Was Pharaoh under the sovereign control of God?

[shnarkle]

You did post in post #68 "It's ironic that so many people don't notice God's own description of himself as one who reaps where he hasn't sown..."

Are you making God a hard man by saying God reaps what He has not sown?

How do you get this:

I do not agree that God is hard man in reaping what He has not sown.

from this:

the point is that God reaps where he hasn't sown, and if you're going to follow God, you're going to have to learn how to do that instead of working your tail off for the rest of your life and getting NOTHING in return. Blow off false work and slack off. That's the message. Life is not meant to be immersed in pointless toil. Life is a gift to be enjoyed in, with, and through God which can only result in an overabundance of God's gifts, blessings, fruit, etc.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Ernest T. Bass,
ETB,
thanks for trying to work through this passage, let's look at what you have done;

In that context, God is not making a contrast between the 'regenerate" versus the "unregenerate" but is contrasting man's understanding verses God's understanding.

Ok, this is a contrast of the saved and unsaved persons,agreed

1 Corinthians 2:11 you do not know what is in my mind unless I reveal it to you. Nor do I know what is in your mind unless you tell me. You nor I know what is in the mind of God unless He reveals it to us.

And God did reveal His mind to us in that God selected certain men ("spiritual men") and miraculously endowed them with inspiration so those men could receive "words" (1 Corinthians 2:13) from the Holy Spirit, those inspired men were taught "words".

NO....1cor2:11-13 is speaking of believers in contrast to the unsaved. It is not unsaved people being given a way to understand.

Those inspired, spiritual men, as Paul, wrote those revealed, inspired words down so the natural man can read and understand them, Ephesians 3:3-4.

No...eph 3 is written to believers.

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

From the context we know that the natural man:

1) has no Divine, supernatural inspiration from the Holy Spirit to access the mind of God as the inspired writers did (spiritual men).
2) the natural man's knowledge is therefore limited to things of the world/wisdom of man

So the natural man here would be as those Greek philosophers, they had no Divine inspiration and their knowledge was limited to things of the world/wisdom of man.

Therefore when they hear the gospel, they judge it to be foolishness for they are judging it according to the wisdom of world/men.

okay;

Two points:

1) for them to judge the things of God as "foolishness" implies they had to first understand it to then pass judgment upon it. Therefore they are NOT totally depraved to the point to where they cannot understand it, but instead they DO UNDERSTAND it

No...they cannot correctly understand it at all, you are denying and explaining away the text.

Therefore 'regeneration' is not some miraculous act required by God to perform upon men to 'enable' men to understand, believe His word. [/QUOTE]

Salvation is all of God. Regeneration is the supernatural work of God
Until you understand this all your posts will be in vain as you resist directly the texts that you need. Ask God for mercy and to open your heart here.

[QUOTE]If such were the case, then how does God determine whom He will or will not "regenerate"?

The biblical God has infinite wisdom and knowledge. All Christians can trust Him to do what is right,gen 18:25

God would then become a 'respecter of persons' in "regenerating" one man but not another.

No, not at all. All men are sinners, God can save any person he desires to save. It is not that one man is better than another.

But regeneration takes place when one of his own will choose to submit to water baptism THEN one walks in newness of life, Romans 6:1-6

Romans 6 is not about water baptism, no one chooses to submit...

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I don't know why you keep assuming that I think "God is hard man". This is a Strawman argument. i even explained my meaning, but evidently this is irrelevant.

The one talent man is accusing God of causing him to bury his talent.

Is God a hard man in causing men to do things against their will?

Do you believe God caused Pharaoh to disobey against Pharaoh's will?

 

[Enoch111]

Romans 6 is not about water baptism, no one chooses to submit...

Why do people make such ridiculous statements? It is exactly about water baptism and its significance. It is only in water baptism that believers are metaphorically "buried in the likeness of His death" and raised to walk in newness of life.

And yes, everyone who is baptized chooses to submit to baptism.

 

[shnarkle]

The one talent man is accusing God of causing him to bury his talent.

Is God a hard man in causing men to do things against their will?

Do you believe God caused Pharaoh to disobey against Pharaoh's will?

