Many people regard the words of God in the Bible as the only utterances of God, and believe that all God’s words are in the Bible, and apart from those words, there are no other utterances of God. Such belief does not conform with the fact nor with the truth. We all know that the work of God in the Age of Law and His work in the Age of Grace are recorded in the Bible. But not everything God did in these two ages is recorded in it. Just as John 21:25 says: “And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.” It tells us clearly that many other things which Jesus did were not recorded in the Bible then. This shows that the things recorded in the Bible are too limited, and it cannot possibly record all of God’s deeds. Actually, only some of God’s words mankind knew were written down and recorded in the Bible. Apart from them, there are many other words of God which are unknown or have not been disclosed to mankind; for example, the words God said to the angles in the spiritual world, the words God said to Enoch, a man recorded in Genesis who walked with God, and so on. As a matter of fact, many of the words that God has spoken since the creation of the world are not recorded in the Bible. So, how can we say that the Bible is the entirety of the work and words of God? And how can we place God, who is so great, wondrous, and almighty, within the confines of the Bible? How can the Bible represent all that God has and is and His all-inclusiveness? Hence, the view that outside the Bible there are no more words of God is utterly untenable and wrong. Actually God can never run out of words. Of all His words, those words of His in the Bible are only like a drop of water in the sea, a grain of sand in the desert, and a star in the universe, and they cannot at all be the entirety of God’s word. So, if one believes that the Bible contains all God’s words and by it God’s entire management plan can be concluded, and outside it there are no more utterances of God, this is purely his notion. In fact, he is limiting God’s footsteps to the Bible and constraining God’s work within the scope of the Bible. In this way, has he not regarded God too small and defined God? And so, has he not resisted God grievously?
We believe that there are no more words of God outside the Bible; how do you think about it?
- Thread starter Hora.J
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
There is nothing in the Bible that restricts God's Word to it's written form. That does not mean there are some secret or hidden scriptures. It means that God's Word is not confined to one mode of transmission. That would be putting limits on God. There are two modes of transmission, and just because they are different does not make one inferior over the other. Tradition is not a dirty word. There are good traditions the bible commands us to follow, and there are bad traditions the bible says are false. In fact, the authority of Scripture is a Tradition, so it is important to define Sacred Tradition according to Scripture, just as it is important to define Scripture according to the Tradition that delivered it. There is complementary with the two, one does not compete, supplant, or negate the other.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2014/02/tradition-is-not-always-bad-word-it.html
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2014/02/tradition-is-not-always-bad-word-it.html
OzSpen
Well-Known Member
- Mar 30, 2015
- 3,728
- 795
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
So which words of God outside the Bible are you pursuing? Are they authoritative? If so, how do you know they are words of God? How do you determine their reliability as 'words' from God?Hora.J said:
God is not dead, nor is He sleeping.
He is alive, and well.
And He can still speak....to those who have ears to hear Him...
He is alive, and well.
And He can still speak....to those who have ears to hear Him...
I don't know about MANY, but I don't. Never have. They are written for a reason and Jesus Himself said many times, IT IS WRITTEN.
The Word of God (Bible) contains ALL we need to be saved and know the true Messiah. Coupled with the Holy Spirit, we are well equipped to grow, as Paul teaches in 2 Tim 3:16. It is our arbiter and guide, along with the Holy Spirit, and prevents any of us from doing off the deep end by saying GOD told me, when He will NEVER tell anyone something that goes against what is IN His written Word.
Your position in your OP is definitely untenable, given the context of the Bible within Christianity. We know who Jesus IS by it and as such, we learn all about our God from it. There is not a thing to be added to the written word of God in respect to KNOWING Him.
I suggest you read Psalm 119 to see just how important God's Written Word is.
The Word of God (Bible) contains ALL we need to be saved and know the true Messiah. Coupled with the Holy Spirit, we are well equipped to grow, as Paul teaches in 2 Tim 3:16. It is our arbiter and guide, along with the Holy Spirit, and prevents any of us from doing off the deep end by saying GOD told me, when He will NEVER tell anyone something that goes against what is IN His written Word.
