What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

[Wrangler]

Well, when you bow your knee to Him and see Him face to face, you can tell Him that!

Telling the son of God he is not God is no bigger deal than telling Hunter that he is not the President.

If I were to tell that to Hunter - or any son - I can imagine how befuddled he’d be that one would feel it necessary to state the obvious.

Speaking of which, you are so adamant that Jesus is God, you forgot to answer the OP question; why is it important to make Jesus God? (What commandment does it fulfill?, etc)

 

[Dropship]

"Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God" (1 John 5:5)

 

[Wrangler]

"Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God" (1 John 5:5)

Trinitarians want to invent new definitions, rules of logic and language usage if that is what it takes to support their doctrine.

Scripture say 'son of God.' They read this as 'God the son' (and jettison the pesky 'of'). Only one very uneducated, only one very idoctrinated could possibly think converses - and elimination of whole words (of) in sacred text - are synonyms.

THEN, they have the audicity to claim superiority, like, 'if you cannot discern the word as we do, then you are spiritually immature', etc.

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus prayed to God “not my will, but yours, be done” because Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42; John 5:30). They would have one will if Jesus and the Father are the same “one God.” Trinitarian doctrine claims that Luke is referring to the human will of Jesus, and not his divine will, but that is problematic because the Bible never says anything like that or even hints that Jesus had two wills in conflict with each other inside him allowing one to be human and the other to be divine.

The Bible says Jesus is an “heir” of God (Hebrew 1:2), and a “joint-heir” with us (Romans 8:17). But if Christ is a co-eternal “Person” in the “Godhead” then he cannot be an heir “of God” because being God would put him into a position to be a full owner of everything and that would mean there would be nothing he could “inherit” which is why Jesus cannot be God and an heir of God at the same time. The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the “image of God” Colossians 1:15; 2 Corinthians 4:4). If Christ is the image of God, then he cannot be God because a person cannot be himself and an image of himself at the same time. Jesus can be called the “image” of God because he always did the will of God, and because he was the image of God is why he could say you had seen the Father if you had seen him.

Ephesians 4:4-6 says there is one God and one Lord and one spirit. This verse teaches exactly what the Jews expected based on the Old Testament and what Jesus, Peter, Paul, and others taught: that there was one God, one Lord, and one spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 8:6 says “for us there is one God, the Father… and one Lord, Jesus Christ.” This simple and straightforward language elucidates that the Father is God and the Son is “Lord” making a clear differentiation between the two.

Jesus said: “…the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). In contrast, the orthodox formula of the Trinity says the Father and the Son are “co-equal.” God is greater than Christ, just as Christ is greater than we are. 1 Corinthians 3:23 says “And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.” When the Bible says “you are Christ’s” it's saying “you belong to Christ” and many English versions say exactly that (i.e., CJB; HCSB; NASB; NET; NJB; NLT). So the verse is saying “and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God” (NASB). It seems apparent that Jesus cannot be God and belong to God at the same time.

 

[Dropship]

What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

It's a vanity thing, the "Jesus was God" brigade get a kick out of thinking they're right and the rest of us poor dummies are wrong..
Shrinks can explain it better than me-

THE RIGHT MAN SYNDROME
The "Right Man" [and woman] think they're right because they carry "secret knowledge".
Their catch-phrase is: "There is nothing wrong with me; it is everyone else that is at fault."
The "Right Man" must always have his way and is afraid of losing face above all ("How dare you talk to me this way?"): anything that might be an indication of his/her infallibility or erroneous ways is something that he can never admit.
And if things don't exactly go his way, he may try to scare people into submission by breaking into outbursts of rage..
http://www.23nlpeople.com/treatment/anger-hypnotherapy-nlp.html

 

[Kermos]

Neat trick since he never had his deity for one moment, GIVEN he is a man (not merely in the form of a man) and there is no trinity in Scripture - not the word, not the concept.

Jesus reveals Himself as truly God and truly Man at His discretion.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

When Jesus says "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38), then according to the Jesus, truly Man, Jesus does the will of the Father who sent the Son.

When Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), then according to the Jesus, truly God, Jesus exists in eternity past which means Jesus is uncreated thus Jesus proclaims that Jesus is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one in God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

People who do not believe that Jesus is God are people who are not blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God, so such people cannot see the Kingdom of God nor even King Jesus (John 3:3-8) for Who He is. You do not believe that Jesus is God.