No and no, but again as Paul points out one's free will is irrelevant. Rom.9:16

 

[shnarkle]

Ok, this is a contrast of the saved and unsaved persons,agreed

1 Corinthians 2:11 you do not know what is in my mind unless I reveal it to you. Nor do I know what is in your mind unless you tell me. You nor I know what is in the mind of God unless He reveals it to us.


NO....1cor2:11-13 is speaking of believers in contrast to the unsaved. It is not unsaved people being given a way to understand.



No...eph 3 is written to believers.

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Is it not possible to be a believer who doesn't understand? Is there no such thing as those who are seeking to understand their faith? I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that there are believers who range from those who continue to sin, and must continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins to those who are being conformed to the image of Christ, and therefore no longer can be under the penalty of the law.

 

[Enoch111]

...as Paul points out one's free will is irrelevant. Rom.9:16

Is that really what Paul says in Rom 9:16?

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Is this talking about man's free will or is it talking about God's sovereign grace? The answer is obvious. It is about the grace of God, and how He extends His grace, mercy, compassion, and loving kindness to undeserving sinners at His own discretion. What it is also telling us is that no one can earn or merit grace -- "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth".

And then we find this verse in Romans 11:32 -- For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[GodsGrace]

So He doesn’t remove a heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh?

Sure he does.
IF you agree to it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Is that really what Paul says in Rom 9:16?

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Is this talking about man's free will or is it talking about God's sovereign grace? The answer is obvious. It is about the grace of God, and how He extends His grace, mercy, compassion, and loving kindness to undeserving sinners at His own discretion. What it is also telling us is that no one can earn or merit grace -- "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth".

And then we find this verse in Romans 11:32 -- For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No and no, but again as Paul points out one's free will is irrelevant. Rom.9:16

So God caused the one talent man to bury his talent and in turn for God causing him to bury his talent God has him thrown into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.........….and this is not being hard?????


Romans 9:16 does not say man's free will is irrelevant. God showed mercy and grace to man through Christ whereby man could be save. Yet God showing that mercy to man was not the result of any "willing and running" on the part of man. But to receive God's mercy does require man's free will to chose to will (John 7:17; Revelation 22:17) and run (1 Corinthians 9:24; Hebrews 12:1)

 

[shnarkle]

So God caused the one talent man to bury his talent and in turn for God causing him to bury his talent God has him thrown into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.........….and this is not being hard?????

I guess if you prefer to ignore what I'm actually posting, I can do the same thing. So you think God is being hard?

Romans 9:16 does not say man's free will is irrelevant. God showed mercy and grace to man through Christ whereby man could be save. Yet God showing that mercy to man was not the result of any "willing and running" on the part of man.

It explicitly states man's free will and effort are useless. You're just contradicting yourself. Look at the texts themselves. Does Pharaoh know God? Does Pharaoh know the God of the children of Israel? If he did, he had a strange way of showing it, wouldn't you think? The text explicitly points out that he has to ask who this God is. If he has to ask, he obviously doesn't know. God has not revealed himself to Pharaoh, and without that revealtion, Pharaoh has no choice. He can't exercise his will to choose a god he doesn't know in the first place. This is why will and effort is irrelevant. It is only by the mercy of God that anyone can come to Christ in the first place, but most don't get that revelation. Your assumption is in assuming that God is unjust for doing this, and Paul's response to that assumption is "who are you to reply against God?"

Paul is not ignorant of the use of words, and he uses the word "election" for a very pertinent reason. Because that's what he means. He's pointing out that it doesn't matter what your will is, or how much you want something, it depends completely and exclusively on God's promise, and his election.

No one, not you or anyone else can thwart God's sovereign will. Nothing you say or do can change the slightest detail of God's plan.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I guess if you prefer to ignore what I'm actually posting, I can do the same thing. So you think God is being hard?

If God caused the one talent man to bury his talent then God punishes him for what God caused him to do then yes, that is being hard...unjust and unfairly hard

It explicitly states man's free will and effort are useless. You're just contradicting yourself. Look at the texts themselves. Does Pharaoh know God? Does Pharaoh know the God of the children of Israel? If he did, he had a strange way of showing it, wouldn't you think? The text explicitly points out that he has to ask who this God is. If he has to ask, he obviously doesn't know. God has not revealed himself to Pharaoh, and without that revealtion, Pharaoh has no choice. He can't exercise his will to choose a god he doesn't know in the first place. This is why will and effort is irrelevant. It is only by the mercy of God that anyone can come to Christ in the first place, but most don't get that revelation. Your assumption is in assuming that God is unjust for doing this, and Paul's response to that assumption is "who are you to reply against God?"

