Were they Jesus's siblings?

[Sigma]

That's not in the word of God. Nothing about kinship is written in Matthew 12:46.

Again, the word "brother" is used in Matt. 12:46 and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "kinsman," e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc. The context in Matt. 12:46 shows the definition "kinsman" applies. However, information needed to determine the type of kinship between Jesus and His kinsmen is lacking in those same verses and others

It's because of Jesus through Maria Valtorta that we have a detailed look into Matt. 12:46 and know the type of kinship that applies. The brothers who arrived with Jesus's mother to speak with Him were Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus, the sons of His mother's spouse's brother, and thus His cousins. The same Joseph and Simon in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. II, ch. 268, pp. 430-436).

 

[Rockerduck]

Again, the word "brother" is used in Matt. 12:46 and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "kinsman," e.g., cousin, nephew, uncle, etc. The context in Matt. 12:46 shows the definition "kinsman" applies. However, information that can help determine the type of kinship between Jesus and His kinsmen is lacking in that same verse and others.

It's because of Jesus through Maria Valtorta that we have a detailed look into Matt. 12:46 and know the type of kinship that applies, because the brothers who arrived with Jesus's mother to speak with Him were Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus, the sons of His mother's spouse's brother, and thus His cousins. The same Joseph and Simon in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. II, ch. 268, pp. 430-436).

Medication's? Just saying. It does not sound like Jesus you are preaching. Why do you bring library books in as sources?

 

[Aunty Jane]

It's the truth that Jesus's kinsmen Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were His cousins, not siblings, whether people accept the evidence for it or not.

I guess you are set on your POV and you are welcome to it.

“Kin” is family and “brothers and sisters” are “kin”.
Mary had other children as was expected in Jewish family life…..nothing in scripture even suggests what you are insisting is the truth. Joseph was not a sham husband but a legally married man who had a wife who bore him children as God intended…..where does scripture say otherwise?

If you really believe it's not the truth, then you shouldn't have any trouble replying to my latest arguments to you about it (post #65). Or, do you bow out?

We have all answered you as much as our patience will allow….I will leave this fruitless circular argument now because you have been told the truth as scripture presents it, but your Catholic indoctrination will not allow you to accept it…so be it. Goodbye.

 

[Sigma]

“Kin” is family and “brothers and sisters” are “kin”.

The word "brother" is used in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "kinsman," e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc. The context in Matt. 12:46 shows the definition "kinsman" applies. However, information needed to determine the type of kinship between Jesus and His kinsmen is lacking in those same verses and others, and thus our agreeing that the context in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 shows the definition "kinsman" applies doesn't prove they were siblings, cousins, or any other type.

That's why I've provided evidence in the opening post that confirms Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's brothers, as in kinsmen, and shows that the type of kinship between them and Jesus was that of cousins, not siblings. This was accomplished primarily by identifying James.

I will leave this fruitless circular argument now because you have been told the truth as scripture presents it, but your Catholic indoctrination will not allow you to accept it…so be it. Goodbye.

If you decide to continue our conversation by replying to post #65, I will be happy to. Until then, your bow out is duly noted.

 

[Sigma]

Why do you bring library books in as sources?

There's no better source than Jesus.

 

[Rockerduck]

There's no better source than Jesus.

I read the bible about Jesus, not a book somebody wrote about Jesus.

 

[Sigma]

I read the bible about Jesus, not a book somebody wrote about Jesus.

I don't confine Jesus to the pages of the Bible. He didn't go mute when He resurrected.

 

[Rockerduck]

I don't confine Jesus to the pages of the Bible. He's alive and didn't go mute when He resurrected.

Absolutely. Jesus is alive and not mute. Jesus Christ is in me,, and the Holy Spirit of truth speaks and guides me and tells me what is to come..

Galatians 2:20 - I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

John 16:13 - However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

 

[Sigma]

Absolutely. Jesus is alive and not mute.

If you really believe Jesus is alive and not a mute, then why do you confine Him to only the Bible, and automatically reject the writings of people like Maria Valtorta who He also spoke through?

