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WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS...WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Grailhunter, Apr 17, 2021.

  1. Daniel Veler

    Daniel Veler Active Member

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    Tong I will explain eternal life and what it is and when a person receives it. It is written in John the following: “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
    Eternal life is being brought into a personal relationship between The Father and The Son. Now the apostle didn’t understand how this would be made possible so he asked Christ the following.
    “Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.” Abode means home. They reveal themselves to us in our heart. Where we know them and they know us. This is eternal life. When do we receive this relationship. The moment we receive his Holy Spirit living in us. This is why you see Christ saying to some “Depart from me I never knew you” the kingdom of Heaven is the same. If you have not received it before death you will not receive it afterwards. For the kingdom is within you. A lot of people define eternal life as to live forever after death. That just isn’t the case. Both the lost and saved live forever. One group with God. The other group in the Lake of Fire.
     
  2. Daniel Veler

    Daniel Veler Active Member

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    There are two thoughts about the book of life. The first are those who teach your name is entered upon the receipt of your salvation. The second are those who believe your name has always been there and blotted out should you die lost.

    Let me show you how the Lord taught me the meaning of the Book of Life.

    It all began one night when I was a young Christian. We would hold bible studies during our lunch break, at work. It was during one of these studies, a preacher asked this question; We know and believe that our names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life when we were saved. We also know, at the Great White Throne judgment only those whose names are, in the book of life, are the only ones that will go to the New Heaven and Earth.

    As it is written;

    “And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, neither whatsoever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life”.

    He went on to say that anyone who is not found written not the book is cast into the Lake of Fire.

    As it is written;

    “Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was hurled into the lake of fire”.

    The preacher went on to ask: So what happens to the still born, children never reaching the age of reasoning or those that are incapable of reasoning, what happens to them? How do they get their name written in the Book”?

    No one could answer him. You see we all had been taught your name Is written upon the reciept of salvation.

    I left the study with sorrow in my heart because I wasn't sure anymore, how the names are entered into the book of life. Which thought was right or wrong? I thought to myself; I know my Father is just. I could not believe that He would cast the unborn children or those who have never come to understanding into Hell.

    I was told that GOD would provide for those unborn and the ones never reaching the age of reasoning and I just excepted that teaching. But now I was t sure anymore.

    I begin to pray, asking for understanding.

    The Father began opening my thoughts to His scriptures.

    The first thing that came to my remembrance was the story of David and his child, whom the Father took from him, because of his sin. So, I went to the scriptures that spoke of this event and something caught my attention.

    The LORD caused the son of David and Bathsheba, Uriah’s widow, to become very sick. David prayed to God for the baby not to die. David fasted and went into his house and stayed there, lying on the ground all night, trying to convince GOD not to take his son. The elders of David’s family came to him and tried to pull him up from the ground, but David refused to get up or to eat any food.

    Listen to what happened;

    “On the seventh day the baby died. David’s servants were afraid to tell him that the baby was dead. They said, Look, we tried to talk to David while the baby was alive, but he refused to listen to us. If we tell him the baby is dead, he may do something awful. When David saw his servants whispering, he knew that the baby was dead. So he asked them, Is the baby dead?” They answered, “Yes, he is dead”. Then David got up from the floor, washed himself, put lotions on, and changed his clothes. Then he went into the LORD’s house to worship. After that, he went home and asked for something to eat. His servants gave him some food, and he ate. David’s servants said to him, Why are you doing this? When the baby was still alive, you fasted and you cried. Now that the baby is dead, you get up and eat food. David said, “While the baby was still alive, I fasted, and I cried. I thought, Who knows? Maybe the LORD will feel sorry for me and let the baby live. But now that the baby is dead, why should I fast? I can’t bring him back to life. Someday I will go to him, but he cannot come back to me”.

    By reading this did you see what God showed me?

    I thought to myself the words David said, he could not bring his son back but someday he would go to be with him.

    Now I knew that when David was to pass from this life, he would not be going to hell, but to a righteous place. But I still didn’t understand enough to fully understand how his son would have been written among the righteous.

