It also tells me that Jesus himself isn’t a trinitarian, nor are the apostles when they obediently baptize only in the name of Jesus.
What does it tell you?
What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God
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It also tells me that Jesus himself isn’t a trinitarian, nor are the apostles when they obediently baptize only in the name of Jesus.
What does it tell you?
But can you address those ten well-referenced reasons she provided? You didn't. You side-stepped.
Why not examine those verses and explain how your theology counters the simple meaning?
Also-- I do consider you a brother in Christ even though we strongly disagree on this point. This is the best thread and best discussion going on the forum and I think it's awesome that folks can express and present their views here without the need for insult and animosity. Please work toward that end. People have differing views. Differing opinions. It's only that. The moment someone claims high ground it is only hubris stinking up the joint. Don't be that guy. Each of us know only what we believe.
Did any of the prophets do anything like that? Yes, they did.
Did any of the apostles do anything like that? Yes, they did.
Johann
Well-Known Member
...heteros religions and heteros cults, lets be honest here...
1Ki 18:20 So Ahab sent to all the people of Israel and gathered the prophets together at Mount Carmel.
1Ki 18:21 And Elijah came near to all the people and said, “How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.” And the people did not answer him a word.
1Ki 18:22 Then Elijah said to the people, “I, even I only, am left a prophet of the LORD, but Baal's prophets are 450 men.
1Ki 18:23 Let two bulls be given to us, and let them choose one bull for themselves and cut it in pieces and lay it on the wood, but put no fire to it. And I will prepare the other bull and lay it on the wood and put no fire to it.
1Ki 18:24 And you call upon the name of your god, and I will call upon the name of the LORD, and the God who answers by fire, he is God.” And all the people answered, “It is well spoken.”
1Ki 18:25 Then Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose for yourselves one bull and prepare it first, for you are many, and call upon the name of your god, but put no fire to it.”
1Ki 18:26 And they took the bull that was given them, and they prepared it and called upon the name of Baal from morning until noon, saying, “O Baal, answer us!” But there was no voice, and no one answered. And they limped around the altar that they had made.
1Ki 18:27 And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.”
1Ki 18:28 And they cried aloud and cut themselves after their custom with swords and lances, until the blood gushed out upon them.
1Ki 18:29 And as midday passed, they raved on until the time of the offering of the oblation, but there was no voice. No one answered; no one paid attention.
1Ki 18:30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come near to me.” And all the people came near to him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that had been thrown down.
1Ki 18:31 Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD came, saying, “Israel shall be your name,”
1Ki 18:32 and with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD. And he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two seahs of seed.
1Ki 18:33 And he put the wood in order and cut the bull in pieces and laid it on the wood. And he said, “Fill four jars with water and pour it on the burnt offering and on the wood.”
1Ki 18:34 And he said, “Do it a second time.” And they did it a second time. And he said, “Do it a third time.” And they did it a third time.
1Ki 18:35 And the water ran around the altar and filled the trench also with water.
1Ki 18:36 And at the time of the offering of the oblation, Elijah the prophet came near and said, “O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that you are God in Israel, and that I am your servant, and that I have done all these things at your word.
1Ki 18:37 Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that you, O LORD, are God, and that you have turned their hearts back.”
1Ki 18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
1Ki 18:39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces and said, “The LORD, he is God; the LORD, he is God.”
1Ki 18:40 And Elijah said to them, “Seize the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape.” And they seized them. And Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon and slaughtered them there.
...now here a powerful preaching that can thunder, reverberate through the heavens, to the glory of God and our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus...I count two, you?
That's an interesting way of putting it though, isn't it? Why- the word "manifest" if what is being expressed is "became" ? Ever consider this? My assumption is that you are referencing 1 Tim 3:16. Why wouldn't Paul simply say-- 'The Father became flesh' if that is what he meant? Instead he uses this strange word- 'manifest' or 'revealed' or 'made visible' referring repeatedly to it being as a mystery that was unveiled that he is explaining. A manifest refers to the contents of a vessel-- to what is inside and a manifestation refers to a revealing of those contents. Worth pondering.
Johann
Well-Known Member
@Jack has a clear obsession which is unhealthy in and of itself, bordering on a compulsion- which is a disorder. I don't think he quite knows what to do with someone from a Southern Baptist foundation like yours, or an Evangelical background like mine, who simply disagree with a premise he might hold dear-- so he insists on trying to put a label on folks that he can otherwise dismiss. He's a one-trick pony.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Incorrect, the Father did not become flesh, if that is what you are implying...
Without controversy (ὁμολογουμένως)
Lit. confessedly. N.T.o.
