Was Mary sinless?

[101G]

2 ChurchAuthority, GINOLJC.
The Catholic Church has never taught that Mary didn't die - only that she was assumed into heaven body and soul. There are minor traditions that say Mary didn't die - however, because they are not considered Apostolic Traditions, they are not binding.

In the Book of Revelation, Mary is the ONLY Creature in heaven being spoken of as having a body (Rev. 12:1).

Look, I'm not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. the life of the body is the blood, right, scripture, Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul". and Leviticus 17:14 "For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off."

now follow me, if the life of the flesh/the body is in the blood, tell me how is Mary in heaven with blood?. and if you say, she's in heaven, (which she is not), but if you believe that, then she must have been changed, or quicken. and to do that there will be no blood, and no blood no life. meaning she died. for, "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption". and if you are saying that Mary have flesh and blood in heaven then you just denied the scriptures. so what's it going to be blood or no blood?. either way you go, with blood, you deny scripture, without blood, then she is change, your choice.

be blessed.

but remember, our Lord is the first fruit of the resurrection. and there is no record of anyone in the new testament being changed or quicken yet. but the apostle Paul gives us hope, 1 Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

so in conclusion, this must be a L..o...n...g .....sounding trumpet. because Mary be ove two thousand years.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

First of all, They are not my claims, It's what the Bible says.
Secondly, I might have been rebutted by the Biblically ignorant catholics, But not by God.

[1] 1 Tim 2: 5, Says there is only one mediator, And that wasn't Mary, If you read 1 Tim 2: 5, You'll see the "One mediator" is Jesus.

[2]The Greek word is in Lk 1: 28, IS NOT kecharitomene, It is "Charitoo".
it means Mary had to be made acceptable because she was a sinner. Grace is "Undeserved unmerited favour", Meaning mary didn't deserve or merit favour, She said herslf that she needed a saviour, And only sinners need a saviour.

[3]The Greek word for "ALL" as in All have sinned, Is "Pas", It means, "ALL, & Everyone", That includes Mary, For you to say mary was sinless Is to call God a lying deceiver.
Give me scriptures that say Mary was sinless, And I don't mean twisting them Or speculating.

Mary the mother of Jesus the Son of God, Not the mother of God, Mary IS NOT the mother of God the Father or God the Holy Ghost.
So catholics should say, "Mary the mother of the Son of God",
To say Mary iis the mother of God, Is misleading.

[SIZE=small]Sorry - Χηαριτοο[/SIZE] (charitoo) is not the word used in Luke 1:28.
The word used here is Kεχαριτωμένη [SIZE=small](kecharitomene).

Secondly, Mary is the mother of GOD. Jesus is both fully human and fully divine and these two natures cannot be separated. This is the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union, which was declared at the Council of Ephesus in 431. To say Mary gave birth only to Jesus’ human nature is to misunderstand this doctrine and speak heresy.

Another doctrine declared at Ephesus was one concerning Mary. This is the doctrine of Theotokos (God-bearer). This decree was actually proclaimed in order to define the nature of our Lord Jesus even more so than it was to proclaim Mary’s role. It was to defeat the Nestorian Heresy, which held that Jesus was not divine, but merely human and that God only dwelt in Him as in a temple - and therein
lies the heresy.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Mary gave birth not simply to a human being but to a divine person who united to himself a human and divine nature.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]Finally, Romans 3:10 does NOT imply that every single person has sinned. As I asked in an earlier post which NONE of you answered:[/SIZE]

What about infants who are below the age of reason?
What about severely retarded people who don’t have full use of their faculties?

[SIZE=small]Talk to me . . .[/SIZE]

2 ChurchAuthority, GINOLJC.
The Catholic Church has never taught that Mary didn't die - only that she was assumed into heaven body and soul. There are minor traditions that say Mary didn't die - however, because they are not considered Apostolic Traditions, they are not binding.

In the Book of Revelation, Mary is the ONLY Creature in heaven being spoken of as having a body (Rev. 12:1).