    I prayed again, the Father opened my mind to think about what Paul had written;

    “none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory”.
    This prompted me to question those who crucified our Savior. I begin looking at scriptures concerning those who crucified Christ. The main group that I saw were the Roman soldiers.

    The next thing God brought to my memory was the crucifixion scene, written in the book of Psalms:

    “They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. (the Roman soldiers done this) Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap. Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake. Pour out your indignation upon them, and let your wrathful anger take hold of them. Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents. For they persecute him whom you have smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom you have wounded. Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into your righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous”.

    In the Jewish translation the word, to erase out rather than blotted out is used. is used. They both mean the same.

    The two things that caught my attention were; The first; The Roman Soldiers gave our Savior gall and vinegar to drink. Secondly, I noticed their names were to be blotted out from the Book of the Living and not to be written among the righteous.

    The next question that came to me was: How did they get their names in the Book of the life, written among the righteous?

    But if we remember what Paul said, that they wouldn't have crucified Christ had they knew who he was. We also know that they were Gentiles, who had not received the gospel yet. We have to conclude they were lost, never being saved. So than, how did they get their names written among the righteous?

    In order to answer this question, I still had to understand, my original concern. That is, when is your name written?

    God brought into my remembrance scripture concerning the book of life and it’s beginning.

    “And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world”.

    With this scripture we are shown the book was in existence since the foundation of the world It doesn’t mean that, there will be those being predestined for Hell, never having their names written in the Book but have been blotted out because of their rejection of righteousness. You see those who have come to the knowledge of righteousness and have turned from it are like dogs who turn to their own vomit, meaning the reject God’s righteousness and turn back into the world.

    As it is write;

    “it is better to not know the way of righteousness, than to know it and turn from it”.

    This becomes clearer later.

    The Savior told his Apostles;
    “Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven”.

    And again we see;

    “He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life”,

    Again;

    “And I entreat you also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life”.

    Then I searched for scriptures that taught your name is written in the Book of Life when a person is saved, which a lot of people teach and use for altar calls. There was none found.

    I’ve also learned that the Book has several names, it is called the Book of the living, the Book of the righteous, the Book of life, all being the same book. We are also told who the book belongs too, when it refers the book belonging to Christ. As it is written as the Lamb’s Book of Life.

    There is controversy over what Christ said about not blotting out your name, from the book of life, if you overcome. They want to say you can be saved today and lost tomorrow. Remember this, many are called but few are chosen. Was Christ giving us a promise or a threat? You’ll read later that God is faithful and said He would not withdraw his grace from those in Christ. So it is a promise to those in Christ and a threat to those that reject him.

    The conclusion then is this: All names are written from the foundation of the world. There is no scripture supporting your name is written upon the receipt of salvation. Those that die lost or reject righteousness have their name blotted out.

    Now, we see the mercy and righteousness of our Father, on the unborn and those that never come to the age of reasoning.
     
  3. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    And what made you conclude that I do not truly know what eternal life is? Just because we have a different understanding or take on what Jesus said in Mt.7:23, that you conclude that I don’t truly know what eternal life is? Before I read this post of yours, I just finished responding to one who asked me what everlasting life means to me. Here is the link:

    Once Saved Always Saved

    Now going back to Mt.7:23, what Jesus said is plain and clear, He never knew them. Meaning there was not a time that Jesus had a relationship with them as He have with those whom He knew and even foreknew.

    <<<Both the lost and saved live forever. One group with God. The other group in the Lake of Fire.>>>

    You seem to say that the lost have life without end, though it is one in the lake of fire.

    I don’t have the same view. For in the lake of fire, there is only death. And death is the exact opposite of what life is. In my view, the lost will have eternal death and the saved will have eternal life.

    Tong
    R3019
     
  4. Daniel Veler

    Daniel Veler Active Member

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    Do those in the lake of Fire stop to exist at any time or are they tormented throughout eternity?
     
  5. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    Note: quoted part of post only because it is too long that and this reply post is being rejected for posting.