The mystery of godliness (τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον)
(a) The connection of thought is with the truth (1Ti_3:15), and the words mystery of godliness are a paraphrase of that word. The church is the pillar and stay of the truth, and the truth constitutes the mystery of godliness. (b) The contents of this truth or mystery is Christ, revealed in the gospel as the Savior from ungodliness, the norm and inspiration of godliness, the divine life in man, causing him to live unto God as Christ did and does (Rom_6:10). See 1Ti_1:15; 1Ti_2:5; Col_1:26, Col_1:27. According to the Fourth Gospel, Christ is himself the truth (Joh_14:6). The mystery of godliness is the substance of piety = mystery of the faith (1Ti_3:9). (c) The truth is called a mystery because it was, historically, hidden, until revealed in the person and work of Christ; also because it is concealed from human wisdom, and apprehended only by faith in the revelation of God through Christ. (d) The genitive, of godliness, is possessive. The mystery of godliness is the truth which pertains or belongs to godliness. It is not the property of worldly wisdom. Great (μέγα) means important, weighty, as Eph_5:32.
God (Θεὸς)
But the correct reading is ὃς who. The antecedent of this relative is not mystery, as if Christ were styled “the mystery,” but the relative refers to Christ as an antecedent; and the abruptness of its introduction may be explained by the fact that it and the words which follow were probably taken from an ancient credal hymn. In the earlier Christian ages it was not unusual to employ verse or rhythm for theological teaching or statement. The heretics propounded their peculiar doctrines in psalms. Clement of Alexandria wrote a hymn in honor of Christ for the use of catechumens, and Arius embodied his heresy in his Thalia, which was sung in the streets and taverns of Alexandria. The Muratorian Canon was probably composed in verse. In the last quarter of the fourth century, there are two metrical lists of Scripture by Amphilochius and Gregory Nazianzen.
Was manifest (ἐφανερώθη)
More correctly, was manifested. The verb is used Joh_1:2; Heb_9:26; 1Pe_1:20; 1Jn_3:5, 1Jn_3:8, of the historical manifestation of Christ; and of the future coming of Christ in Col_3:4; 1Pe_5:4; 1Jn_3:2.
In the flesh (ἐν σαρκί)
Comp. Joh_1:14; 1Jn_4:2; 2Jn_1:7; Rom_1:3; Rom_8:3; Rom_9:5. Σάρξ flesh only here in Pastorals.
Justified in the Spirit (ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι)
The verb δικαιοῦν, so familiar in Paul's writings, is found in the Pastorals only here and Tit_3:7. Its application to Christ as the subject of justification does not appear in Paul. Its meaning here is vindicated, indorsed, as Mat_11:19; Luk_10:29. Concerning the whole phrase it is to be said: (a) That the two clauses, manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, exhibit a contrast between two aspects of the life of Christ (b) That ἐν in must have the same meaning in both clauses (c) That meaning is not instrumental, by, nor purely modal, expressing the kind and manner of Christ's justification, but rather local with a shade of modality. It expresses in each case a peculiar condition which accompanied the justification; a sphere of life in which it was exhibited and which gave character to it. In the one condition or sphere (the flesh) he was hated, persecuted, and murdered. In the other (the Spirit) he was triumphantly vindicated. See further the additional note at the end of this chapter.
Seen of angels (ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις)
Better, appeared unto or showed himself to, as Mat_17:3; Luk_1:11; Act_7:2; Heb_9:28. The same verb is used of the appearance of the risen Christ to different persons or parties (1Co_15:5-8). The reference of the words cannot be determined with certainty. They seem to imply some great, majestic occasion, rather than the angelic manifestations during Jesus' earthly life. Besides, on these occasions, the angels appeared to him, not he to them. The reference is probably to his appearance in the heavenly world after his ascension, when the glorified Christ, having been triumphantly vindicated in his messianic work and trial, presented himself to the heavenly hosts. Comp. Php_2:10; Eph_3:10, and, in the latter passage, note the connection with; “the mystery,” 1Ti_3:9.
Was preached unto the Gentiles (ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν)
Better, among the nations., There is no intention of emphasizing the distinction between the Jews and other nations.
Was believed on in the world (ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ)
For a similar construction see 2Th_1:10. With Christ as subject this use of ἐπιστεύθη is unique.
Was received up into glory (ἀνελήμφθη ἐν δόξῃ)
Better, received or taken up in glory. Ἁναλαμβάνειν is the formal term to describe the ascension of Christ (see Act_1:2, Act_1:22), and the reference is most probably to that event. Comp. lxx, 2Ki_2:11, of Elijah, and Sir. 49:14, of Enoch. Ἑν δόξῃ in glory: with attendant circumstances of pomp or majesty, as we say of a victorious general, the entered the city in triumph.” This usage is common in N.T. See Mat_16:27; Mat_25:31; Mar_8:38; Luk_9:31; Luk_12:27; 1Co_15:43; 2Co_3:7, 2Co_3:8, 2Co_3:11.
Additional Note on 1Ti_3:16
Christ's existence before his incarnation was purely spiritual (ἐν πνεύματι). He was in the form of God (Php_2:6): He was the effulgence of God's glory and the express image of his substance (Heb_1:3), and God is spirit (Joh_4:24).