Look, I'm not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. the life of the body is the blood, right, scripture, Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul". and Leviticus 17:14 "For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off."

now follow me, if the life of the flesh/the body is in the blood, tell me how is Mary in heaven with blood?. and if you say, she's in heaven, (which she is not), but if you believe that, then she must have been changed, or quicken. and to do that there will be no blood, and no blood no life. meaning she died. for, "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption". and if you are saying that Mary have flesh and blood in heaven then you just denied the scriptures. so what's it going to be blood or no blood?. either way you go, with blood, you deny scripture, without blood, then she is change, your choice.

be blessed.

but remember, our Lord is the first fruit of the resurrection. and there is no record of anyone in the new testament being changed or quicken yet. but the apostle Paul gives us hope, 1 Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

so in conclusion, this must be a L..o...n...g .....sounding trumpet. because Mary be ove two thousand years.

All I am saying is that the belief that Mary didn't die is not binding on Catholics. However, we are free to believe that she didn't. Personally, I believe in the tradition that says she didn't die.

Consider Enoch and Elijah, whom Scripture states did not die.

 

[101G]

All I am saying is that the belief that Mary didn't die is not binding on Catholics. However, we are free to believe that she didn't. Personally, I believe in the tradition that says she didn't die.
Consider Enoch and Elijah, whom Scripture states did not die.

What Really Happened at Enoch’s Translation!
Remember, Moses didn’t write that Enoch did not die. Rather Moses wrote that "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" (Gen. 5:24). Paul records the same event by saying that he "was not found, because God had translated him" (Heb. 11:5).
Thus the Scripture records that Enoch was not found because God took him, or "translated" him. THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY THAT ENOCH WENT TO HEAVEN when he was translated. Instead it says he was not found.
Certainly Enoch was "translated," but what does the word "translate" mean?
Strange as it may seem, nowhere in all the Bible does "translate" mean to make immortal!
The original Greek word for "translate" is metatithemi. According to Strong’s Concordance it signifies: transfer, transport, exchange, change sides.

did Elijah go into the heaven of God’s throne, no, well then to which heaven did he go for the Scripture reads: "and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (II Kings 2:1, 11). not the throne room God.
check out this site for further information
"WHERE are ENOCH and ELIJAH?"
http://www.cgom.org/Publications/Booklets/Enoch_Elijah.htm

 

[ChurchAuthority]

All I am saying is that the belief that Mary didn't die is not binding on Catholics. However, we are free to believe that she didn't. Personally, I believe in the tradition that says she didn't die.
Consider Enoch and Elijah, whom Scripture states did not die.

What Really Happened at Enoch’s Translation!
Remember, Moses didn’t write that Enoch did not die. Rather Moses wrote that "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" (Gen. 5:24). Paul records the same event by saying that he "was not found, because God had translated him" (Heb. 11:5).
Thus the Scripture records that Enoch was not found because God took him, or "translated" him. THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY THAT ENOCH WENT TO HEAVEN when he was translated. Instead it says he was not found.
Certainly Enoch was "translated," but what does the word "translate" mean?
Strange as it may seem, nowhere in all the Bible does "translate" mean to make immortal!
The original Greek word for "translate" is metatithemi. According to Strong’s Concordance it signifies: transfer, transport, exchange, change sides.
did Elijah go into the heaven of God’s throne, no, well then to which heaven did he go for the Scripture reads: "and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (II Kings 2:1, 11). not the throne room God.
check out this site for further information
"WHERE are ENOCH and ELIJAH?"
http://www.cgom.org/Publications/Booklets/Enoch_Elijah.htm

Enoch and Elijah went to what was known as the Bosom of Abraham. Jesus speaks of this place in the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.
It is also known as Sheol or the Limbo of the Fathers. Heaven was not yet open until Jesus died and rose from the dead.

My point was not that Enoch and Elijah went straight to heaven, but that they were assumed - body and soul.

 

[101G]

My point was not that Enoch and Elijah went straight to heaven, but that they were assumed - body and soul.

maybe you need to clarify the way you are using assumed

 

[aspen]

i have question: what if Mary did commit personal sin? What if the Catholic Church got it wrong? Do you really believe God cares? Seems to me that honoring Mary by recognizing the work of God in her life should be pleasing to God, even if it happens to be inaccurate. We portray Jesus as a white guy in flowing robes too - is that really going to damn us or lead others to Hell like lemmings running into the sea? Once again, this issue comes down to what we believe about God's character - does He love us and want to be in relationship with us OR is He looking for a reason to damn us? I love my dogs even when they misbehave - I do not drop them off at the kill shelter every time they defy me. How much more must God love and care for us?