 

[Rockerduck]

If you really believe Jesus is alive and not a mute, then why do you confine Him to only the Bible and automatically reject the writings of people like Maria Valtorta who He spoke through?

because man has a finite mind, and God is infinite.

 

[Sigma]

because man has a finite mind, and God is infinite.

I'm finite, yet I don't confine Jesus to only the Bible. So, you're capable not doing the same too, if you choose.

 

[Rockerduck]

I'm finite, yet I don't confine Jesus to only the Bible. So, you're capable not doing the same too, if you choose.

Yes, I walk by Faith, and not by sight. I rely on the Holy Spirit for guidance. He shows me truth as Jesus Christ commands.

 

[Sigma]

Yes, I walk by Faith, and not by sight. I rely on the Holy Spirit for guidance. He shows me truth as Jesus Christ commands.

And He requires our will to want to know the truth in order to show us. So, when you automatically reject people like Maria Valtorta, you're not allowing the Holy Spirit the opportunity to show you what she writes at the behest of Jesus is truth.

 

[Rockerduck]

And He requires our will to want to know the truth in order to show us. So, when you automatically reject people like Maria Valtorta, you're not allowing the Holy Spirit the opportunity to show you what she writes at the behest of Jesus is truth.

You are so single minded. What books do you reject?

Do you read Ellen G. White? Do you read Charles Taz Russell? Do you read Joseph Smith? How about Mary Baker Eddy?
They all write about Jesus. Do you agree with them or reject them.

 

[Sigma]

You are so single minded. What books do you reject?

Do you read Ellen G. White? Do you read Charles Taz Russell? Do you read Joseph Smith? How about Mary Baker Eddy?
They all write about Jesus. Do you agree with them or reject them.

I haven't read any of their work. How can you call me single minded, when you don't believe Jesus talks to anyone outside of those mentioned in the Bible? I'm not saying automatucally believe anyone who says Jesus talks to them, but you don't want to know anything about Maria Valtorta and the Work, and just automatically assume Jesus didn't talk to her, etc. How can the Holy Spirit work with you like that?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I cited OT Hebrew and NT Koine Greek

But Hebrew and Greek are two differing languages and did not have the same vocabulary. YOu also used a meaning that does not exist for adelphos. Here is the accepted definintions of Adelphos by all greek linguistic scholars:

1. a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2. having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3. any fellow or man
4. a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5. an associate in employment or office
6. brethren in Christ
   1. his brothers by blood
   2. all men
   3. apostles
   4. Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place
7. Nowhere is a near relative like uncle, cousin, nephew etc. used for adelphos

Sorry you are just wrong.

 

[Rockerduck]

I haven't read any of their work. How can you call me single minded, when you don't believe Jesus talks to anyone outside of those mentioned in the Bible? I'm not saying automatucally believe anyone who says Jesus talks to them, but you don't want to know anything about Maria Valtorta and the Work, and just automatically assume Jesus didn't talk to her, etc. How can the Holy Spirit work with you like that?

Because you only support Catholic book authors. I reject any religion that teaches out of founders and authored books and not straight out of the bible. You can use archaeological books that back up the bible and Jewish heritage and 1st century weddings to describe and back up the bible. But I don't trust man's finite mind to describe an infinite God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is the second time you've replied to something that I didn't say. I actually said, "For the sake of argument, say the word "until" was used to mean Joseph and Mary had intercourse after Jesus's birth, that in itself wouldn't prove Mary bore more children because, for example, having vaginal intercourse doesn't lead to procreation for some men and women." In other words, sometimes the woman is barren or the man is sterile, etc. Food for thought since you consider Matt. 1:25 proof Joseph and Mary conceived children together.

Well then let me be direct. Yes, just because Mary and Joseph had sex after jesus was born does not prove other children.

But use of the term first born strongly implies a second born and possibly more, and coupled with Matthew 13 it shows jesus had four half brothers and at least 2 half sisters.

(i) Show when "kinsman," e.g., sibling, cousin, uncle, etc., was abandoned as a definition of the word "ἀδελφός" (adelphos) post-Septuagint and pre-New Testament.

(ii) Explain why there are Lexicons, e.g., Lidell-Scott-Jones, Mounce, etc., that include the definition "kinsman" for the word "ἀδελφός" (adelphos) if it was abandoned post-Septuagint and pre-New Testament.

