What about the two Witnesses ?

[101G]

I believe the fire will be literal from the two witnesses, however it will be in their "Words Spoken" just as Elijah called fire down from heaven that consumed the sacrifice. I don't believe the future two witnesses are fire breathing dragons, fire from a literal mouth.

Have you changed to a "Preterist" eschatology, Matthew 24 and the Olivet discourse?

no, the spoken words of God is the fire. let the bible answer itself, Jeremiah 5:14 "Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them".

and ... (SMILE), no I'm not a Preterist, that type of doctrine I have debunked a long time ago.

PCY.

 

[Truth7t7]

no, the spoken words of God is the fire. let the bible answer itself, Jeremiah 5:14 "Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them".

and ... (SMILE), no I'm not a Preterist, that type of doctrine I have debunked a long time ago.

PCY.

Well we will disagree, I believe two literal prophets returned, literal plagues of no rain, water to blood, and literal bodies that will lay in a street in Jerusalem, and literal people in this world that will be tormented by the plagues, and celebrate when they die.

"LITERAL" just as Moses, Aaron, and the Plagues of Egypt were literal.

We Disagree

Revelation 11:3-11KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

 

[101G]

Well we will disagree, I believe two literal prophets returned, literal plagues of no rain, water to blood, and literal bodies that will lay in a street in Jerusalem, and literal people in this world that will be tormented by the plagues, and celebrate when they die.

"LITERAL" just as Moses, Aaron, and the Plagues of Egypt were literal.

We Disagree

Revelation 11:3-11KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Then we disagree..... .

Pcy

 

[ScottA]

The answer to this has been updated in the leading unto all truth by the Holy Spirit since Christ ascended on high, according to His promise:

1 John 5:7
"For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one."

1 John 5:8
"And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one."

The two [witnesses] have given way to three..."Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight." The water and the blood, which are the world and the man, have witnessed of His coming, and He has come. Hallelujah!

The personification of the two has been no different than the personification of God whom is spirit, in Christ, and of men who are born of Him. But flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, and the time comes when we shall not slumber as did the apostles, but all shall rise at the voice of Jesus saying, "Rise, let us be going."

Hallelujah!

 

[101G]

The answer to this has been updated in the leading unto all truth by the Holy Spirit since Christ ascended on high, according to His promise:

1 John 5:7
"For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one."

1 John 5:8
"And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one."

The two [witnesses] have given way to three..."Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight." The water and the blood, which are the world and the man, have witnessed of His coming, and He has come. Hallelujah!

The personification of the two has been no different than the personification of God whom is spirit, in Christ, and of men who are born of Him. But flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, and the time comes when we shall not slumber as did the apostles, but all shall rise at the voice of Jesus saying, "Rise, let us be going."

Hallelujah!

Agreed, but may I add something to the conversation... I'll start with 1 John 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one." m,any say that this is three that make up a trinity. I must disagree, and here's why. man is a two, let me explain. the Spirit, the water, and the blood . ONLY two are of man, the WATER = the Body, which we are made of ... over 90%, and the Blood which is the life of the BODY. but the spirit is not man's it God's. scripture,
Ecclesiastes 8:8 "There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it".

WHY NO MAN HAVE POWER OVER THE "spirit" THAT'S IN HIM. BECAUSE IT'S NOT NONE OF HIS.
scripture, Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it".

the spirit in man is owned by God, it is his. another scripture, Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein".

so man is not a trinity.

now,
1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one."
Father, Word, and Holy Spirit are TITLES and not PERSONS. even in the verse itself it says, "these three are one". these, not "THEY" are one. if the scriptures would have said "THEY are one, then game over, pack your bags and go home.

NO, it said "THESE" what? these "TITLES" are held by ONE PERSON.

so in the two witness or any other witness, without God THERE IS NO WITNESS.

I hoped that helped.

 

[Jun2u]

I have not seen a discussion about the Two Witnesses. ( I may have missed one )
I have seen them mentioned from time to time. Of the end time Prophecy's they have to be the big one.

" I will send my two witnesses before the great and terrible day of the Lord "
As I remember, They will show up five days before the antichrist is revealed. and that will start the 7yr. tribulation.

