We are judged by works, not by faith

[dad]

Only for those whose works are judged worthy of God in Christ Jesus.

That would be those covered in His blood, or saved as the common term today puts it. Not those who think their poop doesn't smell.

That's what the Bible calls dying in our sin. Peter was not a forgiven and saved Christian at that time. Neither was David a man after God's own heart when sinning with Bathsheba and having her Hittite husband killed.

I see. So God chose some evil person to fight Goliath and helped him? David's prayers were not heard while he was a young shepherd?

This is a pseudo-Paul of another gospel taught by wilfully sinning Christians. They want to justify themselves by accusing all others of being the same as they.

There were two Pauls now?

The Paul of the Bible was the chiefest example of how any man can be drawn of the Spirit and come to Jesus and be forgiven and delivered from all our past life. That included Saul of Tarsus who was the chiefest of persecutors of the church and wasters of the faith.

It includes all men on earth as well. We all can come to Jesus. This is news?

The Bible Paul as a converted believer and apostle of Jesus Christ, was not still a blaspheming, persecuting, and destroying enemy of the church as a converted Apostle of Jesus Christ.

No. Nor some perfect puritan.

"Paul called himself “chief of sinners” because he, like the tax collector, was acutely aware of his sinfulness and understood how much that sinfulness had cost his Savior. This self-identification is the discovery of every person whose eyes have been opened, whose conscience has been awakened, and whose heart has been pricked by the Holy Spirit. It is the humble posture of every believer who acknowledges he is utterly helpless and dependent on God for salvation (Romans 5:6). It is the admission we all must make: “Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the chief.”"

What does it mean that Paul was the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15)? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that Paul was the chief of sinners? What is the meaning of 1 Timothy 1:15? Was Paul really the worst sinner?

www.gotquestions.org

If your idea were correct Paul would have said 'I WAS the chief of sinners'

I just plainly say what others are teaching without the pretty speeches and doctrinal garnish.

Why say it to me? Address the issues raised in discussion here, rather than to some supposed 'others'

 

[dad]

Christians teaching they are not judged and condemned for their sinful works with unbelievers doing the same things, are teaching a hypocritical and unjust judge.

For by grace are we saved, and that NOT of OURSELVES, it is the gift of God. I see nothing unjust or hypocritical about the way Jesus saves us

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

If people willing sin after really being saved, of course Jesus deals with them. In that situation the judgment is not about salvation though. David told us that the judgments of the Lord are better than gold and to be desired more than gold! His dealing with us a son is PART of being saved!

Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God... Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

We should make a difference between people like the phony Pharisees who boasted being of God, and the actually saved folks who sincerely came to Jesus! The verse above seems directed at the religious phonies not the saved.

There are many Christian sinners, as well as some that teach being a Christian sinner.

Some Christian sinners?? Ha Except you, right?

Their gospel is for willful sinners and full of sinning. And they never ever preach the Bible gospel of being pure hearted, holy, and blameless in all manner of our lives.

Jesus comes in when we are saved and works on us from the inside. That is how our hearts become pure! As a result we also have works. Not a pure heart because we work! Sorry you once again have it backwards.
So really, THAT is what you need to deal with.

 

[dad]

I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Bible worthiness is how we walk, not just what we think about ourselves.

Those walking after the Spirit holy and blameless are worthy to walk in white with God. Those walking after the flesh defiling themselves are not.

Indeed we should walk worthy of the great gift we have received. That does not mean walk fearfully thinking He may take back His gift at the first mistake!

 

[dad]

Which is by deeds.

Absolutely false. Salvation is clearly not by deeds that we have done. It is the gift of God, that He paid for and gave.

The Bible judges deeds. The faith alone gospel says nothing of deeds.

Jesus has wonderful judgments for His people. Not to be feared but cherished. The judgment for the unsaved is another matter. Those who know Him do not conflate the two.
Maybe this little math formula might help you

sheep ≠ goats

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Jesus is the Light. Coming to the light is getting saved. That is what He is talking about here. Not after.

John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved
Once we get saved (come to the Light) He reproves as needed and cleanses etc etc

It is not that we work our way, real hard, to the light!