Your position in your OP is definitely untenable, given the context of the Bible within Christianity. We know who Jesus IS by it and as such, we learn all about our God from it. There is not a thing to be added to the written word of God in respect to KNOWING Him.
I suggest you read Psalm 119 to see just how important God's Written Word is.
Well He said the scriptures dont
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
or this
Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
As Barrd said, Jesus still speaks, just that people dont listen.
As you obviously KNOW how to use the quote tool here I would appreciate it if you would use it properly and NOT take my words OUT of context.mjrhealth said:
Sadly you say one thing and then quote scripture that says the exact opposite. I'm starting to think your incohesiveness is not just due to your bad typing skills.
I thought this was all about the "truth" not ones education or scolary skill which keeps getting brought up. never saw Jesus using big words, only fish He ever used was one to pay His taxes.
As it says in the bible you love so much,
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Mj, when Jesus said that, about searching the scriptures, the New Testament, with the gospels that teach us about Jesus, had not been written yet.mjrhealth said:
Yes, we do need the Bible...if we didn't, God would have dispensed with it by now.
However, I still say that God speaks to His people who have ears to hear Him.
Rightly so, and today do you see christians running to learn from Him, nothings changed, he has given us more than even teh disciples had yet He is denied so men can learn themselves. The bible only does what he said the scriptures (ot) do, they point to Him. testify of Him, than we are supposed to go to Him to learn.
You know that narrow path that leads to life and very few will find it. the bible wasnt supposed to replace the Holy Spirit, nor Jesus or God, but in may peoples lives it has.
Can you imagine what it musyt be like for God to hear", you have to agree with the bible God or we wont listen",
every day, yet it is exactly what happens. What would happen if one day christians where not allowed to have bibles, I gues there would be trouble.
It wasnt God that had a need for the bible it is man, we only need Jesus, there is no salvation or life outside of Him, not even in the bible.
Just take a look at or the arguemnts here based on, "the bible".
If you CAN'T convey your thoughts cohesively or coherently (look up their meanings) the fault is with YOU not the Bible. It has absolutely nothing to do with education or scholarly credentials.mjrhealth said:
Mj, if we did not have the Bible, how would we even know about Jesus? The Bible is God's way of communicating with us in this day.mjrhealth said:
Now, don't get me wrong....the Bible should not replace the Lord on the throne, and I do see that, for some people, that is the case.
It breaks my heart to see that more people can quote from Paul than from The Sermon on the Mount, for instance. There are a great many "Christians" who have no idea who Barabbas was, and only a vague notion of who Mary and Martha were, or who Mary Magdalene really was. I've even met "Christians" who had no idea who Matthias was, or who Simon Magus was, or even who Steven was. But, boy, they know every verse that Paul wrote...or, at least, they think that they do. However, how many of them, I wonder, are truly aware of Paul's past?
Yes, Mj, sadly, we do argue over the Bible. I think it is important that we understand just what Jesus taught when it comes to such things as obedience to the Law, or the role of women in the church, or, most importantly, Who He actually is. We live in a sinful world, Mj, and we could easily lose our bearings. We need to know what God has to say about homosexuality. We need to understand where God stands on things like abortion.
For these kinds of things, Mj, we need our Bibles. But we must never forget that Jesus is our King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
No it is not, God still as He always has, speaks to man as does Jesus, even teh Holy Spirit, it is man that has given up on God, That topic, "slain in the spirit", that is what the bible has done, it distances man from God, mans choice, not His.
And that is why so many know "about God" but dont Know Him.
Like these
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
How can one have a relationship with someone if they never talk.
If Jesus is not First He may as well be last.
Opinions based on what they read in the bible, not what he has taught them.