Yes, you have missed the discussions about the Two Witnesses in the past on these forums. Yet, up until today, no one has recognized the identity of the Two Witnesses at least not in these forums. All have made guesses and speculations.

I know of many other Christians who have known the identity of the Two Witnesses. I believe others miss the mark because they do not take into account the number “two” which is the “key” word that needs to be searched out in Scripture in solving the identity of the Two Witnesses.

I can’t seem to find the quote, “I will send my two witnesses before the great and terrible day of the Lord” which you have quoted above.

And, “they will show up five days before the antichrist is revealed that will start the 7yr. Tribulation.”

I’m truly amazed where these ideas come out from the minds of “Christians” which are foreign to the Bible. Either, they are lacking in studies and that the Holy Spirit has not opened their spiritual eyes.

To God Be The Glory

 

[101G]

I can’t seem to find the quote, “I will send my two witnesses before the great and terrible day of the Lord” which you have quoted above.

And, “they will show up five days before the antichrist is revealed that will start the 7yr. Tribulation.”

GINOLJC to Jun2u,
I'm aware of the LORD messenger coming before him which is Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts".

and that John the Baptist as Elijah, but that is only ONE.

but not saying that you're right or wrong, where do it say in the bible that the two witnesses show up Five day before the antichrist? book, chapter and verse.

and the only Great a terrible Day of LORD during any time near the two witness is the Day of the LORD on sin, which was accomplished at the cross.

PCY

 

[Jun2u]

GINOLJC to Jun2u,
I'm aware of the LORD messenger coming before him which is Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts".

and that John the Baptist as Elijah, but that is only ONE.

but not saying that you're right or wrong, where do it say in the bible that the two witnesses show up Five day before the antichrist? book, chapter and verse.

and the only Great a terrible Day of LORD during any time near the two witness is the Day of the LORD on sin, which was accomplished at the cross.

PCY[/QUOTE]


I am very familiar with Mal 3:1. Without a doubt, the first "messenger" represents John the Baptist, and the second represents Christ, Himself, for He is the "messenger of the covenant." But how did you get John the Baptist as Elijah?

I was actually responding to Pompadour's post and below is what I've stated and asked of him.

"I can’t seem to find the quote, “I will send my two witnesses before the great and terrible day of the Lord” which you have quoted above.

And, “they will show up five days before the antichrist is revealed that will start the 7yr. Tribulation."

Note how the two paragraphs above are connected to each other with the conjunction word "and." Just as you did likewise with the first and second paragraphs of your post. In other words, I said I couldn't find the passages he quoted anywhere in Scripture because they are not written in Scriptures.

I have to disagree with your last paragraph. The phrase "Day of the Lord" or the "Lord's Day" is a synonym for "Judgment Day."

The cross is of happy times for all true believers for that is the joyous time when our sins have been redeemed!

To God Be The Glory

 

[101G]

to Jun2u,
first thanks for the reply, may God bless you, for your question.

"But how did you get John the Baptist as Elijah". I got John in several way.

A. John 1:6 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

B. Isaiah 40:3 "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God".

and John confirm this himself, John 1:21 "And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
John 1:22 "Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
John 1:23 "He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
and Malachi 3:1 tells us who this messenger is, John the Baptist the Elijah to come. and the Lord Jesus said that it was Elijah that came, READ #C below, and the Lord Jesus don't LIE. now if the Lord Jesus said that Elijah had already come, well case closed for me.

C. Directly by the Lord Jesus himself. Matthew 17:10-13 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist”.

there are many more verses that point to John as the Elijah in Spirit and Power. when the Lord, ... God said that it's John the Baptist, I need not to go any further.

PCY.

 

[Helen]

Yes! My Guess is kinda Firm, just not completely sure??

My guess is that it is not two 'men'...but two companies of 'men'.

The saints overcoming of the OT and the overcoming saints of the NT.

Witnesses to the Victory of Jesus Christ.

How do you like them apples!???

 

[Truth7t7]

My guess is that it is not two 'men'...but two companies of 'men'.

The saints overcoming of the OT and the overcoming saints of the NT.

Witnesses to the Victory of Jesus Christ.

How do you like them apples!???

