What about the two Witnesses ?

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101G

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[QUOTE="bbyrd009, post: 407022, member: 7326"]hmm. i dunno bout this, if blood can cry from the ground. Spiritually speaking a dead man can witness imo.

I must disagree, only to God but not men.

Hitler provides a witness for us today, as does M Gandhi i think

but are they the two witness. has any turned water into wine? book chapter and verse please.

these are the same preposition in Hebrew; same word


then you gotta ask why all the coyness at IDing them then? Wadr imo you are 2+2=5 here
(smile)... no, only 1 +1 here= 2
[/QUOTE]
 

101G

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how do you support this? Imo this is really reaching
No stretching, please name one person who was Spiritually alive at the time of the Lord Jesus and John the Baptist when they walked the earth. book chapter and verse please.
 

GUANO

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Thanks for those verses.

#1. these two I can go with, but, a little iffy, but I can go with that because understand INDIVIDUAL men, meaning (males and Females) are either Olives trees, or wild grapes, or briers and thorns.

do you understand this? listen, Israel as a Nation, is look upon as a vineyard of a variety of Plants, not just olives, but grapes as well. I'll point this out later in the topic. when I get to it I'll remind you with these "****" ok.


#2. I hope you're not using this passage of scripture in your Identity as to where the two witness come from, because if you do, Jeremiah 11:16 "The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
Jeremiah 11:17 "For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

see he CALLED them a Olive tree, but turn out to be thorn and briers
let's check the record, Isaiah 5:3 "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.

Isaiah 5:4 "What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

Isaiah 5:5 "And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:

Isaiah 5:6 "And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

Isaiah 5:7 "For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.


#3. WELL, WELL, WELL, you left something out. you left out the "remnant" the vine which the TRUE VINE is to come. listen, Isaiah 17:6 "Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the LORD God of Israel".
AS, AS, AS, the shaking of an olive tree, but is not . see grapes are not olives.


here again as, the olive tree. the olive is "A" individual person, not a nation.



see there is no tree in Israel any moer ... NOT OUTSIDE THE LORD JESUS, listen,
John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

John 15:2 "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. (SEE, you're not a tree but a branch, understand now)

John 15:3 "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

John 15:4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 15:5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".

see, if is a man abide. but in Isaiah 5:7 "For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant

there is no more a plant, why because the tree have been cut foo, listen, Zechariah 6:12 "And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD". this is the ROOT out of dry ground".


a testament is "a", "A", "a", witness, meaning an "INDIVIDUAL" for a covenant consist of two person.

so an INDIVIDUAL is one each of the two witness.

Hope this helped.


I could go back and fourth with you on this all day. You have a good understanding of how prophetic symbolism works and that's refreshing. But you're stretching a few of the finer points, The Bible is a single medium, a single testimony... a a a a a a a a a a a Witness :)
Remember, a Witness is not a person, it's a 'thing'... A person is "called" a witness during a magical rite held in this thing we like to call a 'court', but the Bible isn't using Western Esoteric Language. It's using common language and when you research the etymology of μάρτυς itself, it's Pre-Greek. It's not a formal term in the legal sense....

I do not believe that scripture supports an individual as a tree from the 3rd heaven perspective which is the realm in both Revelation and Zechariah as well as the scriptures I posted. Trees are given AS families, groups, institutions---whatever it is in context to the object of the prophecy (which is usually a Nation). Individuals are 'blades' or 'buds' and those buds 'flower' and 'produce fruit' (which are works)...

Prophetic orations from the context of the first person can certainly use trees as individuals, but the subject is clear in the prophecy as to whether it pertains to a group or individual... "And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper." <---that certainly pertains to an individual---but could pertain to a group as well if a 'family' or 'organization' were to collectively live by the principles given in this scripture.

You seem to refute your self in some of these scriptures, you mention an individual is an individual grape or olive whereas in one of the scriptures you posted it says a an individual is a branch...

Anyways, a good chat. Cheers.
 

101G

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Thanks for the respond, but I must disagree with a few of your assessments.
Remember, a Witness is not a person, it's a 'thing'... A person is "called" a witness during a magical rite held in this thing we like to call a 'court', but the Bible isn't using Western Esoteric Language. It's using common language and when you research the etymology of μάρτυς itself, it's Pre-Greek. It's not a formal term in the legal sense....