 

[Ghada]

So our salvation is based on how we judge God? And we judge God on how many works he does and what type?
So for this reason. God judged us on our works?

When you want to be serious, I'll be glad to hear.

God said our works are as bloody rags.. there are non righteous no not one

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

You're quoting the verses about those who do not even believe there is a God. You're applying the status of unbelievers to yourself. I don't doubt you still live filthy, and aren't doing the righteousness of God, since you say so.

God never says His own people who He justifies are abominable filthy children of the devil.

If that is what your gospel preaches about yourself, then so be it, but it's not the Bible gospel of Jesus Christ.

the penalty of sin is death. Not doing good.

True. The Bible says that when anyone is sinning against God, and not doing good, he is not born of God nor justified by God.

Since you are still living filthy in sin and not doing good, then you need to repent and believe the Bible gospel of Jesus Christ from the heart. Then you will know what His pure and perfect conversion into a newborn and holy babe is like. You will for the first time know what it is to have all things now new and of God and walk in in His light blamelessly.

Not doing works of the church, Not being baptized or tithing. It is death.

If you mean social works by works of the church, then I that's not the Bible work of the church and body of Christ.

Tithing is OT law to support the Levitical priesthood. All born Christians are now the priesthood of God, with some called into His ministry to be supported by free will offerings of the hearers.

the only thing that can redeem us from our sin debt is blood. the cross.

True. But if we are still living in filthy rags, then Jesus' blood has not washed us purely and wholly clean, nor are we walking with Him.

Some Christians preach a gospel of their sins only being covered as by blood of bulls and goats in the OT. They say things like God can't see them sinning anymore, and so can't judge and condemn their sins with the world. A blind god unjust judge is not the true God Jesus Christ.

Anything other than the cross is a false gospel. it is trusting in self. not in God.

True. Some Christians trust in their own faith alone, and think by their doctrine, they can resurrect themselves from the grave unto life. Their doctrinal salvation by their own faith may be a good life in this world, but it ends in the grave.

Only those enduring temptation in the end, and faithfully doing good with Jesus, will be rewarded with the inheritance of resurrection unto life.

 

[Ghada]

Bear in mind, however, that the Bible makes a distinction

Can you list a few examples of "works" as you understand them? What are we talking about here?

All things of God are defined by Him in the Bible.

In the Bible, works of man include our thoughts and intents of the heart, which Jesus calls the first works, our words, and our deeds.

What is good and justified with God in the Bible today, is anything done by the faith of Jesus from a pure heart.

All other works of man are either self-righteous filthy rags, or unrighteous works of the flesh. These are also listed in the Bible, just in case anyone doing them has any doubt about being a friend of the world and enemy of God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

All things of God are defined by Him in the Bible.

In the Bible, works of man include our thoughts and intents of the heart, which Jesus calls the first works, our words, and our deeds.

What is good and justified with God in the Bible today, is anything done by the faith of Jesus from a pure heart.

All other works of man are either self-righteous filthy rags, or unrighteous works of the flesh. These are also listed in the Bible, just in case anyone doing them has any doubt about being a friend of the world and enemy of God.

In a general sense, a "work" refers to any task that requires effort or energy. Thus our thoughts and intentions are not considered "works". On the other hand, a "good" work is any action that benefits others. For instance, Jesus mentioned three specific "works" that are considered worthy of eternal life. These include giving a glass of water to one of his disciples, visiting a disciple in prison, and providing clothing to a naked disciple. Do these examples align with your understanding of good works?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I agree.

I posed the inquiry as I am aware that different Christian denominations hold varying viewpoints on the matter. For instance, Catholics believe that salvation is attained by grace, which can only be received through the sacraments. On the other hand, some Christians propose that engaging in charitable activities such as feeding the impoverished and aiding the homeless is what guarantees salvation. While I personally do not subscribe to the former belief, I acknowledge that others do.

I was hoping that @Ghada would answer so that I might understand what is at stake for Ghada. What is the story behind this thread?

Not sure what is the story. I cannot know the intnent of why people start a thread unless they declare it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

When you want to be serious, I'll be glad to hear.