 

[101G]

True,
our father love us always, in spite of. but we must grow into obediance, so thay we want defy him. Romans 10:1 "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God".



*************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

whether or not Mary personally committed a sin, I don't know. but this is three things I known, #1. not all sin is unto death. (since the wages of sin is death). where do that put us or Mary at?. #2. I'm sinless now in Christ Jesus. #3. all those who was in sin, before our Lord gave his life, (how many I don't know), but all who heard our Lord Jesus, is now without sin. as the apostle said, Philippians 3:13 "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus".


with that I'm done.

 

[Alanforchrist]

[SIZE=small]Sorry - Χηαριτοο[/SIZE] (charitoo) is not the word used in Luke 1:28.
The word used here is Kεχαριτωμένη [SIZE=small](kecharitomene).

Secondly, Mary is the mother of GOD. Jesus is both fully human and fully divine and these two natures cannot be separated. This is the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union, which was declared at the Council of Ephesus in 431. To say Mary gave birth only to Jesus’ human nature is to misunderstand this doctrine and speak heresy.

Another doctrine declared at Ephesus was one concerning Mary. This is the doctrine of Theotokos (God-bearer). This decree was actually proclaimed in order to define the nature of our Lord Jesus even more so than it was to proclaim Mary’s role. It was to defeat the Nestorian Heresy, which held that Jesus was not divine, but merely human and that God only dwelt in Him as in a temple - and therein
lies the heresy.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Mary gave birth not simply to a human being but to a divine person who united to himself a human and divine nature.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]Finally, Romans 3:10 does NOT imply that every single person has sinned. As I asked in an earlier post which NONE of you answered:[/SIZE]

What about infants who are below the age of reason?
What about severely retarded people who don’t have full use of their faculties?

[SIZE=small]Talk to me . . .[/SIZE]


All I am saying is that the belief that Mary didn't die is not binding on Catholics. However, we are free to believe that she didn't. Personally, I believe in the tradition that says she didn't die.

Consider Enoch and Elijah, whom Scripture states did not die.

[1]The original Greek word is "Charitoo", In lk 1: 28, [SIZE=small](kecharitomene).is a catholic made up English translation, Not the original Greek word. You need to get your facts right.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small][2]Mary is the mother of the Son of God, Not oF God the Father or God the Holy Spirit., So catholics should change their terminology.[/SIZE]

[3] Romans 3:10 does say that EVERY single person has sinned. The Greek word for "ALL", As in All have sinned, Is "Pas", And it means, "ALL, Every",, WHY DOES EVERY CATHOLIC TWIST THE TRUTH??,

As for the infants and retarded, They [Like Mary] have the Adamic sin nature, But unless or until they can understand sin, God waon;t judge them, It is only when a person comes to an age of understanding, Then rejects the gospel, That they will be judged.



It's true, scriptures did say that Enoch and Elijah did not die.
But the Bible never said Mary didn't die.

 

[Mungo]

[1]The original Greek word is "Charitoo", In lk 1: 28, [SIZE=small](kecharitomene).is a catholic made up English translation, Not the original Greek word. You need to get your facts right.[/SIZE]

Luke 1:28 uses the word kecharitomene.

Look it up - http://www.scripture.../NTpdf/luk1.pdf

[SIZE=small][2]Mary is the mother of the Son of God, Not oF God the Father or God the Holy Spirit., So catholics should change their terminology.[/SIZE]

Mary is the Mother of Jesus
Jesus is God
Therefore Mary is the Mother of God

Simple logic. Even Biblically ignorant catholics can manage that.

[3] Romans 3:10 does say that EVERY single person has sinned. The Greek word for "ALL", As in All have sinned, Is "Pas", And it means, "ALL, Every",, WHY DOES EVERY CATHOLIC TWIST THE TRUTH??,

You are not answering the points made but just ignoring them.

If ALL in Rom 3:23 means every single person without exception then:
Did Jesus sin?
Do pre-born babies sin?
Do little children sin?
Do mentally incapacitated people sin?