A. a witness is a person, who is also a martyr. not in a Court of Law, but in the world.

I do not believe that scripture supports an individual as a tree from the 3rd heaven perspective which is the realm in both Revelation and Zechariah as well as the scriptures I posted. Trees are given AS families, groups, institutions---whatever it is in context to the object of the prophecy (which is usually a Nation). Individuals are 'blades' or 'buds' and those buds 'flower' and 'produce fruit' (which are works)...

I must agree with the first half of your response.
B. Zechariah 4:11 "Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

Zechariah 4:12 "And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

Zechariah 4:13 "And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zechariah 4:14 "Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

see that word "ONES" here in verse 14, listen to the definition of ONES: a single person or thing, viewed as taking the place of a group. plural noun: ones. I suggest you google "ones". so the group or family thing is out.

I just used your Prophet scriptures, and there are many more example.

in Christ Jesus we're the branches of ONE VINE, there are no groups or families in Christ.

yes, this is a good civil conversation, thanks.
 

bbyrd009

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I must disagree, only to God but not men.
hmm, tryna think if it matters to your point or not...but i mean courts even accept dying declarations 101, just seems to me you're working yourself into a corner there. Spirit, water, and blood can be witnesses too i guess
 

GUANO

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see that word "ONES" here in verse 14, listen to the definition of ONES: a single person or thing, viewed as taking the place of a group. plural noun: ones. I suggest you google "ones". so the group or family thing is out.

Funny you say that:

The Hebrew word "ben", translated here as "ones" is translated as such less than 5 times in the whole of scripture...
Screen Shot 2018-06-07 at 8.04.20 AM.png
Screen Shot 2018-06-07 at 7.41.40 AM.png

The best way to understand the meaning here, in the context of a "tree" is:

Screen Shot 2018-06-07 at 8.12.35 AM.png
 

pompadour

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Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man. Man was not made for the Sabbath. Jesus became the Sabbath. The Sabbath is Rest.

We need the faith of a child to except Jesus and the bible. Jesus talked a lot about Faith. Jesus didn't like the pharisees because they made the law more important then God. They complicated every thing and muddied the waters and made the law a burden.
We do that now, we get so far into the weeds that no one can find their way back to the straight road.

The two witnesses are appointed for the end time, and not some past historic event. The book of Rev. is a book about the end times.
Pomp.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Since Christian witnesses testify of Christ, how can He be one of the witnesses? And since He died only once for sins for ever, He cannot die again.

And since John the Baptist denied that he was Elijah, but came "in the spirit and power of Elijah", then it is Elijah himself who must surely come to earth when the Antichrist takes control. It is prophesied that he will come to earth before the Day of the LORD, and so it shall be.

And since it was Moses and Elijah would came to communicate with Christ at His Transfiguration, it is Moses and Elijah who will come to earth as the two Witnesses (who are also two prophets). The judgments that they bring to earth are a reflection of the judgments they brought while they lived on earth.

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not [Elijah] in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, [Moses] as often as they will. (Rev 11:6)


Who are the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation chapter 11?
Revelation 11:3 speaks of two witnesses who would prophesy for 1,260 days. The account then says that the wild beast would “conquer them and kill them.” But after “three and a half days,” these two witnesses would be brought back to life, much to the amazement of all onlookers. —Rev. 11:7, 11.

Who are these two witnesses? The details of the account help us to identify them. First, we are told that they “are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands.” (Rev. 11:4) This reminds us of the lampstand and two olive trees described in the prophecy of Zechariah. Those olive trees were said to picture “the two anointed ones,” that is, Governor Zerubbabel and High Priest Joshua, “standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth.” (Zech. 4:1-3, 14) Second, the two witnesses are described as performing signs similar to those performed by Moses and Elijah. —Compare Revelation 11:5, 6 with Numbers 16:1-7, 28-35 and 1 Kings 17:1; 18:41-45.

What is the common denominator that links these references? In each case, the account refers to God’s anointed ones who took the lead during a difficult time of testing. So in the fulfillment of Revelation chapter 11, the anointed brothers who took the lead at the time of the establishment of God’s Kingdom in heaven in 1914 preached “in sackcloth” for three and a half years.

At the end of their preaching in sackcloth, these anointed ones were symbolically killed when they were thrown into prison for a comparatively shorter period of time, a symbolic three and a half days. In the eyes of the enemies of God’s people, their work had been killed, causing those opponents much joy. —Rev. 11:8-10.

