Was Mary sinless?

[Mungo]

Our minds are being renewed in the spirit, but our bodies aren't; they are dying. They are dying because they are corrupt. Mary's body was corrupted by sin; she died. Corruption cannot inherit incorruption. That is why we will receive new, uncorrupted bodies.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:50

You cannot prove that Mary died.

You cannot prove that Mary sinned.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You cannot prove that Mary died.
You cannot prove that Mary sinned.

You are in serious denial.

 

[101G]

we can prove that Mary's natural body did die. 1 Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it dieif Mary is quicken or will be quicken she must DIE) 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain".

thou sowest not that body that shall be. so Mary will be raised just like all of us who die. just like David.

 

[Mungo]

we can prove that Mary's natural body did die. 1 Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it dieif Mary is quicken or will be quicken she must DIE) 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain".

thou sowest not that body that shall be. so Mary will be raised just like all of us who die. just like David.

Mary is already in heaven, body and soul.

You are in serious denial.

No I'm not. Why am I in denial when you cannot prove what you claim?

 

[101G]

Acts 2:25 "For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

in the resurrection, we all will be raised, including MARY.

 

[Mungo]

Acts 2:25 "For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

in the resurrection, we all will be raised, including MARY.

She is already there.

John saw her - Rev 12:1

Also see my post #78

 

[101G]

I can't believe you. that is his birth. Boy, Oh Boy.
Jesus was being born?, GET IT?.

 

[Alanforchrist]

Jesus was fully God and fully human - One person with two natures.

The human nature that Jesus received from Mary was the perfect nature that God bestowed upon Adam. When Adam fell his fallen nature was inherited by his descendants.

The whole point of Paul's comparison of Jesus to Adam is that Jesus undid what Adam did when he sinned (Rom 5:12-15, 1Cor 15:45-47). He did this as a man in his human nature.

Mary was saved from the effects of Adam's sin by being conceived with Adam's original immaculate nature. That was due to the saving work of Jesus. That is why she needed a saviour. She did not need a saviour because she had personally sinned.

Jesus was conceived pure and immaculate because Mary was pure and immaculate. As Job said “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:4).

Mary is the new Eve. Like bookends in time Jesus and Mary recapitulate Adam and Eve.
“For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.” (1Tim 2:13-14).

Just as Adam and Eve were created immaculate so it is fitting that the new Adam (Jesus) and the new Eve (Mary) should be immaculate.

God says "ALL have sinned", And, "There is none righteous, No not one", That includes Mary, So Give me at least two scriptures that say Mary was sinless, Otherwise stop calling God a lying deceiver.

Mary said herself that God was her saviour, If she wasn't a sinner, Why would she haveneeded to be saved??.
As I say, You are calling God a lying deciever.

 

[Mungo]

God says "ALL have sinned", And, "There is none righteous, No not one", That includes Mary, So Give me at least two scriptures that say Mary was sinless, Otherwise stop calling God a lying deceiver.

Mary said herself that God was her saviour, If she wasn't a sinner, Why would she haveneeded to be saved??.
As I say, You are calling God a lying deciever.

We been all through that several times in this thread - see posts #4, #58, #61, #69, 73, #75, #97 (& others).

Why do you want to go through it all again? Just go back and read the posts.

 

[Axehead]

The word sin means, "Falling short of the mark."

There are two sins. Sin from what Adam and Eve did, and sins we do. Mary had sin from what Adam and Eve did. There is no record of her sinning. Mary was in line for the seed.

There is no record of many people sinning in the NT. So what?

We have this record, though: For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Rom 3:23

Do you believe the Scripture or are you going to "adjust" it to agree with your theology? We are suppose to line up with Scripture not line up the Scriptures with our desires.

You are in serious denial. (CRFD responding to Mungo)

I don't even know why I posted. You cannot communicate to someone that denies clear scriptures or adjusts them to support their beliefs.

I can't prove that John the Apostle sinned, either.

 

[Alanforchrist]

We been all through that several times in this thread - see posts #4, #58, #61, #69, 73, #75, #97 (& others).

Why do you want to go through it all again? Just go back and read the posts.

So now you know that Mary was a sinner then??, If you have been through this many times, You must have read the truth.
If Mary was sinless, Then give me at least two scriptures to prove it, Or stop calling God a lying deceiver.