You’re not serious yourself. Or if you are. Your serious about the wrong things.

You also will not hear.. I think that has been established

 

[MatthewG]

@Ghada,

Did you ever check out those mentions, think it was Romans 12, John 15, Colossians 3, and perhaps Titus?

 

[Ghada]

For salvation, all who come to Him are accepted. How is that respect of persons?

Normal adults understand the corrupt justice system that excuses certain favored people, while condemning others that do the same things.

Your ideological faith alone blinds you to simple reasoning.

How is it any answer to talk about how God is not a respecter of persons, as if He makes no difference between the wicked and His children??

He doesn't. He judges us by our works as being the children of the devil or His righteous sons.

There you go again. Strawman and dishonest and made up accusation that has no connection to the verses discussed.

I only repeat what others say. Your doctrine blinds you to what an unjust judge is.

 

[Ghada]

Not even close. Mockers in the end mock the bible and God and His people etc.

Etc... includes His righteousness, and His people daily living holy and blamelessly before Him in all our manners of life. (1 Peter 1:13-17)

That means what? If we go to your church and accept that the saved are not really saved at all and that you are sinless and pure, then we are not making it a cart? Do be clear.

I have been clear. It's just not possible to make some see it clearly, who mocks being sinless and pure like Jesus. They are the ones that change what is clear into something worth mocking. That's the device they use to mock the pure, sinless, and holy things of God.

It does not mean that only the little sister that gave her doll to the neigbor and had her room extra clean was family!

Now mocking good little sisters. You really do resent the good ones. You talk like those who call Jesus lovers, little do gooders.

He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

This includes good little sisters.

 

[ButterflyJones]

We are judged by both. However, we are not saved by performing good deeds. Our good deeds are evidence we are saved by God's grace.

 

[Ghada]

You seem to attempt to cast most believers into hell

You're the one declaring not just most, but all believers are living by filthy rags and acting like garbage.

That's not the Bible gospel that declares there will always be a righteous remnant of God on earth.

because you imagine that their works somehow don't compare to what you imagine yours were.

Once again, you have this backward. You're the one that judges and compares everyone else by your own works, not me. I only rebuke you for doing so.

You don't believe any Christian is living holy and righteous altogether, because neither you nor your favorite Christian friends are doing so.

That does not mean that the sincere believers in Canada (or elsewhere) are 'garbage eaters'!

Then stop saying saved Christians are living like garbage. I don't. I teach that all justified Christians are born of God and not sinning against Him.

I also say those who accuse all Christians of still sinning like themselves, are false accusers, because they judge all Christians by their own sinful standard.

One minute you try to cast most saved believers into hellfire, and the next you are calling the vile names.

And yet, when I disagree with your filthy and garbage-like descriptions of yourself and other fellow Christians, you get all pouty about it.

Make up your mind. Either preach the gospel of righteousness from the Bible, or expect blow back for preaching another gospel of filthy rags and garbage eating Christians, as though as though they are justified by Christ.

I stand in defence of the Bible gospel.

We see what comes out of your mouth.

I only repeat things said to me, but without the humble act.

There are Christian gospels that make hell less hot, and sin less sinful.

You seem to be completely contorting things to try and make it sound like those rejecting Jesus are some sort of weird fornicators without even the sense to do it right.

I do not preach that all unbelievers are wicked filthy doers of evil. There are many unbelievers, that are neighborly, lawful citizens, and do good to provide for their own.

I do not preach against them. I only defend the gospel against some believers, that confess and teach being justified while living worse than some unbelievers.

I think the context of the verse about some people tasting of what being a believer is all about, and feasting with us, and hearing some things about heaven

Of course you do. Anything solid in the Bible about being unjustified by dead works, is made mushy to justify believers doing dead works.

etc and deciding to go back and reject it all rather than really come to Jesus in their heart and be saved.

I no longer waste time arguing whether someone was saved and is not saved now.

The only thing that matters now is how we are living today. We are either living holy and without blame before Jesus in the love of God, or we are living unrighteously without Jesus nor His love in our hearts.

Those who say they are living the latter, while also being the former by their own faith alone, are the ones I defend the Bible against.

