Were they Jesus's siblings?

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St. SteVen

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... this is the second time you haven't answered that question.
And the third time you haven't answered mine. Don't make me the bad guy here.

You can't authenticate your extra-biblical evidence.
Or, you can neither authenticate your extra-biblical evidence, nor can you authenticate the Bible.
Take your pick. I'm fine either way.
 

Sigma

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And the third time you haven't answered mine. Don't make me the bad guy here.

Agan, I want to answer your question, and I told you I'm prefacing my answer with this question: how do you authenticate the testimonies in the Bible? So, for the fifth time, if you want to see my answer, then anwer that question.
 
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St. SteVen

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Agan, I want to answer your question, and I told you I'm prefacing my answer with this question: how do you authenticate the testimonies in the Bible? So, for the fourth time, if you want to see my answer, then anwer that question.
I already have your answer.
You can't authenticate your extra-biblical evidence.
I'm satisfied with that. Nothing more is needed from you. Thanks.
 

Sigma

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I already have your answer.
You can't authenticate your extra-biblical evidence.
I'm satisfied with that. Nothing more is needed from you. Thanks.

It seems when you told me, "I respect your position" it really meant "I respect what position I say yours is."
 
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Sigma

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The elephant in the room is still there.....large and ignored. Why?......because no one else but those who adhere to the Catholic faith has any scriptural reason to deny that Mary and Joseph’s marriage was a real marriage....and where the “marriage due” was expected. If Mary and Joseph had intercourse, then there goes Mary’s perpetual virginity....nothing in scripture says otherwise. It’s your church who says that’s true, not the Bible.

That's not the thread topic, if you'd like to discuss those things with me, then create thread or wait until I do. This thread topic is about Jesus's kinsmen Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 not being His siblings, and you've ignored my latest arguments to you about it. See post #65.
 

Taken

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Were these men Jesus's siblings?​

OP ^

Sibling - basic meaning.
An individual who shares a biological, or legalized, common Parent (mother or father)…or common biological or legalized Grandfather, Grandmother (Great, Great, etc. Grandfather, Grandmother).

Sibling is a broad term; that can be used “broadly” as “brother or sister”…or more specific as “STEP sibling, STEP brother, STEP sister, HALF sibling, HALf brother, HALF sister, ADOPTED sibling, ADOPTED brother, ADOPTED sister, APPOINTED guardian…which all falls “under” the LEGALITIES of “common and statutory” LAWS.

Gods “SPIRITUAL” Laws (beyond mans confinement to “common and legal statutory” Laws)… hangs on the Relationship of a Single Individual WHOSE Relationship IS BY the Single Individual Recognized AND Establish AS that Single Individual BEING “A son of God”.
(That ^ having BEEN Established…BY, THROUGH, OF…according TO:
Gods Grace Offering, Gods Order, Gods Way.)

Every Individual WHO, “HAS” an Established Relationship WITH God being that individuals’ FATHER, “HAS” Spiritually “By, Through, Of God’s Grace Offering and Gods Power….
* BECOME “a son of God”…
* AND BECOME “MADE” “a Spiritual Brethren” OF the ONLY BEGOTTEN “Son of God”.

Begotten - meaning Is established By, Through, Of the MALE “SEED” provider. In other words, THE “SEED” which comes forth OUT from the MALE, IS the BEGOTTEN, IS the Offspring OF whomever IS that MALE.

In Gods case…God IS the MALE…His SEED that came forth OUT from God IN Heaven, IS He Whom God Named JESUS, and Called JESUS, the ONLY “Begotten” Son of God, the WORD of God, the TRUTH of God, the LIFE of God, the Power (Spirit)of God, Which God also called the Power (Spirit)of God; CHRIST…and WHICH God SENT from Heaven TO EARTH…in the LIKENESS AS A MAN…for Earthly men to SEE and HEAR and LEARN and FOLLOW and BELIEVE and Continue FOLLOWING and INDIVIDUALLY freely CHOOSE to BECOME His Spiritual BRETHREN…(making JESUS’ FATHER, that individuals FATHER)…or NOT.

Regarding Earthly men…
The First, named ADAM, was a CREATION by Gods Power (not Gods Seed).
The First, Created man, ADAM, was MADE Alive by Gods BREATH (not Gods Seed).
The First, Created and Made man, ADAM, was Created and Made with “his OWN seed” to reproduce “his OWN kind of Earthy man”of offspring. (As was/is every offspring of an earthly man, and are BEGOTTEN of their said natural Father).

A natural earthly man WHO elects (freely chooses) to BECOME A “son of God”, DOES SO, By Becoming MADE (by, through, of Gods Grace Offering, Jesus, Gods Only Begotten Son, Christ, Gods Power, Gods Life and thus THAT MAN…a “Spiritual Brethren” OF Gods ONLY Begotten Son, AND a son of Christ Jesus’ FATHER, WHO IS God.