 

[Mungo]

So now you know that Mary was a sinner then??, If you have been through this many times, You must have read the truth.
If Mary was sinless, Then give me at least two scriptures to prove it, Or stop calling God a lying deceiver.

Your claim has been rebutted several times.

Have you anything new to say?

 

[ChurchAuthority]

Apparently NOBODY read post #54, where I answered just about every, single one of your questions. Most of you wouldn't be asking many of these questions if had bothered to read that post.

Here it is again. Pleas R*E*A*D before replying:


So, let me get this straight. You believe that God can heal the sick give sight to the blind, raise the dead - but He CAN'T allow Mary to hear multiple petitions for prayer??

REALLY?? What a weak God you've carved ou for yourself . . .

The Greek word is kecharitomene that Luke used in his Gospel (v.1:28), which is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. Thus it translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” By comparison, the word used in Ephesians 1:6 and applied to the saints is charis.

The Fathers of the Eastern Church (Orthodox), who shared the same tradition with the Catholic Church until they split in 1054 A.D., refer to Mary as "the All-Holy" (Panagia) and the Church believes she "remained free of every personal sin her whole life long” by the grace of God.
Protestants often use Romans 3 to try to disprove the idea of Mary’s sinlessness. They point to the notion that Mary MUST have been in need of a Savior because of the words she spoke in the presences of her relative, Elizabeth:
Luke 1:46-47:
“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior.”

This is one place where the Catholic Church agrees with the Protestant. We believe that Mary – as do all of us – needed a Savior. However, because of the special role she was about to play in salvation history, the Church teaches that Mary was saved from the time of her conception to be the fitting and proper vessel to carry God. One ancient analogy speaks of a puddle of mud that all believers fall into. God rescues us out of the mud, whereas, Mary was rescued before she was able to fall in.

In Romans 3:10, 23, the idea that Paul was speaking literally about everybody is sometimes pointed to by those who twist the Scriptures to their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).

Paul says: “There is no one righteous, not even one; For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.”
Is that right? How about babies or toddlers below the age of reason?
What about those who are mentally challenged and may not have full use of their intellect and will?
What about Jesus?

In this passage, St. Paul is actually quoting Psalm 14, where it says, "The fool (the evil) says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt...there is none that does good.’” Later in the same Psalm, we hear that “God is present in the company of the “righteous.”

St. Paul was using inclusive language, as was the Psalmist. This would be similar to somebody saying that “everybody in town” came to the celebration. The mass of mankind is what is being referred to in these passages – not every individual human being ever born.

 

[jiggyfly]

Was Mary sinless?

Mary who?

 

[ChurchAuthority]

Mary who?

Uhhh, Mary, the mother of GOD.

 

[Alanforchrist]

Your claim has been rebutted several times.

Have you anything new to say?

First of all, They are not my claims, It's what the Bible says.
Secondly, I might have been rebutted by the Biblically ignorant catholics, But not by God.

Apparently NOBODY read post #54, where I answered just about every, single one of your questions. Most of you wouldn't be asking many of these questions if had bothered to read that post.

Here it is again. Pleas R*E*A*D before replying:


So, let me get this straight. You believe that God can heal the sick give sight to the blind, raise the dead - but He CAN'T allow Mary to hear multiple petitions for prayer??

REALLY?? What a weak God you've carved ou for yourself . . .

The Greek word is kecharitomene that Luke used in his Gospel (v.1:28), which is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. Thus it translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” By comparison, the word used in Ephesians 1:6 and applied to the saints is charis.

The Fathers of the Eastern Church (Orthodox), who shared the same tradition with the Catholic Church until they split in 1054 A.D., refer to Mary as "the All-Holy" (Panagia) and the Church believes she "remained free of every personal sin her whole life long” by the grace of God.
Protestants often use Romans 3 to try to disprove the idea of Mary’s sinlessness. They point to the notion that Mary MUST have been in need of a Savior because of the words she spoke in the presences of her relative, Elizabeth:
Luke 1:46-47:
“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior.”

This is one place where the Catholic Church agrees with the Protestant. We believe that Mary – as do all of us – needed a Savior. However, because of the special role she was about to play in salvation history, the Church teaches that Mary was saved from the time of her conception to be the fitting and proper vessel to carry God. One ancient analogy speaks of a puddle of mud that all believers fall into. God rescues us out of the mud, whereas, Mary was rescued before she was able to fall in.