Well when you first show why that James, Joses Simon, and Juda being called brothers must be considered cousins. I cannot explain why. I have not seen these Lexicons of the Septuagint and their rationale for using adelphos for a nephew. But all you have possibly established is it may have been used for a nephew, now show it is used for cousins in light of lexicons and Greek dictionaries and grammar books that do not give this as a use for Koine Greek.

One possibility is that when the Septuagint was written they used "Hebraisms" (Jewish euphemisms) in their writings from the Hebrew. But once again I cannot say for sure without seeing the Lexicons you cite.

Do yopu have these Lexicons by the way?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

(i) Show when "kinsman," e.g., sibling, cousin, uncle, etc., was abandoned as a definition of the word "ἀδελφός" (adelphos) post-Septuagint and pre-New Testament.

The hebrew word in Gen. 13:8 is "ahim" and is in English the following:

alike (1), another (16), brethren (17), brother (218), brother with his brothers (1), brother's (21), brotherhood (1), brothers (195), brothers' (1), companions (1), countryman (10), countryman's (2), countrymen (10), fellow (2), fellow countryman (3), fellow countrymen (2), fellows (1), kinsman (3), kinsmen (27), nephew* (2), other (7), relative (7), relatives (80).

I cannot answer why the 70 who translated the Septuagint used adelphos. I can only speculate. but that in no way proves Mt. 13 is Jesus cousins and and female cousins. It only opens the door for a possibility. You need to show th epossibility is an actuality through SCripture.

 

[David in NJ]

Reader, do you believe Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were His siblings?

If so, consider the following:

(i) It's not stated in Scripture that Jesus had siblings, but rather "brothers."

(ii) The words "brother" and "sister" have multiple definitions, e.g., fellow-countryman, disciple/follower, one of the same faith, and "kinsman," etc.

(iii) The context of Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4 does show the meaning "kinsman," e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc., applies to Jesus's brothers and sisters mentioned in those verses. However, information that can help determine the type of kinship between Jesus and those kinsmen and kinswomen is lacking in those same verses.

In this post, I've provided evidence that confirms Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's brothers, as in kinsmen, and shows that the type of kinship between them and Jesus was that of cousins, not siblings.
This was accomplished primarily by identifying James.


Early Christian and Scriptural References​

I. "Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphaeus (Clopas), who was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus (Jude/Judas), and of one Joseph." (Papias of Hierapolis [c. 60–130 AD], Fragments of Papias, Frag. 10, cf. Jn. 19:25)

II. "...James, who is called the brother of the Lord ... as appears to me, the son of Mary sister of the mother of our Lord ... after ordained by the apostles bishop of Jerusalem, wrote a single epistle, which is reckoned among the seven Catholic epistles" (cf. Jud. 1:1) and "...Mary who is described as the mother of James the Less was the wife of Alphaeus and sister of Mary the Lord's mother" (Jerome of Stridon [c. 347–420 CE], De Viris Illustribus, De Perpetua Uirginitate Beatae Mariae, cf. Jn. 19:25)

III. Eusebius of Caesarea [c. 260–340 AD] relates the following in his Historia Ecclesiastica:

James, the brother of the Lord, was the "...author of the first of the so-called catholic epistles" and that while it is disputed, "as is the case likewise with the epistle that bears the name of Jude, which is also one of the seven so-called catholic epistles," it is known they have been "...read publicly in very many churches." (Bk. I, ch. 23, cf. Jud. 1:1)

"James ... surnamed the Just ... bishop of the church of Jerusalem. This James was called the brother of the Lord..." and "Paul also makes mention of the same James the Just, where he writes, 'Other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.'" (Bk. II, ch. 1)

"...those of the apostles and disciples of the Lord ... with those that were related to the Lord according to the flesh ... pronounced Symeon (Simon), the son of Clopas ... to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour. For Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph." (Bk. III, ch. 11)

"Josephus, at least, has not hesitated to testify this in his writings, where he says, 'These things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just, who was a brother of Jesus, that is called the Christ.'" (Bk. II, ch. 23)