You trying to apply that to believers who love God and trust His salvation and hope in Him shows a stark lack of comprehension of the verses you cite.

I cite those that teach against them. They instead teach justifying the unrighteous through their gospel of faith alone.

No believers who love God with a whole heart do such things. Only the double at heart fall into such things from time to time. The believers with a seared conscience do them anytime they please.

I was once a Christian that fell into fornication, because of my double heartedness, but I never excused nor justified myself like other Christians I have known. They fornicated whenever they had the chance, because they believed themselves already forgiven and saved.

They of course cite the Christian gospel of being saved by faith only, without any works having to do with it. And they further cite the doctrine of being already saved and forgiven of all sinful deeds past, present, and future. I know you preach the former, but do you also teach the latter?

His will is believing of Him God sent. That makes some in a family believers and family of God! So who is my brother and mother and sister? The saved. Those that did what He asked.

You just cannot bring yourself to say what Jesus says.

For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Those doing His will are His family. The closest you can ever come to preaching works, is by changing the meaning of doing into believing only.

If believing only is works we do in obedience to God, then you contradict your gospel of being saved by faith only without works. You need to make up your mind what to preach. We are either saved and justified by faith with works, or by faith only without works.

Trying to have it both ways, shows a convicted conscience that doesn't really believe what you are teaching. Now you want to teach a 3rd gospel of being saved and justified by faith only with the works of believing.

Say what!? Post the quote where I said that!? Wow. Thanks for showing where you are at here. Making stuff up whole of cloth and falsely accusing people. Weird.

You look it up. They're your words. You are not a person that I waste any time on by researching and citing your own words. It would do no good, because you are the sort of person who would find a way to say you didn't mean what you said. You would probably say you didn't mean you are actually living filthy, when you claimed your works were filthy rags.

Now, If you want to confess none of your works today are filthy rags, and that you are not doing sinful works of the flesh, then I will believe you. Then you can also stop preaching a gospel that says all Christians still have filthy rags and garbage works in their lives.

 

[Ghada]

After what? Your sinless church?

There is only one sinless church on earth, and that is Jesus' church and body. Those loving and obeying Him to go and sin no more, are only members of His body, not the Head Himself.

People who sincerely come to Jesus have repented. We go by His standards, thank you very much.

This is Bible truth. And our works will show our repentance is worthy of Christ in deed and in truth. (Luke 3:8)

Some Christians skip 'repent' and just believe. Others preach repentance of some but not all dead works. The only Christians justified by Christ, are them repenting of all dead works, but not doing any of them.

Bible repentance is not just a change of mind about sin, but of deeds without sinning.

The nation turned away. That does not mean sincere believers in that nation did. He never forsook any of them! Not ever.

Correct. Those not walking after the flesh with sinful nations, are not judged with the sinners of nations.

Posters here said it did??

Doctrinally yes. They say they are saved with a clean soul by faith alone, including while doing sinful works of the flesh. It's the gospel of being forgiven and saved by faith alone, while still doing sinful things.

2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
The saved escape the corruption in the world.

True Bible again. The justified in Christ Jesus are neither lusting for the world in their hearts, nor doing the world's works of the flesh.

Those lusting in the heart and doing unrighteousness with the world, are not the purified and justified in Christ Jesus. They are enemies of God. (James 4)

They are not His people who have been saved.

True Bible again. Those doing unrighteous works of the flesh are not born of God, nor are saved, nor have seen His gospel truth to do it. (3 John 1)

In other words most of the world will show their true colors more and more and make their decisions clearly whose side they are on. The harvest in other words is ripe! The good wheat is clear, and the weeds and tares are grown and easy to see.

True Bible again. We are known by are actions. Jesus commands us to make our life all good or all evil, because the lukewarm doing both good and evil are spued out.

You had posted this
"The chastisement of God upon the world for sinning, is death and separation from God, beginning with Adam and continuing with all men that are sinning. (Gen 2) (Ezek 18:4)(Rom 5:12, 6:23)"

I pointed out how the wrath of God rests on those without Jesus, not us.

True. All those doing unrighteousness are without Jesus, and the judgement and wrath of God is upon their works.

