord." (Lk 1:25)
Nor did Jesus correct or reprove his mother in John 2:3,4).
Jesus was actually deferring to Mary's request and she knew it. That is why she could say to the attendants with confidence (vs 5) "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it."
"what have I to do with thee?" is a Jewish idom of deferment as in Mk 5:6-7
"But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God?"
And Mk 1:23-24
"And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth?"
The unclean spirits were not correcting or reproving Jesus but deferring to him.
You haven't answered this poiint that I made.
You say:
“This impressed on her that she was sinful, and with the bearing of children, sin was being passed on to her sons and daughters, who in turn, passed sin onto their descendants.”
If sin was passed on to her sons and daughters did Mary pass sin on to her son?
If not why not? Could it be because Mary was immaculately conceived and therefore could not pass sin onto Jesus?
What you are suggesting is unbiblical. The Adamic nature was condemned to death; it cannot be repaired. We receive a new life and walk in it by putting the old nature to death. That is the saving work of Christ.Mungo said:
This doctrine you believe is an example why many won't go near a catholic church. Way too many unbiblical traditions of men.taught as doctrine.
What you are saying is unbiblical.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Where does the Bible say that the fallen nature we receive from Adam is unrepairable? “with God all things are possible." (Mt 19:26)
Adam’s nature wasn’t changed to a different one when he disobeyed God but it was wounded. He lost absolute control of his will over his desires and ruptured his relationship with God.
“he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit” (Ti 3:5)
We are renewed, made as new. We do not get a brand new nature but our old one is renewed, although there is still concupiscence, because of which we still struggle as Paul did:
"For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members." (Rom 7:19-23).
We are conceived in sin, for David wrote: "Look ! With error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother conceived me."(Ps 51:5) Under the Mosaic Law. a woman who gave birth had to offer a sin offering to show that both she and her offspring are sinful, in need of a redeemer. Mary thus confessed to her hereditary sinfulness, acknowledging that she was not sinless, immaculate, but in need of atonement, bringing Jesus to the temple in Jerusalem on the 40th day after his birth.Mungo said:
She would not have needed to receive atonement (or purification) if she did not sin. Leviticus 12 says that "he (or she) must present it (the sin offering of a turtledove or pigeon) before Jehovah make atonement for her."(Lev 12:7) Obviously you fail to understand what is meant by "atonement" (Hebrew kaphar, meaning "to cover"), to atone or "cover over" for one's sins. Again, you are grasping at straws. Mary was a sinner, in need of a redeemer. As Solomon told the nation of Israel when inaugurating the temple, that "there is no man (or woman) that does not sin."(1 Kings 8:46)
And of Job saying: "Who can produce someone clean out of someone unclean ?" at Job 14:4, this is referring to imperfect humans being unable to bring forth someone sinless. However, this was not speaking of Jehovah God as the Father of Jesus, causing Mary to become pregnant with his Son, for the father determines the sex and characteristics of the child.
The angel Gabriel said that for his Son, Jesus, to be sinless, that "holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you", so that "what is born will be called holy, God's Son."(Luke 1:35) Jehovah ensured that his Son would be without any flaws, perfect, for he had to provide an atoning sacrifice ("corresponding ransom" [Greek antilytron], 1 Tim 2:6) for obedient mankind, being equal to Adam when he was still perfect, before his rebellion in the Garden of Eden. Of no other child has this been said.
And the "woman" at Genesis 3:15 is neither Eve nor Mary. Rather, this "woman" is that from which Jesus (as the "woman's seed") came forth, the entire body of loyal angels in heaven (Isa 54:1; Rev 12:1) and also called "the Jerusalem above".(Gal 4:21-29) Just as the "serpent" represents Satan who became an apostate (Rev 12:9) so likewise "the woman" represents those opposed to him, those who he was once part of, the loyal angels in heaven, and from whom Jesus came to become "the Son of man".
And at Luke 1:35, the angel Gabriel told Mary: "Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God's Son." Under the Mosaic Law, the firstborn was called "holy" (Luke 2:23; Ex 13:2; 22:29), and Mary, as with any mother, was to lovingly take care of her new child. However, she was not touch any holy or sacred utensils nor come before the tabernacle or temple.(Lev 15:31) There is no need to continue this discussion with you.
101G
Well-Known Member
Psalms 51:2 "Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me".
We are conceived in sin, for David wrote. that's misapplied. his mother, conceive him in sin. not every mother.
We are conceived in sin, for David wrote. that's misapplied. his mother, conceive him in sin. not every mother.
Our minds are being renewed in the spirit, but our bodies aren't; they are dying. They are dying because they are corrupt. Mary's body was corrupted by sin; she died. Corruption cannot inherit incorruption. That is why we will receive new, uncorrupted bodies.Mungo said:
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:50
101G
Well-Known Member
Romans 8:19 "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity
not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope
just because a body is born, it is not sin. for our Lord's body was born, and it grew, where by shows corruption.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity
not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope
just because a body is born, it is not sin. for our Lord's body was born, and it grew, where by shows corruption.
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