The correct answer is no, Paul does not mean literally ALL.

In 1Cor 15:22 Paul uses the same Greek word for all (pantes)

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

We know that many will reject Christ and be condemned to hell. So Paul cannot mean that literally ALL are made alive in Christ.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

My point was not that Enoch and Elijah went straight to heaven, but that they were assumed - body and soul.

maybe you need to clarify the way you are using assumed

Assumed means that they didn't ascend, as Jesus did by His own power.

 

[aspen]

Paul uses a lot of extreme language to illustrate his points, which is one reason his writing is so engaging

 

[ChurchAuthority]

i have question: what if Mary did commit personal sin? What if the Catholic Church got it wrong? Do you really believe God cares? Seems to me that honoring Mary by recognizing the work of God in her life should be pleasing to God, even if it happens to be inaccurate. We portray Jesus as a white guy in flowing robes too - is that really going to damn us or lead others to Hell like lemmings running into the sea? Once again, this issue comes down to what we believe about God's character - does He love us and want to be in relationship with us OR is He looking for a reason to damn us? I love my dogs even when they misbehave - I do not drop them off at the kill shelter every time they defy me. How much more must God love and care for us?

As I stated earlier, as the fulfillment of the Ark, Mary had to be pure and undefiled - even MORESO than the Ark because NT fulfillments are ALWAYS more perfect and glorious than their OT Typres. This is without exception.

Why would God's fulfillmets ALL be better than their types - except for Mary??
Protestants simply don't have a cse here other than denial.

Finally - as for your question, "What if the Catholic Church got it wrong?" - for that question to be true, Jesus would have to be a liar. At the Last Supper, Jesus guaranteed His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide it to ALL truth (John 16:12-15), not just SOME Truth.

The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
The Church is the FULLNESS of Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:22-23) - and HE is truth itself (John 14:6).

[1]The original Greek word is "Charitoo", In lk 1: 28, [SIZE=small](kecharitomene).is a catholic made up English translation, Not the original Greek word. You need to get your facts right.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=small][2]Mary is the mother of the Son of God, Not oF God the Father or God the Holy Spirit., So catholics should change their terminology.[/SIZE]

[3] Romans 3:10 does say that EVERY single person has sinned. The Greek word for "ALL", As in All have sinned, Is "Pas", And it means, "ALL, Every",, WHY DOES EVERY CATHOLIC TWIST THE TRUTH??,

As for the infants and retarded, They [Like Mary] have the Adamic sin nature, But unless or until they can understand sin, God waon;t judge them, It is only when a person comes to an age of understanding, Then rejects the gospel, That they will be judged.



It's true, scriptures did say that Enoch and Elijah did not die.
But the Bible never said Mary didn't die.

So, do you believe that Jesus is not God? Do you deny His deity?
Do you deny His Hypostasis?

As for your extremely flawed position that "all" always means "everybody" you don't reeally have a Biblical leg to stand on.
The following Scriptural examples show us that the word "ALL" does not always mean "every" single person:

[SIZE=small]The following are more examples of the word “ALL” being used in the collective sense meaning a very large number, but allowing for some exceptions.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Romans 15:14[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]“I myself am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with ALL[/SIZE] knowledge, and able to instruct one another.”

[SIZE=small]I thought only GOD has ALL[/SIZE] knowledge.[SIZE=10.5pt] Is Paul telling the Romans that EACH of them knows ALL[/SIZE] – like God does?


[SIZE=small]1 Corinthians 15:22 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]“For as in Adam ALL[/SIZE] die, so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive.” RSV
[SIZE=small]And the Bible tells us that Enoch and Elijah did not die, [/SIZE]Genesis 5:24 and 2 Kings 2:11.
[SIZE=small]Hebrews 11:5[/SIZE] “By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him.”

[SIZE=small]Do ALL choose to follow God?? Have ALL[/SIZE] died??


[SIZE=small]Romans 1:29
“Being filled with ALL[/SIZE] unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers”

[SIZE=small]Does every wicked person do ALL things that are wrong? Are they ALL[/SIZE] fornicators and murderers and gossips?


[SIZE=small]Matthew 3:5-6
“Then went out to him [John the Baptist] Jerusalem and ALL[/SIZE] Judea and ALL the region about the Jordan, and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.”