    Interesting thoughts you have there. However I just don’t see how that relates to my post that you made this response.

    Anyway, regarding your post, here are passages concerning that. Perhaps you can consider them as well.

    Gen. 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intents of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    Gen.8:21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

    Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.


    Tong
    R3020
     
  6. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    In my present view concerning that, I take plainly what scriptures says;

    Matthew 25:46
    And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    Tong
    R3021
     
  7. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    of course we are not saved by our works. We are saved by trust. But most of us are not really in the trust (faith). That’s a serious thing - saying you trust but proving you don’t in many little ways.

    From start to finish, it is all done by trust. But we are easily swayed from our trust and we do mix other things into it. Do we see that at first? No. God knows how to take us to more trust, piece by piece. It’s painful for us and we struggle in it, until He shows us how we say we trust but don’t, in many little ways.

    There is a verse that says, I cannot make you stand firm if you won’t stand firm. If you read it and think you are the one standing firm, you probably have not yet seen yourself or your unfaithfulnesses.

    We are, currently, Israel in the desert after having passed through the Red Sea. They trusted God to save their lives, so they stepped out under the wall of water. We, also, trusted God to save us alive. But then Israel did not continue in that trust when it came to provision/food. And that is where we are. Worrying about money, how we will pay the bills, the state of the economy. But real trust would not do that. Real trust would say, God had ravens bring food to a man, God made jars of oil and flour last for a widow and her son, God made food fall from the sky, God can put holes in pockets or sew up holes in pockets, God can make a pair of shoes last 40 years.

    We do not see miracles and so we say, God doesn’t do them because they aren’t necessary any more. And we KNOW that is wrong because we read, and He could not do many miracles there because of their lack of trust. But we don’t want miracles, we want money. So He will give us money until it begins to come out of our noses and we still won’t have enough.

    We are exactly where Israel was, insisting on gathering more than enough for the day and worrying God will not give us enough again tomorrow. It’s one step but we can’t bring ourselves to take it and so we cannot go any further with God and into what He has for us. Repent and turn back to your trust. He cannot make you stand firm if you will not stand firm. The kingdom of God is not a matter of a lot of talk but of power. Where is the power? All the world is “woke,” apparently. We have been lulled to sleep. Admit the truth, repent, turn back to trust. We must not just read about trust, we must do it and stand very firm in it and wait to see what God will do for us.
     
  8. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    We have already talked about the woman caught in adultery and far as the Para---"sins of the father?"
     
  9. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    Well, the scriptures says “your sins are forgiven“.

    Tong
    R3029
     
  10. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    I agree
     
  11. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    Deciding is a work.

    Believing is a work.

    The best way to be saved without works is stay on the couch and take a tranquilizer to make one stop using energy to be "saved".
     
  12. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    what do you think she was doing there?
    Interceding and offering the sacrifice as scripture says Jn 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother
    That’s significant
     
  13. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    The thief was ignorant
    The apostles haven’t begun teaching yet
    And we must be taught Lk 1:4
     
  14. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    LOL
    There is nothing that Christ and the Apostles told us to do, that falls under the category of "works" not even Good Deeds. It is an old concern that occurred with the Protestant reformation. see post 185
     
  15. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    you do not have a single thing that God has not given you, including your trust, your next breath of oxygen and what energy you have. He can open eyes or put blindness on eyes. I beg you to be careful and think about what you have and who is the giver of all you have and then you will not talk about any works but the work of God in you and toward you.
     
    Blood Bought 1953 likes this.
  16. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    If you could just cite scriptures that the apostles preached what is has been preached about the virgin Mary, this issue will be easily settled.

    Tong
    R3033
     
  17. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    I think everyone would want to be ignorant like the thief? What happened with the thief is a demonstration of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. And how do you suppose the thief had faith that he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Lord?