Regarding earthly men;
They ALL begin as earthly men, IGNORANT, hearing, seeing, learning bit by bit, little by little. Vacillate believing this and that. Hearing, Seeing more and more, continually Believing new, discarding the old, weighing what they hear and see, wondering, wavering….Growing, Maturing, observing, experiencing personal RESULTS FOR THAT WHICH they ARE BELIEVING at any point in their natural life days/years.

Regarding Earthly man-KIND…(male & female)…
NAMES…
Names the Earthly (daddy & mommy) DECLARE, establish, call them, (according to their own Choices).

James, Simon, John, Samuel, Mary, Salome for example were expressly COMMON Ancient, Historical NAMES mankind USED to call their natural Offspring…and not a secret NAMES mankind has used to call their offspring continues to be repeated INTO Modern Days, world wide, families, cultures, reasoning, choices.

Distinguishing two individuals who share the SAME NAME, is by, through, of a series of methods; For example;
Their daddy, their mommy, their place of birth, their place of residence, their occupation, their position of status, of wealth. Their citizenship, their outer characteristics, (hair, eye, skin coloring, personality, beliefs, moral standing, dress code, stature of tall, short, slim, heavy, preferred associations); their Surnames; their minds declarations, their hearts declarations and observed behaviors that do (sometimes or always or never) parallel their own declarations.

Jesus’ Spiritual Father IS God.
Jesus’ Earthly Siblings are natural sons and daughters of His (mans Law) LEGAL father (Joseph, of the House of David through Joseph’s geanological line) and of His (mans Law) LEGAL mother (Mary, of the House of David through Mary’s geanological line.)

Trying to Break-down step, by step, any ONE particular persons geanological LEGAL descending-relationship mentioned IN Scripture is a long in-depth daunting task.

* James the son of Joseph and Mary (of Nazareth).
(Jesus’ LEGAL parents via mans Law and Jesus’ LEGAL sibling via mans Law).

* James the son of Zebedee and Salome…

* James the son Alphaeus (of Cleopas) and Mary.

* James, son of Joseph and Mary…
* James, son of Zebedee and Salome…
* James, son of Alphaeus and Mary…
* Each (according to their individual day/natural life-time; ) Became MADE Spiritual Brethren’s of Christ the Lord Jesus, by, through, of Gods Grace Offering, Gods Power, and Each individuals established Commitment of True Heartful Belief IN the Lord God Almighty.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Aunty Jane

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That's not the thread topic, if you'd like to discuss those things with me, then create thread or wait until I do. This thread topic is about Jesus's kinsmen Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 not being His siblings, and you've ignored my latest arguments to you about it. See post #65.
You seem to want to ignore the correlation between the thread topic (the fact that your church insists that these ones mentioned were NOT Jesus’ siblings).....and the reason WHY you church insists that they CANNOT be his siblings. You cannot separate the two issues.

The whole reason for the thread is to prove that Mary and Joseph could not have had children after Jesus because Mary has to be a perpetual virgin (according to Catholicism).....never having other children and that her “marriage” to Joseph was a sham because Joseph was denied a wife in the true sense of the word. Marriage is God’s arrangement and there is NOTHING in scripture to even suggest what your church teaches regarding Mary.
None of your doctrines are scriptural and therefore null and void to serious Bible students.

Anyone who believes what you say regarding this issue will be a fellow Catholic.....you will be preaching to the choir. What are you hoping to achieve here? Fair to say that it’s not working.....you have convinced no one.
 
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face2face

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Believe what nonsense you like. What is your point in this anyway? To try to prove a rcc false doctrine in a vain effort to alleviate Mary to something she's not? It's a falsehood as are many other rcc goofy doctrines and beliefs. i.e.; pope, infant "baptism" (sprinkling/pouring), the priesthood, mandatory celibacy, and on and on.
The issue is the whore has many daughters and the doctrines she has made the nation's drink are still in Christianity today.
F2F
 

Sigma

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You seem to want to ignore the correlation between the thread topic (the fact that your church insists that these ones mentioned were NOT Jesus’ siblings).....and the reason WHY you church insists that they CANNOT be his siblings. You cannot separate the two issues.

The evidence I've provided in the opening post shows Jesus's kinsmen Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were the sons of Mary's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus His cousins. That's the reason why they can't be Jesus's siblings. It seems you want to go off-topic and discuss the perpetual virginity of Mary because you can't refute my latest arguments pertaining to this thread topic. If not, then see post #65.

The whole reason for the thread is to prove that Mary and Joseph could not have had children after Jesus because Mary has to be a perpetual virgin (according to Catholicism)...

You're the second protestant in this thread to put words in my mouth. Again, the purpose of this thread is to show that Jesus's kinsmen Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were His cousins, not siblings.
 