[SIZE=small]And yet did “ALL” Jerusalem go out to him? How about the Pharisees? Did THEY[/SIZE] go?


[SIZE=small]Luke 2:1
“And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that ALL[/SIZE] the world should be taxed.”

[SIZE=small]Tell me something - did Caesar tax the people from China and India and South Africa? How could he when he did not even control the whole world?[/SIZE]


[SIZE=small]Matthew 2:3
“When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and ALL[/SIZE] Jerusalem with him”

[SIZE=small]Was every single person in Jerusalem troubled along with Herod??[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=small]Matthew 26:56
“ … Then ALL[/SIZE] the disciples left him [Jesus] and fled.”

[SIZE=small]Ummm, “ALL” the disciples weren’t even there.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Don't be so cocky and confident that ALL always means everybody.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small] [/SIZE]

 

[101G]

I would like to address the Mother of God thing.

Secondly, Mary is the mother of GOD. Jesus is both fully human and fully divine and these two natures cannot be separated.

Hold it, I'm not saying you're right or wrong. but consider this. Mary is not the mother of God, meaning the Spirit, no, she's the mother of the flesh, blood and bones that the Spirit diversified himself in and lived, and walked upon this earth. Mary is the Mother of the Christ, not God the Spirit. for that child got his name by inheritance. he was given the name of God, or the Spirit, which is "Jesus". this child this son, is the diversity of the eternal Spirit. well then, I must be in heresy, because, according to, and I quote, "This is the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union, which was declared at the Council of Ephesus in 431. To say Mary gave birth only to Jesus’ human nature is to misunderstand this doctrine and speak heresy". well lets see if this is true according to the scriptures, 2 Corinthians 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation". if God was in Christ what is that telling us?. that Christ is not the Spirit. and now this, 1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory". now what is this telling us?. if God manifested in flesh that means that the flesh is not God. for the scriptures plainly states, John 4:24a "God is a Spirit". what did that flesh and blood manifested? the Spirit. lets put this to the test. is the son of God the same as the son of man, yes or no?.

and as for the, "two natures cannot be separated".
Another doctrine declared at Ephesus was one concerning Mary. This is the doctrine of Theotokos (God-bearer). This decree was actually proclaimed in order to define the nature of our Lord Jesus even more so than it was to proclaim Mary’s role. It was to defeat the Nestorian Heresy, which held that Jesus was not divine, but merely human and that God only dwelt in Him as in a temple - and therein
lies the heresy.

well lets see according to the scriptures. John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up". question who is the "I" speaking here, Christ or the Spirit?. which one.

Mary gave birth not simply to a human being but to a divine person who united to himself a human and divine nature.
No, Mary gave birth to flesh and blood, just like any other woman, and in that flesh and blood is the diversity of God.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

I would like to address the Mother of God thing.

Secondly, Mary is the mother of GOD. Jesus is both fully human and fully divine and these two natures cannot be separated.

Hold it, I'm not saying you're right or wrong. but consider this. Mary is not the mother of God, meaning the Spirit, no, she's the mother of the flesh, blood and bones that the Spirit diversified himself in and lived, and walked upon this earth. Mary is the Mother of the Christ, not God the Spirit. for that child got his name by inheritance. he was given the name of God, or the Spirit, which is "Jesus". this child this son, is the diversity of the eternal Spirit. well then, I must be in heresy, because, according to, and I quote, "This is the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union, which was declared at the Council of Ephesus in 431. To say Mary gave birth only to Jesus’ human nature is to misunderstand this doctrine and speak heresy". well lets see if this is true according to the scriptures, 2 Corinthians 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation". if God was in Christ what is that telling us?. that Christ is not the Spirit. and now this, 1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory". now what is this telling us?. if God manifested in flesh that means that the flesh is not God. for the scriptures plainly states, John 4:24a "God is a Spirit". what did that flesh and blood manifested? the Spirit. lets put this to the test. is the son of God the same as the son of man, yes or no?.

and as for the, "two natures cannot be separated".
Another doctrine declared at Ephesus was one concerning Mary. This is the doctrine of Theotokos (God-bearer). This decree was actually proclaimed in order to define the nature of our Lord Jesus even more so than it was to proclaim Mary’s role. It was to defeat the Nestorian Heresy, which held that Jesus was not divine, but merely human and that God only dwelt in Him as in a temple - and therein
lies the heresy.

well lets see according to the scriptures. John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up". question who is the "I" speaking here, Christ or the Spirit?. which one.
Mary gave birth not simply to a human being but to a divine person who united to himself a human and divine nature.
No, Mary gave birth to flesh and blood, just like any other woman, and in that flesh and blood is the diversity of God.