Paul is not ignorant of the use of words, and he uses the word "election" for a very pertinent reason. Because that's what he means. He's pointing out that it doesn't matter what your will is, or how much you want something, it depends completely and exclusively on God's promise, and his election.

No one, not you or anyone else can thwart God's sovereign will. Nothing you say or do can change the slightest detail of God's plan.

Man did nothing (no running or willing) that caused God to extend grace to man. Yet the Bible is very clear that for man to receive that grace requires willing and running on the part of man.



God through Moses commanded Pharaoh to let the people go and Pharaoh of his own free will disobeyed God... whether he knew God or not he disobeyed God of his own free will. No verse says God made Pharaoh to disobey against his will.

 

[shnarkle]

If God caused the one talent man to bury his talent then God punishes him for what God caused him to do then yes, that is being hard...unjust and unfairly hard





Man did nothing (no running or willing) that caused God to extend grace to man. Yet the Bible is very clear that for man to receive that grace requires willing and running on the part of man.



God through Moses commanded Pharaoh to let the people go and Pharaoh of his own free will disobeyed God... whether he knew God or not he disobeyed God of his own free will. No verse says God made Pharaoh to disobey against his will.

Pharaoh doesn't know Moses' God. Moses is a subject of Pharaoh. Of course, he's going to ignore Moses' request. It's idiotic. Pharaoh has no legitimate choice to entertain Moses' request.

You're still just repeating yourself. You're not advancing your argument.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Pharaoh doesn't know Moses' God. Moses is a subject of Pharaoh. Of course, he's going to ignore Moses' request. It's idiotic. Pharaoh has no legitimate choice to entertain Moses' request.

You're still just repeating yourself. You're not advancing your argument.

You continue to provide no evidence whatsoever that Pharaoh had no free will. His free will choice not to let the people go was based upon ignorance and pride. Had Pharaoh known Who God was he may have chosen to let the people go as had the Jews had known Jesus was the Messiah they would not have chosen to crucify Him (1 Corinthians 2:8). Whether a free will choice is based on ignorance or knowledge it still remains a free will choice. By Exodus 13:15-17 Pharaoh made the free will choice to let the people go based on knowledge of God's power over him.

 

[shnarkle]

You continue to provide no evidence whatsoever that Pharaoh had no free will.

And you continue to ignore what I'm posting. I never suggested for a second that Pharaoh has no free will. I'm pointing out that free will is useless, especially when it comes to salvation or thwarting God's sovereign will.

You can choose what is behind curtain number 1, 2, or 3, but unless and until you know what it behind each of those curtains, your choices are left to chance. However, this doesn't negate the fact that someone knows what is behind curtain number 1, 2, and 3. That knowledge doesn't negate one's free will. It also doesn't negate the fact that knowing what is behind those curtains also necessarily means one knows what will happen when one of those choices is chosen.

You assume these are mutually exclusive propositions when they clearly aren't.

This is a fundamental feature of Paul's argument. He is pointing out that if will was enough to save us, we wouldn't need a savior. Will and effort simply aren't enough. They're useless.

You're essentially pointing out that when one picks curtain number 1, which reveals the Bugatti Veyron complete with beautiful women in bikinis on a beach in front of a multimillion dollar mansion in the Caribbean, they have to react to this revelation. Duh. Ya think? When curtains 2, and 3 are a can opener for a can of cold beans, and a hoop and stick, we know the reaction makes sense, but it's hardly anything this prize winner is going to claim as the direct result of his own will and effort. Yes, he's jumping up and down and running around the stage laughing hysterically is intentional, but it's also somewhat beyond his ability to control as well. It doesn't really matter because everyone else in the audience doesn't get to choose at all. They see the guy celebrating his good fortune, and they may want what he has as well, but unless or until they are in a position to choose what's behind the curtain, they'll never get that opportunity. Perhaps we all get that chance at some point in our lives, until that happens, there simply is no chance. You can't make a choice without being put in a position to make it in the first place.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

And you continue to ignore what I'm posting. I never suggested for a second that Pharaoh has no free will. I'm pointing out that free will is useless, especially when it comes to salvation or thwarting God's sovereign will.