"...the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" (Flavius Josephus [c. 37-100 CE], Antiquitates Iudaicae, Bk. XX, ch. 9)

"...James the Just bishop of Jerusalem" and "...but there were two Jameses: one called the Just ... thrown from the pinnacle of the temple ... and beaten to death with a club by a fuller, and another who was beheaded." (Bk. II, ch. 1) (Clement of Alexandria [c. 150–215 AD], Hypotyposes, Bk. VII, cf. Ac. 12:1-2)

"...James the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church ... called the Just ..." (Bk. II, ch. 23) and "after James the Just had suffered martyrdom ... Symeon (Simon), the son of the Lord's uncle, Clopas, was appointed the next bishop ... because he was a cousin of the Lord." (Bk. III, ch. 22) (Hegesippus [c. 110-180 AD], Hypomnemata)

Additional Scriptural Support

The teaching that Mary of Cleophas/Clopas (Alphaeus) was the mother of Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), as well as the sister-in-law of Jesus's mother, Mary of Joseph, can be further supported by these verses:

"his (Jesus's) mother's sister, Mary of Cleophas" (Jn. 19:25)
"Mary, mother of James" (Mk. 16:1)
"Mary of James" (Lk. 24:10)
"Mary, mother of James and Joseph" (Matt. 27:56)
"Mary, mother of James the Less and Joseph" (Mk. 15:40)


If, at the very least, you agree that "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 63 and the apostle "James" in Gal. 1:19 were the same person,
consider the following about two of the twelve apostles named "James:"
​

Apostle James, son of Zebedee, whose brother [sibling] was Apostle John, and their mother is only known to have been the mother of "the sons of Zebedee." It's indisputable that of the two, this James-apostle doesn't correlate with the "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 1:19. (Matt. 4:21;20:20;27:56, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10, Ac. 12:1-2)

Apostle James, son of Alphaeus, whose brothers [siblings] were Apostle Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) and Joseph. It's indisputable that of the two, this James-apostle correlates more with "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 1:19. (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13)

Summary

Papias of Hierapolis [c. 60–130 AD] indicated "Apostle James of Alphaeus" and "James the bishop of Jerusalem" were the same person, as well as the brother [sibling] of Simon, Joseph, and Jude (Judas/Thaddeus), and that these four were the sons of Mary and Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas). (Fragments of Papias, Frag. 10)

Jerome of Stridon [c. 347–420 CE] indicated "James the bishop of Jerusalem," "James the brother of the Lord," "James the Less," and the "author of the Epistle of James," were the same person. He also said this James was the son of Jesus's mother's sister, Mary the wife of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas, cf. Jn. 19:25), which coincides with Papias's testimony, and thus Jerome would've known he was Apostle James of Alphaeus as well. (De Viris Illustribus, De Perpetua Uirginitate Beatae Mariae)

Eusebius of Caesarea [c. 260–340 AD] indicated "James the bishop of Jerusalem," "James the brother of the Lord," "James the Just," and the "author of the Epistle of James," were the same person. He also said, "Apostle Paul makes mention of the same James the Just, where he writes, 'Other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.'" (Historia Ecclesiastica, Bk. I, ch. 23, Bk. II, ch. 1)

Clement of Alexandria [c. 150–215 AD] indicated "James the bishop of Jerusalem" and "James the Just" were the same person. (Hypotyposes, Bk. VII)

Flavius Josephus [c. 37-100 CE] indicated "James the brother of the Lord" and "James the Just" were the same person. (Antiquitates Iudaicae, Bk. XX, ch. 9)

Hegesippus [c. 110-180 AD] indicated "James the brother of the Lord" and "James the Just" were the same person. (Hypomnemata)


The scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, collectively show "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, "James the brother of the Lord," "James the bishop of Jerusalem," "James the Less," "James the Just," and the author of the Epistle of James, were the same person as Apostle James of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), the son of the brother [sibling] of Jesus's mother's spouse, and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the kinsmen, specifically cousins, of Jesus.​

Mary was married to Joseph and after Jesus was born they fulfilled God's Commandment in the marriage and had joyful sexual relations that resulted in Mary being pregnant from Joseph and having children.