The "Diversity" of God?
What you are espousing is heresy - plain and simple.

NOBODY is saying that Mary is the Mother of the Father or the Holy Spirit. She is the mother of Jesus, the Son, who unites to Himself 2 natures that cannot be separated. He is FULLY Human and FULLY divine. This doctrine is as basic as the doctrine of the Trinity in Christianity.
Nobody can claim to be a Christian and deny the deity of Jesus Christ.

Virtually every single heresy is based on the misconception of the nature of God.

 

[101G]

NOBODY is saying that Mary is the Mother of the Father or the Holy Spirit. She is the mother of Jesus, the Son, who unites to Himself 2 natures that cannot be separated. He is FULLY Human and FULLY divine. This doctrine is as basic as the doctrine of the Trinity in Christianity.
nobody.

She is the mother of Jesus, the Son?. is the Son God yes or no?. scripture, Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom". two things, #1 is this spoke present tense or prophecy. and two is the Son here GOD?
again I ask, who is this Son, Son of God or the Son of Man? which one

 

[ChurchAuthority]

NOBODY is saying that Mary is the Mother of the Father or the Holy Spirit. She is the mother of Jesus, the Son, who unites to Himself 2 natures that cannot be separated. He is FULLY Human and FULLY divine. This doctrine is as basic as the doctrine of the Trinity in Christianity.
nobody.

She is the mother of Jesus, the Son?. is the Son God yes or no?. scripture, Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom". two things, #1 is this spoke present tense or prophecy. and two is the Son here GOD?
again I ask, who is this Son, Son of God or the Son of Man? which one

Jesus is the Son of God.
Jesus is the 2nd Person in the Triune Godhead.
Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.
Before the Incarnation, Jesus was Spirit. AFTER the Incarnation, Jesus was BOTH God and Man.

Mary is the Mother of Jesus, who is 100% God and 100% man. To deny this fact is to deny the very nature of God and that is exactly what was addressed at the Council of Ephesus in 431 with the Nestorian Heresy..

 

[Mungo]

101G,

Here is a scripture based understanding,

Jesus Christ is the Word, the second person of the Trinity.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (Jn 1:1)

He assumed human nature (came in the flesh)

“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (Jn 1:14)

Where did the Word become flesh? In the womb of Mary

“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.” (Lk 1:31).

“God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law” (Gal 4:4).
Mary was the mother of that son. The Word that became flesh, the second Person of the Trinity in human form, though still divine.

“who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.” (Phil 2:6-8)

In Lk 1:43 Elizabeth says (while “filled with the Holy Spirit”) And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord (kuriou) should come to me? Several times in chapter 1 Luke uses kurios for God (indeed Mary herself does in verse 38). So Elizabeth calling Mary The mother of my Lord is calling her the mother of my God.

 

[101G]

2 ChurchAuthority,
I believe we need to re-examine this doctrine of the Godhead.

#1. Jesus is the Son of God.
correction, Jesus the Christ is the Son of God. scripture, Matthew 16:16 "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". notice the apostle Peter said thou art the "Christ", he is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. not thou art the "Son".

#2. Jesus is the 2nd Person in the Triune Godhead.
correction, there is no other person in the Godhead but one. scripture, Isaiah 45:21 "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me". and, Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour". me is singular, not three.
now if you make Jesus the Christ the second person of the Godhead, then he's no Saviour. he is the only Saviour.

#3. Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.
correction, Jesus is 100% Spirit, manifested in a 100% body of flesh and blood.