You can choose what is behind curtain number 1, 2, or 3, but unless and until you know what it behind each of those curtains, your choices are left to chance. However, this doesn't negate the fact that someone knows what is behind curtain number 1, 2, and 3. That knowledge doesn't negate one's free will. It also doesn't negate the fact that knowing what is behind those curtains also necessarily means one knows what will happen when one of those choices is chosen.

You assume these are mutually exclusive propositions when they clearly aren't.

This is a fundamental feature of Paul's argument. He is pointing out that if will was enough to save us, we wouldn't need a savior. Will and effort simply aren't enough. They're useless.

You're essentially pointing out that when one picks curtain number 1, which reveals the Bugatti Veyron complete with beautiful women in bikinis on a beach in front of a multimillion dollar mansion in the Caribbean, they have to react to this revelation. Duh. Ya think? When curtains 2, and 3 are a can opener for a can of cold beans, and a hoop and stick, we know the reaction makes sense, but it's hardly anything this prize winner is going to claim as the direct result of his own will and effort. Yes, he's jumping up and down and running around the stage laughing hysterically is intentional, but it's also somewhat beyond his ability to control as well. It doesn't really matter because everyone else in the audience doesn't get to choose at all. They see the guy celebrating his good fortune, and they may want what he has as well, but unless or until they are in a position to choose what's behind the curtain, they'll never get that opportunity. Perhaps we all get that chance at some point in our lives, until that happens, there simply is no chance. You can't make a choice without being put in a position to make it in the first place.

I never argued that free will can thwart God's will. God's will with Pharaoh was to show His power in Pharaoh and magnify His name - Romans 9:17. If Pharaoh had obeyed, God would have accomplished His will with Pharaoh per Rom 9:17. Yet Pharaoh chose to disobey, God accomplished His will using Pharaoh's choice to disobey. Sine God has foreknowledge of how men will choose, God can use man's free will choice to accomplish his own will. Therefore man's free will choices do not thwart God's will.

Nowhere does Paul say man's free will alone can save. John 7:17 it takes man's will to know the will of God whereby then man can be saved by choosing to do the will of God.

THe rest of what you posted I cannot makes heads nor tails of what you are even talking about.

 

[shnarkle]

I never argued that free will can thwart God's will. God's will with Pharaoh was to show His power in Pharaoh and magnify His name - Romans 9:17. If Pharaoh had obeyed, God would have accomplished His will with Pharaoh per Rom 9:17. Yet Pharaoh chose to disobey, God accomplished His will using Pharaoh's choice to disobey. Sine God has foreknowledge of how men will choose, God can use man's free will choice to accomplish his own will. Therefore man's free will choices do not thwart God's will.

Nowhere does Paul say man's free will alone can save. John 7:17 it takes man's will to know the will of God whereby then man can be saved by choosing to do the will of God.

THe rest of what you posted I cannot makes heads nor tails of what you are even talking about.

Given that you're just repeating yourself, as well as much of what I've posted as well, it really doesn't matter.

 

[Taken]

Was Pharaoh under the sovereign control of God?
^ OP ^

Whether a person IS Against God of For God....the Soverign Power of God.....Controls what the mans spirit in his Heart shall receive FROM GOD.

Be an individual who Chooses to BE AGAINST GOD...
God gives that man a HARDENED HEART and REPROBATE MIND.

Be an individual who Chooses to BE WITH GOD...
God gives that man a NEW HEART WITH Gods Spirit of TRUTH and the MIND of such a man is up to the man to YEILD his Carnal MINDS THOUGHTS TO the Lords Spirit of Truth, in the mans New Heart.

There IS NO Spiritual POWER "OF" "ANY" Angel or "OF" "ANY" human man...
Except that that POWER is FROM God.

1 Cor 8:
[6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, OF whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, BY whom are all things, and we by him.

Glory to God,
Taken