The gospel of being with Jesus while sinning with the devil, is not the Bible.

 

[Ghada]

We are judged by both.

If we are not justified by works judged as righteous by God, then His judgment is made mute and meaningless.

However, we are not saved by performing good deeds.

Nor are not saved by doing evil deeds. No man is saved by any deeds we have done before Christ, whether good or evil. (Titus 3:5)

The question is, are we saved while doing good? And are we saved while doing evil?

What do you say?

Our good deeds are evidence we are saved by God's grace.

And what are sinful deeds evidence of?

 

[Ghada]

@Ghada,

Did you ever check out those mentions, think it was Romans 12, John 15, Colossians 3, and perhaps Titus?

I didn't see them. What about them. You can copy and paste from before if you want.

 

[ButterflyJones]

If we are not justified by works judged as righteous by God, then His judgment is made mute and meaningless.



Nor are not saved by doing evil deeds. No man is saved by any deeds we have done before Christ, whether good or evil. (Titus 3:5)

The question is, are we saved while doing good? And are we saved while doing evil?

If we knowingly commit evil acts , we are not in Christ. And have never known him. As God tells us.

What do you say?




And what are sinful deeds evidence of?

Sin is not a thing. Sin is the act of disappointing God and his rules. We are not perfect. We are forgiven for our mistakes.

 

[Ghada]

Well then we will let God judge between us who is preaching the gospel of salvation and who is preaching another gospel.

True. I'll paraphrase James 2:

You have your doctrine of being saved by your own faith alone, without your works.

I have my doctrine of being justified by my faith with my works.

Jesus is my righteousness. And because He has made me righteous, I can do works of righeousness.

So long as we are doing them we are.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Only the faith without works gospel would preach He is our righteousness and we are made righteous as He, while doing unrighteousness of the devil.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever is doing unrighteousness is not of God,

But then we've seen how you really don't believe your own teaching of salvation being by faith alone apart from our works.

Afterall, you judge all believing Christians as saved or not, based upon their ministerial works of agreeing with you or not.

Some Christians like teaching having faith without works, because it soothes their conscience when they sin again. I've sinned again, but I've never been tempted to believe I was justified by Christ while doing so.

But you're heart really isn't in that doctrine, because you jettison it whenever someone pricks your conscience by preaching righteousness at all times.

At that point, you're all too eager to judge a believing Christian's salvation by their works.

You now preach we are all saved by faith apart from works, until those works offend us ministerially. There is some truth in that from 1 Cor 3; however, it's not so extreme as you preach it. If we refuse all ministerial disagreement as personally offensive, then how can we ever be corrected in righteousness?

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

 

[MatthewG]

While people may freely choose and believe what they want to.

It all boils down to a personal relationship with God, and you.

It's not a collective effort - like it was in the first century - and the first church bride stuck together waiting for the return of Christ in their day.

I posted these on the wrong one but here are the quotes, to some of the questions you were asking about @Ghada.

Paul writes in Romans 10 concerning Israel in its state at the time, for his brothers he said:

The Word Brings Salvation
(Isaiah 65:1–16)
Romans 10
1Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is for their salvation. 2For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. 3 Because they were ignorant of God’s righteousness and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law, to bring righteousness to everyone who believes.​

No, I don't think it is him using our body without our will.

It's more that one has to be willingly to not engage the flesh but engage the spirit when they are born again.

Paul writes to the Galatians whom were trying to do things by the flesh - with the LAW, that it is by the Spirit that one should walk - if you are lead by it.

You also have Paul write to the people in Colossae,

Saying:​

Ghada, these are wonderful questions and I really do believe it is all about abiding in Christ,

This is just some of John 15 - there is more

At the end of the day, the work of God is to believe the one whom God had sent, its individualistic and not group @Ghada - it's all personal and not a group effort it, people have to choose to follow after God or not it's there choice and it's a personal relationship - while there can be teachers and people who governing over things in their lives - the personal relationship is between you and God.

​

And that work that God does in an individual who allows him to work on their heart and minds,

​

The work always leads to goodness and right things done by the spirit, and produces agape love,

​