#4. Before the Incarnation, Jesus was Spirit. AFTER the Incarnation, Jesus was BOTH God and Man.
Correction, before, during, and after, he is Spirit. do you not know that Jesus is the Spirit, and the title Christ is the work of the Spirit in Flesh and blood. Christ is only a title.

now my question, is not Jesus the Holy Spirit. and the Holy Spirit in Flesh and Blood is called Christ?. scripture, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever". is this "Another the same one?. Yes or No?.

ok lets cut through the chase and get to the heart of the matter.
“God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law” (Gal 4:4).
Mary was the mother of that son. The Word that became flesh, the second Person of the Trinity in human form, though still divine.

ok lets see who came, scripture, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you". so I ask, who came?.

after we answer this, then we'll get to Phil 2:6-8.


2 ChurchAuthority

you never answered the question, is the Son of God, and the Son of Man the same? y/n?.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

2 ChurchAuthority,
I believe we need to re-examine this doctrine of the Godhead.

#1. Jesus is the Son of God.
correction, Jesus the Christ is the Son of God. scripture, Matthew 16:16 "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". notice the apostle Peter said thou art the "Christ", he is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. not thou art the "Son".

#2. Jesus is the 2nd Person in the Triune Godhead.
correction, there is no other person in the Godhead but one. scripture, Isaiah 45:21 "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me". and, Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour". me is singular, not three.
now if you make Jesus the Christ the second person of the Godhead, then he's no Saviour. he is the only Saviour.

#3. Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.
correction, Jesus is 100% Spirit, manifested in a 100% body of flesh and blood.

#4. Before the Incarnation, Jesus was Spirit. AFTER the Incarnation, Jesus was BOTH God and Man.
Correction, before, during, and after, he is Spirit. do you not know that Jesus is the Spirit, and the title Christ is the work of the Spirit in Flesh and blood. Christ is only a title.

now my question, is not Jesus the Holy Spirit. and the Holy Spirit in Flesh and Blood is called Christ?. scripture, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever". is this "Another the same one?. Yes or No?.


ok lets cut through the chase and get to the heart of the matter.
“God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law” (Gal 4:4).
Mary was the mother of that son. The Word that became flesh, the second Person of the Trinity in human form, though still divine.
ok lets see who came, scripture, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you". so I ask, who came?.

after we answer this, then we'll get to Phil 2:6-8.

2 ChurchAuthority
you never answered the question, is the Son of God, and the Son of Man the same? y/n?.

So much heresy here, it's difficult to know where to begin.

Can I ask what religious tradition you come from (denomination, etc)? You have some pretty bizarre beliefs - and they certainly aren't Christian beliefs.

What I explained about the nature of God is pretty much universally believed by ALL Christians - Catholic and Protestant. Those who deny the deity of Christ and the Triune Godhead are not considered to be Christians. To answer your question - NO, Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. the Holy Spirit is a distinct person in the Godheas as are the Father and the Son.

Finally, Jesus is referred to as BOTH the Son of Gos and the Sone of Man - because He is BOTH.

Gen 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness."

 

[101G]

2 ChurchAuthority
So much heresy here, it's difficult to know where to begin.
lets start at the beginning since you posted Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness." is this one or two, or three person. no, only one, scripture, since we are in Genesis, 5:1 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.", now how many is "he", in these verses? only one. (smile). one day we must discuss this in full detail.

Can I ask what religious tradition you come from (denomination, etc)? You have some pretty bizarre beliefs - and they certainly aren't Christian beliefs.
sure, I'm HOLY, not as some claim, HOLINESS. no I'm Holy just as the Bible say to be 1 Peter 1:16.

What I explained about the nature of God is pretty much universally believed by ALL Christians - Catholic and Protestant. Those who deny the deity of Christ and the Triune Godhead are not considered to be Christians. To answer your question - NO, Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. the Holy Spirit is a distinct person in the Godheas as are the Father and the Son.
well it might be universal to many, but not all. and our Lord is the Holy Spirit. see John 14:16, just for starters.

Finally, Jesus is referred to as BOTH the Son of God and the Sone of Man - because He is BOTH.
well let see according to scripture. who was crucified?. answer, the son of Man, if the son of God was crucified state scripture. and who rose?, answer Son Man, else produce scripture that the son of God rose. and who came from heaven?, son of Man or the son of God, I say the son of Man. if the Son of God came from Heaven state scripture.