The scripture suggest that the two prophets have physical bodies that will die and lay in a physical street in Jerusalem, while a literal world watches in joy, and exchane literal gifts?

Grace do you believe the plagues in Egypt as recorded in Exodus actually happened?

Do you believe in a literal destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah by fire?

Revelation 11:8-10KJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

 

[101G]

The scripture suggest that the two prophets have physical bodies that will die and lay in a physical street in Jerusalem, while a literal world watches in joy, and exchane literal gifts?

theses events have already happen.

street violence is nothing new under the sun. public execution are still going on whether they are justified or not. and their bodies will lay in a place or plat meaning a plot of land (see Matt 27:57-61)

the great city is Jerusalem, not Rome. the supposed holy .... (smile) ... Sodom and Egypt . (see Isaiah 1:10)


and the Jews exchanged gifts... Money, to hush the Guards at the tomb.. (see Matt 28:11-15)

PCY

 

[Truth7t7]

theses events have already happen.

street violence is nothing new under the sun. public execution are still going on whether they are justified or not. and their bodies will lay in a place or plat meaning a plot of land (see Matt 27:57-61)

the great city is Jerusalem, not Rome. the supposed holy .... (smile) ... Sodom and Egypt . (see Isaiah 1:10)


and the Jews exchanged gifts... Money, to hush the Guards at the tomb.. (see Matt 28:11-15)

PCY

Are You A Preterist In Your Eschatology?

 

[101G]

Are You A Preterist In Your Eschatology?

No I'm NOT

PCY

 

[Truth7t7]

theses events have already happen.

street violence is nothing new under the sun. public execution are still going on whether they are justified or not. and their bodies will lay in a place or plat meaning a plot of land (see Matt 27:57-61)

the great city is Jerusalem, not Rome. the supposed holy .... (smile) ... Sodom and Egypt . (see Isaiah 1:10)


and the Jews exchanged gifts... Money, to hush the Guards at the tomb.. (see Matt 28:11-15)

PCY

When in time has Revelation 11:8-10 taken place?

Revelation 11:8-10KJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

 

[101G]

When in time has Revelation 11:8-10 taken place?

Revelation 11:8-10KJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

read post #32

 

[Jun2u]

there are many more verses that point to John as the Elijah in Spirit and Power. when the Lord, ... God said that it's John the Baptist, I need not to go any further.

Thanks for the reminder of Mal 3:1 which I had completely forgotten. I must have had a senior moment. At 79 the brains do not function well anymore. Please, I'm not looking for any excuses. I stand corrected.

But just the same, you still have yet to identify who or what is the Two Witnesses.

Hint: the key to identifying the Two Witnesses can be found in Revelation 2.

To God Be The Glory

 

[101G]

Thanks for the reminder of Mal 3:1 which I had completely forgotten. I must have had a senior moment. At 79 the brains do not function well anymore. Please, I'm not looking for any excuses. I stand corrected.

But just the same, you still have yet to identify who or what is the Two Witnesses.

Hint: the key to identifying the Two Witnesses can be found in Revelation 2.

To God Be The Glory

first thanks for the reply, we all have those moment. but from your posts you're very much sharp in the scripture. as said, Iron sharpen Iron.

I believe I have identify who the Two Witnesses are, again John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus the Christ. these are who the Two Witnesses. and what they witness was the Spirit, "THE TRUTH". and their witness are in the earth realm today.

A. John's Baptism, witness 1.

B. the Lord Jesus Gospel, witness#2.

without both one is still in condemnation.

PCY

 

[GUANO]

If you're going to interpret these scriptures literally then why throw out their description as the two trees which stand before the God of the earth?

Perhaps they're Ents?



On a serious note, I believe that the scriptures of Zechariah and Revelation, the scriptures concerning the Two Witnesses, are actually prophecies about the "Bible"... The Bible is the two witnesses.

 

[Helen]

@GUANO

Welcome to the site.
Good point that you bring up.

If you're going to interpret these scriptures literally then why throw out their description as the two trees which stand before the God of the earth?

I have never believed that they represent just any couple of men...be they Moses, Elijah or whoever .
Even in my youth as a new Christian, it didn't take me long to see that it was deeper than just that.

Amen, good point.