Jesus is "I AM" before Jesus was begotten.

Jesus, truly God, always exists "before Abraham" as "I AM" (John 8:58) prior to Mary being told the beget event of Jesus, truly Man, prophecy by Gabriel "you will conceive in your womb and bear a Son" (Luke 1:34); therefore, Jesus is YHWH God.

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus reveals Himself as truly God and truly Man at His discretion.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

When Jesus says "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38), then according to the Jesus, truly Man, Jesus does the will of the Father who sent the Son.

When Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), then according to the Jesus, truly God, Jesus exists in eternity past which means Jesus is uncreated thus Jesus proclaims that Jesus is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one in God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

People who do not believe that Jesus is God are people who are not blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God, so such people cannot see the Kingdom of God nor even King Jesus (John 3:3-8) for Who He is. You do not believe that Jesus is God.

Jesus is "I AM" before Jesus was begotten.

Jesus, truly God, always exists "before Abraham" as "I AM" (John 8:58) prior to Mary being told the beget event of Jesus, truly Man, prophecy by Gabriel "you will conceive in your womb and bear a Son" (Luke 1:34); therefore, Jesus is YHWH God.

The Old Testament referred to the Messiah as the servant of God, and we see this in Isaiah 52-53, which speaks of the suffering and death of the Messiah when referring to the Messiah as God’s “servant.” They called King David God’s “servant” when the disciples prayed to God in Acts 4:25 and later in that same prayer they called Jesus “your holy servant” (Acts 4:30) CSB; ESV; NAB; NASB; NET; NIV; NJB). They equated the Messiah as a servant of God just like David was rather than referring to Jesus as if he was God himself. There are many verses indicating that the power and authority Jesus had was given to him by the Father. Jesus Christ would have always had those things that the Scripture says he was “given” if he was the eternal God. Christ was:

• Given “all authority” Matthew 28:18).
• Given “a name above every name” (Philippians 2:9).
• Given work to finish by the Father (John 5:36).
• Given those who believed in him by the Father (John 6:39, 10:29).
• Given glory (John 17:22, 24).
• Given his “cup” [his torture and death] by the Father (John 18:11).
• “Seated” at God’s own right hand (Ephesians 1:20-21).
• “Appointed” over the Church (Ephesians 1:22).

These verses and others like them make no sense if Christ is “co-equal” with the Father because taken at face value they show Jesus is a man approved of God.

 

[BeyondET]

The Old Testament referred to the Messiah as the servant of God, and we see this in Isaiah 52-53, which speaks of the suffering and death of the Messiah when referring to the Messiah as God’s “servant.” They called King David God’s “servant” when the disciples prayed to God in Acts 4:25 and later in that same prayer they called Jesus “your holy servant” (Acts 4:30) CSB; ESV; NAB; NASB; NET; NIV; NJB). They equated the Messiah as a servant of God just like David was rather than referring to Jesus as if he was God himself. There are many verses indicating that the power and authority Jesus had was given to him by the Father. Jesus Christ would have always had those things that the Scripture says he was “given” if he was the eternal God. Christ was:

• Given “all authority” Matthew 28:18).
• Given “a name above every name” (Philippians 2:9).
• Given work to finish by the Father (John 5:36).
• Given those who believed in him by the Father (John 6:39, 10:29).
• Given glory (John 17:22, 24).
• Given his “cup” [his torture and death] by the Father (John 18:11).
• “Seated” at God’s own right hand (Ephesians 1:20-21).
• “Appointed” over the Church (Ephesians 1:22).

These verses and others like them make no sense if Christ is “co-equal” with the Father because taken at face value they show Jesus is a man approved of God.

I like verse 14 in Isaiah shows he wasn't in the visage or form of men but God which is the image and likeness of man.

 

[BeyondET]

Jesus reveals Himself as truly God and truly Man at His discretion.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

When Jesus says "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38), then according to the Jesus, truly Man, Jesus does the will of the Father who sent the Son.

When Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), then according to the Jesus, truly God, Jesus exists in eternity past which means Jesus is uncreated thus Jesus proclaims that Jesus is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one in God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

People who do not believe that Jesus is God are people who are not blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God, so such people cannot see the Kingdom of God nor even King Jesus (John 3:3-8) for Who He is. You do not believe that Jesus is God.