Wormwood
Chaps
"The righteous will live by faith." It does not say "the righteous will live by inner voices." We believe what God has said. We are called to meditate on and appropriately divide God's word and are warned about teachers who would twist it and misuse it. The debates and divisiveness about the Bible are not due to the Bible or people's inability to hear the voice of God in their own imagination and decipher it all perfectly. We see no such concept in the Scriptures. We are told to meditate on the word, obey it, and trust it. God gives us his Spirit not to supplant the Word but to affirm it, remind us of it and help us to follow it,mj. You keep quoting a verse about Jesus rebuking the Pharisees but that was in relation to their rejection of Jesus. Jesus is NOT telling them that if they really knew the OT they would have a mystical union with him that would teach them the real truth about all things pertaining to the Spirit which is superior to the Scriptures, as you infer. He was telling them that he was the Messiah and if they understood their Scriptures they would recognize his miracles and words were coming from God. That is the point. Using that verse as a proof-text for undermining the value of Scripture and a plea for enthusiasm is reckless and a twisting of this passage. Jesus is teaching no such thing here.
Your teaching on this matter I would consider dangerous and cancerous. It leads people to think that their own imaginations are as good as or superior to the inspired Word of God. The Scriptures are full of warnings about those who trusted their own imaginations rather than God's Word and the consequences of such folly. We know Jesus and walk with him, not because we imagine him in our mind and convince ourselves that our thoughts are actually His, but we come to fellowship with him and walk with him by faith in the testimony we have received from the original witnesses (1 John 1:1-4). The Spirit acknowledges our faith in that testimony and helps us to continue in it. Your teaching lends itself to not only undermine the authority of the Scripture, but wrongly exalts your own imagination and desires as inseparable from the voice of Christ and the highest authority. Pride is a dangerous thing. Your teaching is nothing but self-exaltation and if Scripture is clear about anything, it is clear that God opposes such pride.
Your teaching on this matter I would consider dangerous and cancerous. It leads people to think that their own imaginations are as good as or superior to the inspired Word of God. The Scriptures are full of warnings about those who trusted their own imaginations rather than God's Word and the consequences of such folly. We know Jesus and walk with him, not because we imagine him in our mind and convince ourselves that our thoughts are actually His, but we come to fellowship with him and walk with him by faith in the testimony we have received from the original witnesses (1 John 1:1-4). The Spirit acknowledges our faith in that testimony and helps us to continue in it. Your teaching lends itself to not only undermine the authority of the Scripture, but wrongly exalts your own imagination and desires as inseparable from the voice of Christ and the highest authority. Pride is a dangerous thing. Your teaching is nothing but self-exaltation and if Scripture is clear about anything, it is clear that God opposes such pride.
I've always thought it rather strange that when we talk to God (pray), we are being "good Christians"...but if we claim to hear the voice of God speaking to us, we are crazy.
WW is right, of course...well, mostly. We should not trust our own vain imagination. The Bible is God's Word to us, and we should trust Him enough to trust His Word.
However, we are told in that same Word that, in this New Covenant, we would each have an intimate relationship with Him:
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
and again:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
And Jesus, Himself, tells us:
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
....
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
There is a caveat, however, that we must not overlook:
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
There is a warning here...there are strangers' voices, clamoring for our attention.
If you truly wish to hear the voice of God, you must first hear Him speaking to you through His Sacred Word.
At least, that is The Barrd's opinion...
WW is right, of course...well, mostly. We should not trust our own vain imagination. The Bible is God's Word to us, and we should trust Him enough to trust His Word.
However, we are told in that same Word that, in this New Covenant, we would each have an intimate relationship with Him:
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
and again:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
And Jesus, Himself, tells us:
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
....
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
There is a caveat, however, that we must not overlook:
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
There is a warning here...there are strangers' voices, clamoring for our attention.
If you truly wish to hear the voice of God, you must first hear Him speaking to you through His Sacred Word.
At least, that is The Barrd's opinion...
Wormwood
Chaps
I appreciate what you wrote, Barrd, but I am not in complete agreement. Yes, we know the Lord as Christians. Our knowledge is one that is intimate and His Spirit testifies to our spirits that we are His children. We know his love, his acceptance and his forgiveness through the Spirit and know there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Our lives should be filled with joy and love due to the testimony of Christ and the inner witness of the Spirit.