From this condition he came into manifestation in the flesh (ἐν σαρκί). He became man and entered into human conditions (Php_2:7, Php_2:8). Under these human conditions the attributes of his essential spiritual personality were veiled. He did not appear to men what he really was. He was not recognised by them as he who “was in the beginning with God” (Joh_1:1, Joh_1:2); as “the image of the invisible God” (Col_1:15); as one with God (Joh_10:30; Joh_14:9); as he who had all power in heaven and earth (Mat_28:18); who was “before all things and by whom all things consist” (Col_1:17); who was “the king of the ages” (1Ti_1:17). On the contrary, he was regarded as an impostor, a usurper, and a blasphemer. He was hated, persecuted, and finally murdered. He was poor, tempted, and tried, a man of sorrows.
The justification or vindication of what he really was did not therefore come out of the fleshly sphere. He was not justified in the flesh. It came out of the sphere of his spiritual being. Glimpses of this pneumatic life (ἐν πνεύματι) flashed out during his life in the flesh. By his exalted and spotless character, by his works of love and power, by his words of authority, in his baptism and transfiguration, he was vindicated as being what he essentially was and what he openly claimed to be. These justifications were revelations, expressions, and witnesses of his original, essential spiritual and divine quality; of the native glory which he had with the Father before the world was. It was the Spirit that publicly indorsed him (Joh_1:32, Joh_1:33): the words which he spake were spirit and life (Joh_6:63): he cast out demons in the Spirit of God (Mat_12:28): his whole earthly manifestation was in demonstration of the Spirit. These various demonstrations decisively justified his claims in the eyes of many. His disciples confessed him as the Christ of God (Luk_9:20) some of the people said “this is the Christ” (Joh_7:41): others suspected that he was such (Joh_4:29). Whether or not men acknowledged his claims, they felt the power of his unique personality. They were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one having authority (Mat_7:28, Mat_7:29).
Then followed the more decisive vindication in his resurrection from the dead. Here the work of the Spirit is distinctly recognised by Paul, Rom_1:4. See also Rom_8:11. In the period between his resurrection and ascension his pneumatic life came into clearer manifestation, and added to the vindication furnished in his life and resurrection. He seemed to live on the border-line between the natural and the spiritual world, and the powers of the spiritual world were continually crossing the line and revealing themselves in him.
In the apostolic preaching, the appeal to the vindication of Christ by the Spirit is clear and unequivocal. The spiritual nourishment of believers is “the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ” (Php_1:19): the Holy Spirit is called “the Spirit of Christ” (Rom_8:9; Gal_4:6): Paul identifies Christ personally with the Spirit (2Co_3:17); and in Rom_8:9, Rom_8:10, “Spirit of God,” “Spirit of Christ,” and “Christ” are used as convertible terms. The indwelling of the Spirit of Christ is the test and vindication of belonging to Christ (Rom_8:9). Thus, though put to death in the flesh, in the Spirit Christ is vindicated as the Son of God, the Christ of God, the manifestation of God.
Vincent
See where the Monotheists have a problem?
Isa 9:6 (5) For unto us a yeled is born, unto us ben is given; and the misrah (dominion) shall be upon his shoulder; and Shmo shall be called Peleh (Wonderful), Yoetz (Counsellor), El Gibbor (Mighty G-d), Avi Ad (Everlasting Father), Sar Shalom (Prince of Peace).
Isa 9:7 (6) Of the increase of his misrah and shalom there shall be no ketz (end), upon the Kisse Dovid, and upon his kingdom, to strengthen it, and to support it with mishpat and with tzedakah from henceforth even ad olam (forever). The Kinat Hashem Tzva'os will fulfill this.
OJB.
Who sent Who?
Who is pros/with Who?
No one has even listened to a single video clip I have posted, that I can tell.
I would say what combines with the lies, 'no verse' and blindness is, their career trolling this community. And no doubt others as well.
They have a limited vocabulary,as it typical of trolls.
Jerry Maguire was a great reference. ''Show me the verse!''
Johann
Well-Known Member
There's one of me, and ten thousand instructors on the other, surely you can do evangelical apologetics, can't you.
I like this...
Let me ask this-- if YOU sleep in your garage each night-- would you become a car? "God" was in Jesus... God did not become a man.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
It's not a lie that you cannot show the trinity verse. What is true is that you complain about it being requested and mock those who dare question what you idolize.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
That statement and admission should cause you concern. If it doesn't disturb you, enjoy your peace.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Have you ever asked why evidence for the man-is-god thesis in Scripture is always so cryptic and implied but explicitly states Jesus is the son of God?
That'll work. God's holy spirit is Jesus in substance/flesh.
The Trinitarians I've met insist Trinity means three separate and distinct persons.
They are serious too when they insist God has a personhood. And worse, some, not all, insisted Jesus ascended back to the father as,and remains in Heaven , a flesh and blood man.
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