Jesus is "I AM" before Jesus was begotten.

Jesus, truly God, always exists "before Abraham" as "I AM" (John 8:58) prior to Mary being told the beget event of Jesus, truly Man, prophecy by Gabriel "you will conceive in your womb and bear a Son" (Luke 1:34); therefore, Jesus is YHWH God.

I like verse 15, imo the image of the visible God in the image and likeness of man.
Colossians 1
15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

 

[GRACE ambassador]

op: "make Jesus God"?

We, who believe in The Triune GodHead Of The Scriptures do
not "make" Jesus anything. He Already Is Who He IS! Amen?

Now, IF the NWT is the only authority there is, then we question:

Contradictions:

1) "the Word Was a god" (jn 1:1)

a) Is "Jesus, a god" YOUR god, and do YOU "obey him"?

b) If "yes" then are you not obeying a "god" that is
not YHWH (Jehovah) God?

c) Isn't that DISOBEYING YHWH (Jehovah) God Who
Plainly And Clearly Commands:

Exo_20:3 "Thou shalt have no OTHER gods before Me."

nwt:
“I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You MUST NOT have any other gods besides me.
​

How then are the "disobedient" saved???

Grace, Peace, And JOY In The One True Triune GodHead!

 

[Kermos]

The Old Testament referred to the Messiah as the servant of God, and we see this in Isaiah 52-53, which speaks of the suffering and death of the Messiah when referring to the Messiah as God’s “servant.” They called King David God’s “servant” when the disciples prayed to God in Acts 4:25 and later in that same prayer they called Jesus “your holy servant” (Acts 4:30) CSB; ESV; NAB; NASB; NET; NIV; NJB). They equated the Messiah as a servant of God just like David was rather than referring to Jesus as if he was God himself. There are many verses indicating that the power and authority Jesus had was given to him by the Father. Jesus Christ would have always had those things that the Scripture says he was “given” if he was the eternal God. Christ was:


Given “all authority” Matthew 28:18).

Given “a name above every name” (Philippians 2:9).

Given work to finish by the Father (John 5:36).

Given those who believed in him by the Father (John 6:39, 10:29).

Given glory (John 17:22, 24).

Given his “cup” [his torture and death] by the Father (John 18:11).

“Seated” at God’s own right hand (Ephesians 1:20-21).

“Appointed” over the Church (Ephesians 1:22).

These verses and others like them make no sense if Christ is “co-equal” with the Father because taken at face value they show Jesus is a man approved of God.

All those verses make perfect sense in respect to Jesus Christ being truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ being truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God - just as was proclaimed with detail in the post to which you replied.

Jesus is Christ, and Jesus is Savior.

You have a mighty big opinion of yourself - you think you're enough of a god to change the Word of God.

For example, You wickedly change the Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) into the word of Peterlag "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I was just God's thought" (Peterlag's heart thought). "I AM" expresses "being", "living", "existing", but you cry "no, no, no, Jesus, you were just a figment in God's brain, you were NOTHING more than that before Abraham was".

 

[Justbobg]

He is man too. 100% man and 100% God. He had to be God too because only God is perfect; there is no mere man--who is not also God--who is perfect. No one else could have provided the perfect sacrifice required of God to make propitiation for our sins (the sacrifices described in Leviticus, those animals "without blemish" pointed to the ultimate sacrifice that Jesus would embody). Since all men are born into sin, being born just a man would automatically disqualify Jesus from being the ultimate atonement for our sins.

If Jesus is not also God, we are still dead in our sins. If one does not trust in a perfect God who has provided atonement for one's sins then one will stand before God without the covering of this righteousness. A man's work--just a human exactly like us--will not be able to provide you the righteousness which God requires in order to stand before him in perfect holiness.

He had to be man too because just as Adam was the representative for those who sinned, there had to be another representative--a second Adam--who can represent us. As God promised in Genesis 3--someone from Adam's line (the seed) would crush the head of the serpent. So that individual had to be, as God had spoken, born from Adam.

I have heard this before 100% man and 100% God . I don’t know where it originated, but what it sounds like Jesus is the only 200% person . You can not have 100% 2x if Jesus is 100 % man then he is 0 % God , if he is 100% God then he is 0 % man . actually it’s not so simple . But God can Indwell a man in measure , and only God knows in my opinion how much a man gets of himself . God decides not the man . Interesting but bad math in my view .

