What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

[Matthias]

Or be given credit depending on your view.

I remember reading it in anti JW material.

Maybe one of the JW members of the forum will have a reference for us.

*

@Aunty Jane do you know? Could you provide a reference for where support for “a god” in John 1:1c is found in Origen’s writings?

 

[Peterlag]

Darwin's understanding led him to faithfully preach evolution while being simultaneously ignorant of two things: the limitless complexity of the science of genetics, and that the first truths of it had already been discovered, researched, and published by Gregor Mendel but lay yet unknown to the world on some obscure monastic book shelf.

Just think of the irreligious mess our society wouldn't be in if Darwin hadn't made so many assumptions based on what the present has proved to be his relative "childlike" level of scientific knowledge.

It is not necessary to know how to split the atom to be able to walk in the spirit.

 

[Peterlag]

Gal 3
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

What are we talking about? What verse is that for? Keep in mind I'm responding to hundreds of people on 5 different websites.

 

[Peterlag]

I apologize for misunderstanding what you said I'd thought you meant I said He wasn't here my fault sorry.

A question if u don't mind do you think God is a soul?

And where did your soul come from was it a breathe from God or something else?

I believe the soul is nothing more then you being alive and breathing. Has nothing to do with the spirit of God.

 

[BeyondET]

I believe the soul is nothing more then you being alive and breathing. Has nothing to do with the spirit of God.

If that is true than anybody can stop you physically from being alive and breathing and kill your soul at the same time, that is not the case at all.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Kermos]

It is necessary to believe that Jesus is God in order to enter Heaven is a pretty good answer. But I'm not looking for why we should believe it, but rather why did he have to be God. Are you thinking that because he is God... then we should believe that? I'm looking for why did God have to come down as a man to be on the Earth for 30 something years. What purpose did that achieve?

Your "why did he have to be God" is non-sequitor because God is always God (see this post in this thread)

God says Jesus is God, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom" (Hebrews 1:8).

THE WORD OF GOD DECLARES THAT JESUS IS TRULY MAN AND THAT JESUS IS TRULY GOD!

 

[Wrangler]

If that is true than anybody can stop you physically from being alive and breathing and kill your soul at the same time, that is not the case at all.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

I’m big on definitions. I’ve read the soul = body + spirit.

However, verses like you reference call that into question. I don’t agree with @Peterlag on this matter. And I suspect Language Usage plays a roll in the confusion. Some people use soul and spirit interchangeably even though not precisely correct based on the above definition/equation.

There is only one immortal Spirit, the Spirit of God. He breathed his Spirit of Life into Adam and Eve, who propagate it on through the generations. That is, only temporally and bodily. When our body dies, our God given spirit returns to God.

Although we are made in the image of God, it does not mean we are God or fully make his Spirit our own spirit for our ego may push aside the spirit of God for our glory rather than his.

We cannot purge ourselves of self by our own will. We need Christ for that, God’s only mediator to us. We cannot help but be touched by God’s Spirit, since he made us. Again, being touched by, made in his image, does not mean we fully embrace his divine spirit.

Because of that rejection, the Spirit given to us returns to God - without Christ’s intervention. That’s my $0.02.

Hope that helps.

 

[dhh712]

Well, we might have an answer here. So you're saying the reason Jesus had to be God is because only God can forgive sins and Jesus had to be able to forgive sins on the Earth. Can you give me a chapter and verse on this Psalms? And just to keep me calm can you give just one verse where it says that in the New Testament? Thanks.

Psalm 32:1-2 "Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity..." Psalm 103:12 "As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us". A more clear definition also can be found in Isaiah 43:25, "I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake; And I will not remember sins."

It appears the New Testament draws on the verses in the Old Testament that shows where God forgives sins [since the transgression is against him, as David says, "Against you and you alone have I sinned" (Psalm 51:4) only he can be the one to forgive the transgression]. In the passage about the paralytic in Mark, chapter 2:7 shows how in the understanding of the Jews it is only God who can forgive sins "Why does this man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

Hope that helps a bit. I imagine others can contribute more verses.

 

[Phoneman777]

It is not necessary to know how to split the atom to be able to walk in the spirit.

True...but we're told to "test the spirits" and if we possess an inadequate level of knowledge for testing - as Darwin did - we're almost certain to end up with a wrong conclusion, too.

 

[Carl Emerson]

What are we talking about? What verse is that for? Keep in mind I'm responding to hundreds of people on 5 different websites.

You asked for scriptural support in post #1826

 

[Matthias]

How do you feel / what do you think about rebaptizing @RLT63?

I was rebaptized after leaving trinitarianism. It wasn’t required by the Church; I requested to be rebaptized and after some discussion the pastor acquiesced.

An Anabaptist theology.

Trinitarian and anti-trinitarian united by an uncommon faith?

That doesn’t fit well or sit well with rebaptizing, or so it seems to me.

 

[RLT63]

I was rebaptized after leaving trinitarianism. It wasn’t required by the Church; I requested to be rebaptized and after some discussion the pastor acquiesced.

An Anabaptist theology.

Trinitarian and anti-trinitarian united by an uncommon faith?