In Romans 3:10, 23, the idea that Paul was speaking literally about everybody is sometimes pointed to by those who twist the Scriptures to their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).

Paul says: “There is no one righteous, not even one; For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.”
Is that right? How about babies or toddlers below the age of reason?
What about those who are mentally challenged and may not have full use of their intellect and will?
What about Jesus?

In this passage, St. Paul is actually quoting Psalm 14, where it says, "The fool (the evil) says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt...there is none that does good.’” Later in the same Psalm, we hear that “God is present in the company of the “righteous.”

St. Paul was using inclusive language, as was the Psalmist. This would be similar to somebody saying that “everybody in town” came to the celebration. The mass of mankind is what is being referred to in these passages – not every individual human being ever born.

[1] 1 Tim 2: 5, Says there is only one mediator, And that wasn't Mary, If you read 1 Tim 2: 5, You'll see the "One mediator" is Jesus.

[2]The Greek word is in Lk 1: 28, IS NOT kecharitomene, It is "Charitoo".
it means Mary had to be made acceptable because she was a sinner. Grace is "Undeserved unmerited favour", Meaning mary didn't deserve or merit favour, She said herslf that she needed a saviour, And only sinners need a saviour.

[3]The Greek word for "ALL" as in All have sinned, Is "Pas", It means, "ALL, & Everyone", That includes Mary, For you to say mary was sinless Is to call God a lying deceiver.
Give me scriptures that say Mary was sinless, And I don't mean twisting them Or speculating.

Uhhh, Mary, the mother of GOD.

Mary the mother of Jesus the Son of God, Not the mother of God, Mary IS NOT the mother of God the Father or God the Holy Ghost.
So catholics should say, "Mary the mother of the Son of God",
To say Mary iis the mother of God, Is misleading.

 

[Mungo]

First of all, They are not my claims, It's what the Bible says.
Secondly, I might have been rebutted by the Biblically ignorant catholics, But not by God.

It's your personal and very fallible interpretation of what the Bible says.

[1] 1 Tim 2: 5, Says there is only one mediator, And that wasn't Mary, If you read 1 Tim 2: 5, You'll see the "One mediator" is Jesus.

What has that to do with anything ChurchAuthority said?

Are you just attempting a diversion?

Mary the mother of Jesus the Son of God, Not the mother of God, Mary IS NOT the mother of God the Father or God the Holy Ghost.
So catholics should say, "Mary the mother of the Son of God",
To say Mary iis the mother of God, Is misleading.

Mary is the Mother of Jesus
Jesus is God
Therefore Mary is the Mother of God

Simple logic. Even Biblically ignorant catholics can manage that.

[3]The Greek word for "ALL" as in All have sinned, Is "Pas", It means, "ALL, & Everyone", That includes Mary, For you to say mary was sinless Is to call God a lying deceiver.

You are not answering the points made but just ignoring them.

If ALL in Rom 3:23 means every single person without exception then:
Did Jesus sin?
Do pre-born babies sin?
Do little children sin?
Do mentally incapacitated people sin?

The correct answer is no, Paul does not mean literally ALL.

In 1Cor 15:22 Paul uses the same Greek word for all (pantes)

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

We know that many will reject Christ and be condemned to hell. So Paul cannot mean that literally ALL are made alive in Christ.

[2]The Greek word is in Lk 1: 28, IS NOT kecharitomene, It is "Charitoo".
it means Mary had to be made acceptable because she was a sinner. Grace is "Undeserved unmerited favour", Meaning mary didn't deserve or merit favour, She said herslf that she needed a saviour, And only sinners need a saviour.

Luke 1:28 uses the word kecharitomene.

Look it up - http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/luk1.pdf

 

[jiggyfly]

Uhhh, Mary, the mother of GOD.

Why should anyone care if she or anyone else was sinless or sinful? All that matters is trusting in Christ's work at the cross to make us acceptable with Father. Did any of the apostles ever mention Jesus' fleshly mother?

 

[Mungo]

Why should anyone care if she or anyone else was sinless or sinful? All that matters is trusting in Christ's work at the cross to make us acceptable with Father. Did any of the apostles ever mention Jesus' fleshly mother?