 

[Aunty Jane]

We, who believe in The Triune GodHead Of The Scriptures do
not "make" Jesus anything. He Already Is Who He IS! Amen?

This is absolutely true....yet Jesus did not once say that he was "God the son". He said he was "the son of God".
So how is the son of someone, also the same someone? How can he be "with God" and at the same tine BE God?
How can a mortal human at the same time be an immortal God?
Why is such an important belief not clearly stated? And why does so much scripture contradict the trinity?

Now, IF the NWT is the only authority there is, then we question:

I have seen no mention of the NWT in connection with the OP, who is not a JW.
Its not only JW's who reject the trinity.

Contradictions:

1) "the Word Was a god" (jn 1:1)

a) Is "Jesus, a god" YOUR god, and do YOU "obey him"?​

No, he is not our God but in the true definition of the word "theos", Jesus is "a god"...a 'divinely authorized mighty one' which is what the scriptural indicate is his position in relation to his God and Father.

The primary definition of "theos" (god), according to Strongs is...."a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities".
Jesus is the 'divine' son of the Almighty.....but he is not a 'deity'. We are not told to worship Jesus, but Jesus said we must worship YHWH alone. (Luke 4:5-8)

b) If "yes" then are you not obeying a "god" that is
not YHWH (Jehovah) God?

You worship a god who is not Yahweh....since the scriptures never say that Jesus is God Almighty. Pot/kettle?

c) Isn't that DISOBEYING YHWH (Jehovah) God Who
Plainly And Clearly Commands:

Exo_20:3 "Thou shalt have no OTHER gods before Me."

nwt:
“I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You MUST NOT have any other gods besides me.

Christendom worships a different God to the one Jesus still worships in heaven. (Revelation 3:12)
So, again your argument fails.
​

How then are the "disobedient" saved???

They are not. It is only by obeying the commands of God and his Christ that we can be saved.....we have not broken the first Commandment...trinitarians have. You have a very different "god" to the one Jesus came to teach his disciples about. His God was not a trinity because there was no trinity in Jewish scripture. This was the only scripture used by Jesus and his apostles. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
Since the apostles collectively acknowledged their "one God" as "the Father" and their "one Lord" as "Jesus Christ", it is obvious that they did not worship Jesus. The title "Lord" doesn't mean "God".

Those whom Jesus rejects at the coming judgment, all think that their "Christianity" is the real deal, and even try to remind Jesus of all the things they did 'in his name'.....
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’" (Matthew 7:21-23)

They seem so sure that what they have been doing is "the will of the Father" but Jesus' rejection of them is absolute.
What is the law that they are breaking? The first Commandment....they have two other "gods" in the Father's place. So think again and examine what you hold as truth.....it may well be the opposite.
https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/gods-very-simple-will-under-his-pure-grace.39214/

 

[Kermos]

This is absolutely true....yet Jesus did not once say that he was "God the son". He said he was "the son of God".

The "Equality of the Father and the Son" equates to the Father being God and the Son being God.

Lord Jesus says "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18).

Immediately after Jesus says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30), the very next thing He says is "I showed you many good works from the Father" (John 10:31).

See that God is good alone, and see that good in Jesus as recorded in John 10:31.

Moreover, the Jews response to Jesus' "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) is reminiscent of "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

The Apostle John expressed his very own observations and belief that the Son of God is equal to God according to John's linguistic construction of the sentence (John 5:18); moreover, no one is equal to God except for God and there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4); therefore, Jesus is God.

 

[Kermos]

I like verse 15, imo the image of the visible God in the image and likeness of man.

Colossians 1

15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Sadly, the Watchtower Society people oppose Colossians 1 in context - just like the rest of the "Jesus is not God" world.

Jesus is the Firstborn among many brothers.

The phrase "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 refers to all the born by the Spirit of God persons after the crucifixion of Christ, He being the "Firstborn of all creation".

The context is clear as we look at other verses in Colossians 1 - please take note of the word "increasing".

"which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as in you also since the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth" (Colossians 1:6).

"so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God" (Colossians 1:10).

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

See, the context of "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is the Assembly of God - "He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15).

In context, the "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 refers to the Firstborn of all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

The context is not the creation around the time of Adam or prior to Adam as verse 15 is approached in Colossians 1.