However, true to the words of the prophecy, at the end of the three and a half days, the two witnesses were brought back to life. Not only were these anointed ones released from prison but those who remained faithful received a special appointment from God through their Lord, Jesus Christ. In 1919 they were among those who were appointed to serve as a “faithful and discreet slave” to care for the spiritual needs of God’s people during the last days. —Matt. 24:45-47; Rev. 11:11, 12.

Interestingly, Revelation 11:1, 2 links these events to a time when the spiritual temple would be measured, or evaluated. Malachi chapter 3 mentions a similar inspection of the spiritual temple, followed by a time of cleansing. (Mal. 3:1-4) How long did this inspection and cleansing work take? It extended from 1914 to the early part of 1919. This period of time includes both the 1,260 days (42 months) and the symbolic three and a half days referred to in Revelation chapter 11.

How happy we are that Jehovah arranged for this spiritual refining work to cleanse a special people for fine works! (Titus 2:14) Additionally, we appreciate the example set by the faithful anointed ones who took the lead during that time of testing and thereby served as the symbolic two witnesses.*
 

Davy

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The two witnesses have to be two flesh men that have never died. Moses did die and his body buried by God. Elijah was taken to heaven, yet he was shown having been transfigured on the mount of transfiguration, that essentially leaves him out.

Rev 11:9
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

KJV

That part in red reveals the minimum timeframe when that event will happen. How can it be possible for peoples of ALL nations to see the dead bodies of those two witnesses left laying in the street? It's called satellite technology. So that event could never happen prior to satellite technology being invented.

Rev 11:4
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
KJV


The two witnesses (two men) are not alone, as the candlesticks symbol Jesus defined back in the Revelation 1 chapter as the seven Churches. Thus the "two candlesticks" also represent two Churches. Which two Churches in Rev.2 & 3 did Jesus have no problem with?



I have not seen a discussion about the Two Witnesses. ( I may have missed one )
I have seen them mentioned from time to time. Of the end time Prophecy's they have to be the big one.

" I will send my two witnesses before the great and terrible day of the Lord "
As I remember, They will show up five days before the antichrist is revealed. and that will start the 7yr. tribulation.

That will be an in your face prophecy that will tell every one where we are in history. No if, and, or buts or about it.
There is some debate about who they are. Elisa should be one of them. Maybe Moses or Enoch.
For sure they will be shaking things up for three and a half yrs.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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The mount of transfiguration is a bug clue for me. But some people think maybe Enoch because he was taken alive to Heaven like Elisha.

The Bible tells us that no man has gone into heaven before Jesus at John 3:13 and the scriptures at Hebrews 11:13 tell us all the men of faith it's discussing at chapter 11 of Hebrews died.
 

pompadour

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The parable of the rich man and the beggar. they both died. The rich man was in a hot place ( hell ? ) and the beggar was in the a nice place, ( heaven ? ) they could see each other and talk to each other. this was before Jesus died.
Elisha was taken up in a cloud.( Alive or dead ? ) Moses died and was taken and buried by God. Moses and Elisha were on the mount of transfiguration. If Moses is one of the two witnesses he will have to die twice. ( we have a problem )
I think it will be Moses and Elisha. If that is the case I'm sure God could figure a way around the dying twice. problem if he wants to. Elisha is the only one of the two witnesses named. No one knows who the other one is.
Pomp.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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The parable of the rich man and the beggar. they both died. The rich man was in a hot place ( hell ? ) and the beggar was in the a nice place, ( heaven ? ) they could see each other and talk to each other. this was before Jesus died.
Elisha was taken up in a cloud.( Alive or dead ? ) Moses died and was taken and buried by God. Moses and Elisha were on the mount of transfiguration. If Moses is one of the two witnesses he will have to die twice. ( we have a problem )
I think it will be Moses and Elisha. If that is the case I'm sure God could figure a way around the dying twice. problem if he wants to. Elisha is the only one of the two witnesses named. No one knows who the other one is.
Pomp.

At the book of Hebrews chapter 11 it talks about the men of faith of old testament times and at verse 13 it said all these men of faith died. Also it tells us at John 3:13 that no one went into heaven before Jesus. You can deny these scriptures or interpret them any other way and it will only show me how people will interpret scriptures in a way that goes along with their preconceived beliefs. Of course such people will say the same about me, but they still will not convince me they are right as long as they ignore or what I believe is twisting scriptures.