The Immaculate Conception was not for Mary’s sake but so that she would be the perfect holy vessel to bear the utterly holy God. This doctrine then upholds the holiness and deity of Christ.

That Jesus preserved her from sin shows that he can truly save “to the uttermost” (Hen 7:25) and that he fulfils the commandment to honour his mother in every way he can.

We are called to imitate Christ and therefore we should honour Mary just as Christ honoured her, and continues to honour her.

Salvation is not just being raised up from sin. It is being raised up to glory to share the in life of God, to an intimate union with God.

“His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.” (2Pet 1:3-4).

This is a gift from God - grace, the grace that only Jesus can give. And God gave Mary that grace from the moment of her conception so that she would be perfect and holy for his intimate union with him in her womb.

She was totally holy as a fitting mother for Jesus. Why would God allow his only Son to be born by a fallen sinful woman when he could fill her with grace to be holy and pure?

“What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para 487)

Marian doctrines and titles are not defined to glorify Mary but to protect our understanding of Jesus.

1. We believe that Mary is the Mother of God because her son was truly God. We thereby affirm that Jesus one divine person with two natures, human and divine.

2. We believe that Mary was conceived without sin because the son she was to conceive was the all Holy God. The immaculate conception enabled her to be holy and perfect so that she would be a worthy mother to bear the all Holy Son of God. We then affirm that Jesus was conceived as perfect man and was the perfect Saviour.

3. The Virgin Birth shows God’s initiative and action in Mary conceiving Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. In turn it affirms that Jesus has both a human and a divine nature.

4. Mary was the second Eve because Jesus was the second Adam. It demonstrates the generosity of Christ in involving a woman in the redemption of mankind.

5. We describe Mary as the Ark of the new Covenant. We thereby affirm that Jesus in her womb was the Word made flesh, the great high priest, the bread of life, who established a new covenant.

6. She could be assumed into heaven only because Jesus rose from the dead. Her assumption was a demonstration of the resurrection he promised us.

7. She is the Queen of heaven because Jesus is the King of kings and her Queenship affirms that Jesus is of the royal line of David.

8. When we accept Mary as our mother we affirm that Jesus is our brother and we are “one body” with him.

There is an old Catholic saying "Abandoning the Mother is one step from abandoning the Son".

Or as an Orthodox put it “To ignore the Mother means to misinterpret the Son”.

As long as we profess these truths about Mary, we are safeguarded from denying truths about Jesus Christ.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

Why should anyone care if she or anyone else was sinless or sinful? All that matters is trusting in Christ's work at the cross to make us acceptable with Father. Did any of the apostles ever mention Jesus' fleshly mother?

Why? As St. Augustine wisely posited:
"The New Testament lies hidden in the Old Testament and the Old is revealed in the New."

The Old Testament is filled with types, symbols and shadows that are revealed in the New Testament. Mary is no different.
Adam & Jesus
Moses & Jesus
Manna & Jesus
Eliakim & Peter
The Ark of the Covenant & Mary

Mary is the fulfillment of the Ark of the Covenant - and this is overwhelmingly Scriptural. Whereas the Ark carried symbols of God within it, Mary actually carried GOD in the Person of Jesus in her womb. New Testament fulfillments are always more glorious and perfect than theit OT types - without exception.

Here is the Biblical proof:
The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) Mary carried the Word of God.

[The New Covenant] will not be like the covenant that... they broke though I was their husband (Jer. 31:31)
The Holy Spirit (God) is Mary's spouse (Luke 1:35)

"Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
“Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43)

When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2 38)

The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Mat 2:14)


So, to answer your question about why should we care if Mary was sinless??
To fulfill ALL righteousness and prophecy.

we can prove that Mary's natural body did die. 1 Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it dieif Mary is quicken or will be quicken she must DIE) 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain".

thou sowest not that body that shall be. so Mary will be raised just like all of us who die. just like David.

The Catholic Church has never taught that Mary didn't die - only that she was assumed into heaven body and soul. There are minor traditions that say Mary didn't die - however, because they are not considered Apostolic Traditions, they are not binding.

In the Book of Revelation, Mary is the ONLY Creature in heaven being spoken of as having a body (Rev. 12:1).