The context up until verse 15 of Colossians 1 is the creation and increasing of the citizenry of the Kingdom of God, even of the building up of the Kingdom of God.

Now, let's focus a little more on Paul's writing subsequent to Colossians 1:15.

While Paul wrote the phrase "all creation" in the sentence "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians1:15), Paul also wrote the phrase "all things" in the sentences "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created through Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16); therefore, Jesus created all things, see the word "all", so Jesus is uncreated. This fits snugly with John 1:3.

See Paul's use of the phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 indicate that Jesus is Creator, and it is revealed that God is Creator (see Genesis 1 to Genesis 3).

Now see Paul's use of the phrase "all things have been created through Him and for Him" in Colossians 1:16 indicates that Jesus was not created because of the phrase "all things" forces the fact that Jesus cannot be a part of the "all things" created - He is separate from the "all things" group thus uncreated.

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 includes all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

See Paul's use of the word "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15, and the context already explained.

Now see Paul's use of the word "firstborn" in Colossians 1:18, "And He is the head of the body, the Assembly, who is the beginning, firstborn out from the dead, so that He might be holding preeminence in all things" (Colossians 1:18).

Paul intensifies and emphasizes that Jesus is the firstborn of the Assembly of God - see that "firstborn" occurs TWICE in the passage.

Paul is not talking about the genesis of Jesus, rather Paul is talking about Jesus being the genesis of the Assembly of God. This fits snugly with John 8:58.

Paul clearly proclaims that Jesus creates everything including the Assembly of God, and Paul clearly proclaims that Jesus creates everything which means that Jesus is uncreated. Again, this fits snugly with John 1:3 (and John 1-5).

Lord Jesus, truly Man, is the firstborn among the Assembly of God as evident in Colossians 1:15 which agrees with John 1:3; moreover, Lord Jesus, truly God, is the perpetually existing creator Lord YHWH of absolutely everything as evident in Colossians 1:15 which agrees with John 8:58.

Paul drives the message home that Jesus is the beginning of the Resurrection with "He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18) - see that Paul intensifies the true meaning of Colossians 1:15 by repeating the point in Colossians 1:18 - the point is that King Jesus, the Son of Man, is the Way (John 14:6) into the Resurrection for all the citizens of God's Kingdom. The "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is specifically all the citizens of God's Kingdom. The "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 specifically refers to the Resurrection, not Jesus being created, but truly Jesus being the Way in the Resurrection!

 

[Aunty Jane]

The "Equality of the Father and the Son" equates to the Father being God and the Son being God.

Does it...? Says who? That is an assumption. Show me the scripture that directly says Jesus is Yahweh.

Lord Jesus says "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18).

Immediately after Jesus says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30), the very next thing He says is "I showed you many good works from the Father" (John 10:31).

See that God is good alone, and see that good in Jesus as recorded in John 10:31.

Another assumption but no clear scripture....If no one is "good" but God alone, then Jesus was dismissing what was said to him when he was addressed as "good teacher".
In context it isn't saying what you want it to....

"As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."
If he was God, then he would be "good" in the superlative sense, so he would be saying 'yes, I am good'....but he said "why do you call ME good" meaning that he was not God....do you have a comprehension problem? You are reading into scripture what you want to believe.

Moreover, the Jews response to Jesus' "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) is reminiscent of "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

Well actually the Jews were not saying that he was claiming to be "YHWH".....he was simply claiming divinity as the "son of God".

Read John 10:31-36 in the Greek Interlinear...
"The ho Jews Ioudaios again palin brought bastazō stones lithos to hina stone lithazō him autos. 32 Jesus Iēsous said apokrinomai to them autos, · ho “ I have shown deiknymi you hymeis many polys noble kalos works ergon from ek the ho Father patēr; for dia which poios one ergon of them autos do you intend to stone lithazō me egō?” 33 The ho Jews Ioudaios answered apokrinomai him autos, “It is not ou for peri a noble kalos work ergon that we intend to stone lithazō you sy but alla for peri blasphemy blasphēmia; · kai it is because hoti you sy, a mere man anthrōpos, are making poieō yourself seautou God theos.”

Jesus was not making himself out to be God ("ho theos") at all in that verse. He had shown them many things "from the Father", not from himself. He did not receive the holy spirit until his baptism when he was given the power to perform miracles. Before then he was just Jesus, the Carpenter Joseph's oldest son.