    Tong
    R3033
     
  18. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    cant be on the body of Christ without sacraments

    1 Corinthians 12:13
    For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    Galatians 3:27
    For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    only one church Jn 10:16

    The promise (sacred oath or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

    Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
    (Oath = sacrament)

    Hebrews 8:6
    But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:



    A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
    Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

    The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

    Better covenant on better promises
     
  19. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    Grace accomplishes all Jn 15:5
    But you still have things to do
     
  20. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    From Genesis to revelation!

    First promise of salvation!

    Gen 3:15
    And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Total war: enmity

    None of satans works are found in Mary, she belongs entirely to God!
    Even consecration herself to God at a very young age.

    Isa 7:14

    1 kings 2: 17 And he said, Speak, I pray thee, unto Solomon the king, (for he will not say thee nay,) that he give me Abishag the Shunammite to wife.

    18 And Bathsheba said, Well; I will speak for thee unto the king.

    19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.

    20 Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay.

    2 Tim 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

    2 Tim 2: 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. How much more Mary who was prepared by God thru the immaculate conception! Lk 1:49

    Heb 2:7

    Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands





    Mary is the great sign of the divinity of Christ!

    Isa 7:14
    Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    Matt 1:23
    Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


    Lk 1:35
    And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Lk 2:35
    a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

    Matt 27:54
    Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

    Jn 2:3
    And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

    Jn 2:11
    This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

    Rev 12:1
    And there appeared a great sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

    Rev 1:5
    And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.





    Mother of God Lk 1:43
    Immaculate conception (sinless) gen 3:15 enmity or total war none of satans works are found in Mary
    Also Lk 1:28 full of grace lk 1:49 great things plural (immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus) Lk 1:30 found favor with God (the salvation lost by Adam) mother of our salvation Lk 2:30
    Perpetual Virgin Isa 7:14 matt 1:21
    Lk 1:31-34

    Queen of heaven
    In the line of david’s kingdom the mother of the king is always queen
    Jesus is king Lk 1:32-33
    And king of heaven so Mary is queen of heaven

    A Royal greeting!

    Lk 1:28 is the only place in the Bible where such a greeting takes place!
    Mary is of the tribe of Judah and the royal house of David the king!

    God himself is greeting Mary thru the instrument of the angel Gabriel!

    This is a Royal greeting of the queen of heaven and earth! Queen of the angels and saints! Mary is of the house of king David!

    In the line of king David the mother of the king is the queen, as Jesus Christ is the king of heaven and earth and the angels and saints so Mary is the queen of the same! Lk 1:32-33

    Lk 1:28 And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.
    29 And when she had heard, she was troubled in his word, and thought what manner salutation this was.
    30 And the angel said to her, Dread thou not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

    Mary is queen in rev 12:1 and heb 4:16
    Mother of divine grace


    Mary is our spiritual mother


    Mary is the Mother of the living in Christ and the new creation!

    Genesis 3:20
    And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

    John 19:26-27
    When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith has he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

    Jesus is not just asking John to care for His mother, if so He would have said so.

    Jesus is in the very least making Mary John’s spiritual mother! And if the apostle John needs a spiritual mother so do we!
    What is the family of God without a mother? The mother is the heart of the family! Jesus said I will not leave you orphans! Jn 14:18 He proved Mary the mother of one disciple then He does so for all disciples!

    As eve was the mother of all the living in the first creation, gen 3:20 so Mary is the mother of all those who live in Christ and the new creation!

    Rev 12:17 our spiritual mother!

    Rachel is spiritual mother of Israel!
    A type of Mary as spiritual mother of Christians!

    The 12 sons of Jacob have 4 biological mothers, but Rachel is the spiritual mother of all Israel!

    Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are no more.

    Ark of the new covenant!
    The dwelling place of God!
    God dwelt in Mary’s womb for 9 months, remember the ark was incorruptible wood covered with pure gold signifying Mary’s immaculate purity!
    read exodus or any place in the Old Testament where something came into contact with God or was consecrated to the service of God it had to be pure and Holy!
    In the ark was the word of God!
    In Mary the new ark is the living Word!
    In the ark was the mana!
    In Mary was the bread come down from heaven! Jn 6
    Bethlehem means house to of bread!

    Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, (Isa 7:14) and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
     
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