However, this inner witness does not compete against or supplant the Scriptures (as mjhealth implies) (and I recognize you probably dont mean that). The inner witness of the Spirit affirms the truth of the Scriptures and testifies we belong to God, but He does not give us new revelations or clarification on doctrinal matters or ensures our interpretations are right and those who do not "hear his voice" as well as we do are wrong. That is not the role of the Spirit in our lives and such a view makes disharmony because it perpetuates the idea that there is one right group and everyone else is wrong (since certainly God would not teach two different denominations two different things...only one can be right). Frankly, it leads to mjhealth's mindset where one says, "Oh, you dont agree with me? Well, you must be an inferior Christian who does not know the shepherd and hear his voice." There is no indication that the Spirit works in this manner. Rather, the Spirit brings unity in the midst of our differences because He helps us to love and accept one another and act in a spirit of genuine humility.
Moreover, in John 10, Jesus was referring to his followers who were walking around with him. Using this verse to imply that there is some inner voice that teaches us specific truths or doctrines to ensure we have it right while others are wrong is just not the meaning of this verse. Jesus is talking about those who hear his teaching and know that it comes from God belong to God. He is their shepherd. All Christians who accept the words of Jesus as the words of God do this. It is not talking about subjective inner voices here.
However, this inner witness does not compete against or supplant the Scriptures (as mjhealth implies) (and I recognize you probably dont mean that). The inner witness of the Spirit affirms the truth of the Scriptures and testifies we belong to God, but He does not give us new revelations or clarification on doctrinal matters or ensures our interpretations are right and those who do not "hear his voice" as well as we do are wrong. That is not the role of the Spirit in our lives and such a view makes disharmony because it perpetuates the idea that there is one right group and everyone else is wrong (since certainly God would not teach two different denominations two different things...only one can be right). Frankly, it leads to mjhealth's mindset where one says, "Oh, you dont agree with me? Well, you must be an inferior Christian who does not know the shepherd and hear his voice." There is no indication that the Spirit works in this manner. Rather, the Spirit brings unity in the midst of our differences because He helps us to love and accept one another and act in a spirit of genuine humility.
Moreover, in John 10, Jesus was referring to his followers who were walking around with him. Using this verse to imply that there is some inner voice that teaches us specific truths or doctrines to ensure we have it right while others are wrong is just not the meaning of this verse. Jesus is talking about those who hear his teaching and know that it comes from God belong to God. He is their shepherd. All Christians who accept the words of Jesus as the words of God do this. It is not talking about subjective inner voices here.
No, WW, God is not whispering any new revelations in anyone's ears. I completely agree with you that the Bible is God's final Word to mankind, and that the Spirit within us affirms that.Wormwood said:
But I also believe that God does speak to us, in a personal way.
Would you believe me if I were to tell you that when my husband was taken from me, God spoke to me and comforted me? That He whispered to me and strengthened me during those dark days when I took whatever dirty, drudge work I could get, in order to support myself and my kids? That He spoke to me that time that I was mauled by a vicious dog, and nearly died? I'm no one special, WW...just a hack writer from Alabama, struggling to make ends meet.
But God has spoken to me...
You may say that those occasions were my imagination, and I cannot "prove" you wrong. But, in my heart of hearts, I know.
God spoke to me.
God spoke to me.
Did he really, well knock me down and strike a light.
I guess I should go read that topic on slaying by teh spirit, seems there are plenty saying just that.
I really dont care if you agree with me or not, you only have to agree with Jesus. Have you ever noticed who teh ones where who disagreed with Jesus, one needs to take a look at Saul, at what he was and what he became after His meeting with Jesus, whom he did not know even with all his learning, yes He became a man broken who counted all he knew as worthless so that he could know Jesus. Went from being loved and aproved by man yet not aproved by God, to hated and despised by men and aproved of God.
He went from being the least qualified to the most qualified,
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Similar threads