What he said to the Jews was...

"do legō you hymeis say legō regarding the one whom hos the ho Father patēr consecrated hagiazō and kai sent apostellō into eis the ho world kosmos, ‘ You are blaspheming blasphēmeō,’ because hoti I said legō, ‘ I am eimi the Son hyios of ho God theos’?

The translations that fail to identify "ho theos" as YHWH are failed translations. Look up John 1:1 in the Greek Interlinear and see exactly the same problem....The Word was "with HO THEOS" but he was not "Ho Theos" he was just "theos"...."a god"....a divinely authorized servant of the Most High. (Acts 4:27)

The Apostle John expressed his very own observations and belief that the Son of God is equal to God according to John's linguistic construction of the sentence (John 5:18); moreover, no one is equal to God except for God and there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4); therefore, Jesus is God.

Twisted....
John 5:18...
"This was why dia the ho Jews Ioudaios were seeking zēteō all the more mallon to kill apokteinō him autos, because hoti he not ou only monon used to break lyō the ho Sabbath sabbaton, but alla he legō also kai was calling legō God theos his own idios Father patēr, · ho thus making poieō himself heautou equal isos with ho God theos."

The Jews said that he was 'making himself equal with God by claiming YHWH was his Father.
If claiming to be "the son of God" was blasphemy...then imagine what they would have done if he had claimed to be "God incarnate"!

 

[BeyondET]

The Old Testament referred to the Messiah as the servant of God, and we see this in Isaiah 52-53, which speaks of the suffering and death of the Messiah when referring to the Messiah as God’s “servant.” They called King David God’s “servant” when the disciples prayed to God in Acts 4:25 and later in that same prayer they called Jesus “your holy servant” (Acts 4:30) CSB; ESV; NAB; NASB; NET; NIV; NJB). They equated the Messiah as a servant of God just like David was rather than referring to Jesus as if he was God himself. There are many verses indicating that the power and authority Jesus had was given to him by the Father. Jesus Christ would have always had those things that the Scripture says he was “given” if he was the eternal God. Christ was:

• Given “all authority” Matthew 28:18).
• Given “a name above every name” (Philippians 2:9).
• Given work to finish by the Father (John 5:36).
• Given those who believed in him by the Father (John 6:39, 10:29).
• Given glory (John 17:22, 24).
• Given his “cup” [his torture and death] by the Father (John 18:11).
• “Seated” at God’s own right hand (Ephesians 1:20-21).
• “Appointed” over the Church (Ephesians 1:22).

These verses and others like them make no sense if Christ is “co-equal” with the Father because taken at face value they show Jesus is a man approved of God.

Nothing wrong with God's image and likeness of man is there? He does look like a human.

 

[Peterlag]

Nothing wrong with God's image and likeness of man is there? He does look like a human.

Justbodg wrote in part...

"I have heard of this 100% man and 100% God before. I don’t know where it originated, but it sounds like Jesus is the only 200% person. You cannot have 100% 2x if Jesus is 100% man. Because then he would have to be 0% God. And if he's 100% God. Then he would have to be 0% man."

The orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and the three of them are co-equal, co-eternal, and share the same essence and together those three individual “Persons” are one triune God. The doctrine of the Trinity that Jesus is both 100% God and 100% man and that both the divine nature and his human nature live together in his flesh body is widely believed. Trinitarians who hold to the “classic” definition of the Trinity say Jesus was 100% God and 100% man while on the earth believe differently from Kenotic Trinitarians who believe Jesus set aside his godhood while he was a man on the earth. My question is this: has there ever been any other concept in the history of mankind that was able to use the math and science that God created to ever speak about anything being 100% and also 100% of something else?

 

[Justbobg]

I’m not sure how to answer your question, but I’d say everything is 100 % God created . Simply because with that all that is left is God . But I can’t speak for God . It’s just an observation as a tiny being in the scope of things . Thank God for the scriptures or it would really be dark . But this I do know there is Only 1 God as he has declared through the scriptures, confirmed by Jesus as well . The trinity is a man made doctrine nowhere to be found in the scriptures. The contradiction s are so great I find it amazing people still go with it . Again I thank God for the Scriptures.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

...Thank God for the scriptures or it would really be dark...

Totally agree; living in "The Light" Of The LORD JESUS CHRIST!

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified
In The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided!

Grace, Peace, And JOY!