Aunty Jane

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the purpose of this thread is to show that Jesus's kinsmen Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were His cousins, not siblings.
There is no way that you have convinced anyone here of that unscriptural belief. All beliefs pertaining to Mary in the Catholic church are bogus, lacking any real foundation in scripture. You will convince no one but your fellow Catholics of those ideas here. You have dodged the real motive behind the OP topic.
 

Rockerduck

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Hello Sigma,
You are preaching a false gospel by changing what the bible specifically says in ;

Matthew 12:46 - While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him.

Matthew would have plainly stated that Jesus Mother and family or cousins were outside, but Matthew told the truth; Jesus' Mother and brothers were outside

You are trying to justify a position that Only Catholics believe. You will not convince anyone else of your claims. Nobody needs to prove anything otherwise. The burden is on you. I pray God opens your heart that you see the errors you put forth. Jesus Christ is at the door knocking; answer and except Him as your Lord and Savior. All power in heaven and earth has been given to Him. Jesus is only mediator between us and God. All knees shall bow and every tongue will confess Jesus as Lord. God is a jealous God ( make no images to worship) - 2 commandment

Exodus 20:4-5 - You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5
you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God
 

Sigma

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There is no way that you have convinced anyone here of that unscriptural belief.

It's the truth that Jesus's kinsmen Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were His cousins, not siblings, whether people accept the evidence for it or not. If you really believe it's not the truth, then you shouldn't have any trouble replying to my latest arguments to you about it (post #65). Or, do you bow out?
 

Sigma

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You are preaching a false gospel by changing what the bible specifically says in ;

Matthew 12:46 - While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him.

Matthew would have plainly stated that Jesus Mother and family or cousins were outside, but Matthew told the truth; Jesus' Mother and brothers were outside

I haven't changed anything. The word "brother" is used in Matt. 12:46 and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "kinsman," e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc. The context in Matt. 12:46 shows the definition "kinsman," applies to Jesus's brothers in that verse. However, information needed to determine the type of kinship between Jesus and His kinsmen is lacking in those same verses and others

It's because of Jesus through Maria Valtorta that I have a detailed looked into that verse and know the type of kinship that applies, because the brothers who arrived with Jesus's mother to speak with Him were Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus, the sons of His mother's spouse's brother, and thus His cousins. The same Joseph and Simon in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. II, ch. 268, pp. 430-436).

Nobody needs to prove anything otherwise. The burden is on you.

I did. Each of you will either accept the truth or you won't. Whether or not you do, it's still the truth as I've shown.
 
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Rockerduck

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Matt. 12:46 shows that Jesus's brothers in that verse were His kin. However, kinship isn't limited to siblings, and information that can help determine the type of kinship between Jesus and His kinsmen is lacking in that same verse and others. Because of Jesus through Maria Valtorta, I have a detailed looked into that verse and know that Jesus's brothers who arrived with His mother to speak with Him were two of His four cousins, Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus. The same Joseph and Simon in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. II, ch. 268, pp. 430-436). Do you have evidence that shows the type of kinship that applies in Matt. 12:46 is that of siblings?



I did. Each of you will either accept the truth or you won't. Whether or not you do, it's still the truth as I've shown.
That's not in the word of God. Nothing about kinship is written in Matthew 12:46.
 

Sigma

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But that is its primary meaning in English and the only meaning in the Greek in which this was written.

Where did you learn that?

All your cites are ot cites and that is in Hebrew and not Greek.

I cited OT Hebrew and NT Koine Greek

So prove this new theory of yours is valid and you win! Prove that Mary was barren and you win!

This is the second time you've replied to something that I didn't say. I actually said, "For the sake of argument, say the word "until" was used to mean Joseph and Mary had intercourse after Jesus's birth, that in itself wouldn't prove Mary bore more children because, for example, having vaginal intercourse doesn't lead to procreation for some men and women." In other words, sometimes the woman is barren or the man is sterile, etc. Food for thought since you consider Matt. 1:25 proof Joseph and Mary conceived children together.

...the major meaning is still brothers by blood! The other meanings are if the first isn't valid. That is how multiple meanings work. when you have say 4 meanings of a word, the first is always the main reason unless it is not valid. then you go to the second, third and so on to get to the valid definition.

Also it never applies to the feminine adelphoi in first century greek and Hebrew culture. No one ever said women were sisters, they were all considered brethren by ethnicity.

Where did you learn that?

Your homework:

(i) Show when "kinsman," e.g., sibling, cousin, uncle, etc., was abandoned as a definition of the word "ἀδελφός" (adelphos) post-Septuagint and pre-New Testament.

(ii) Explain why there are Lexicons, e.g., Lidell-Scott-Jones, Mounce, etc., that include the definition "kinsman" for the word "ἀδελφός" (adelphos) if it was abandoned post-Septuagint and pre-New Testament.
 
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