That doesn’t fit well or sit well with rebaptizing, or so it seems to me.

I was baptized when I was 14. In my early 20s I thought that I knew more about what I was doing and I was baptized again. I don't know how most Churches feel about it. The Church I attend now baptizes as soon as someone accepts Christ. They believe it's necessary for salvation. I believe it is symbolic, like the wedding ring in the marriage ceremony. You would still be married without a ring but who would want that?

 

[Matthias]

I was baptized when I was 14. In my early 20s I thought that I knew more about what I was doing and I was baptized again. I don't know how most Churches feel about.

My grandparents wanted me to be baptized when I was about 10. My parents refused to allow it. They thought I should understanding what I was doing before I decided whether to do it or not - “believers baptism”. I was baptized at the age of 21. My parents were indifferent about it; my grandparents were thrilled, and relieved.

I was rebaptized when I was 43. I knew so much more at 40 then I did at 20, and faaar more than I did at 10.

I had a hypothetical discussion with a trinitarian pastor regarding his thoughts on baptism in the event of me some day returning to trinitarianism. He was conflicted about it. On one hand, I had already been baptized a trinitarian. On the other hand, I had possibly rejected that baptism when I left trinitarianism and probably when I was rebaptized. He said if push came to shove, he would recommend being rebaptized if I returned to trinitarianism.

Historically, rebaptism has been viewed as a rejection of the original baptism, and abandoning the faith. Anabaptists (“Rebaptizers”) in Reformation days were persecuted and killed by Catholics and by Protestants. In modern times reaction varies, but no one is being put to death over it.

 

[RLT63]

My grandparents wanted me to be baptized when I was about 10. My parents refused to allow it. They thought I should understanding what I was doing before I decided whether to do it or not - “believers baptism”. I was baptized at the age of 21. My parents were indifferent about it; my grandparents were thrilled, and relieved.

I was rebaptized when I was 43. I knew so much more at 40 then I did at 20, and faaar more than I did at 10.

I had a hypothetical discussion with a trinitarian pastor regarding his thoughts on baptism in the event of me some day returning to trinitarianism. He was conflicted about it. On one hand, I had already been baptized a trinitarian. On the other hand, I had possibly rejected that baptism when I left trinitarianism and probably when I was rebaptized. He said if push came to shove, he would recommend being rebaptized if I returned to trinitarianism.

Historically, rebaptism has been viewed as a rejection of the original baptism, and abandoning the faith. Anabaptists (“Rebaptizers”) in Reformation days were persecuted and killed by Catholics and by Protestants. In modern times reaction varies, but no one is being put to death over it.

I edited my post and added some more information

 

[John Caldwell]

I can't get anyone to answer this honest question. All I get back is because the Bible says so. But there must be a reason for it. What is it? Here I will give you a reason why he had to be a man.

Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

Now it's your turn. Anyone?

It is not about making Jesus anything. Jesus is God.

The reason this is necessary is redemption (in Christ man is reconciled to God).

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Jesus is God.

“…Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…” (John 20:31)

 

[Matthias]

I edited my post and added some more information

Do they believe in baptizing infants and children?

The question regarding whether it is necessary for salvation or not is interesting. It is commanded by Jesus and scripture records that it was actually performed. That sounds to me like an obedient response to a command made by the Messiah.

Not obeying a command of Jesus - if that is the correct way to think about what he said (which seems to me to be the case because it was literally done in scripture) - seems connected to salvation: “Jesus said do, and I said no.”

I think it’s symbolic but I don’t think it’s optional.

The pastor I mentioned believed in OSAS. His initial response was that all I needed to do was repent; the original baptism was still valid. I asked him why the need to repent if we were talking about the same God and we just had an academic difference of opinion. That’s when he said I had rejected the true Messiah when I left trinitarianism and that might mean that I had never really accepted the true Messiah to begin with. That uncertainty in his mind elicited the recommendation of being rebaptized.

What if I decided against his recommendation? He said he would have to think about it and that I might have to find a pastor more liberal than himself if I made that decision.

It was just a hypothetical conversation.

 

[RLT63]

Do they believe in baptizing infants and children?

The question regarding whether it is necessary for salvation or not is interesting. It is commanded by Jesus and scripture records that it was actually performed. That sounds to me like an obedient response to a command made by the Messiah.

Not obeying a command of Jesus - if that is the correct way to think about what he said (which seems to me to be the case because it was literally done in scripture) - seems connected to salvation: “Jesus said do, and I said no.”

I think it’s symbolic but I don’t think it’s optional.

The pastor I mentioned believed in OSAS. His initial response was that all I needed to do was repent; the original baptism was still valid. I asked him why the need to repent if we were talking about the same God and we just had an academic difference of opinion. That’s when he said I had rejected the true Messiah when I left trinitarianism and that might mean that I had never really accepted the true Messiah to begin with. That uncertainty in his mind elicited the recommendation of being rebaptized.

What if I decided against his recommendation? He said he would have to think about it and that I might have to find a pastor more liberal than himself if I made that decision.

It was just a hypothetical conversation.

What if someone accepts Jesus as Saviour in a near death situation and has no opportunity to be baptized?

 

[Matthias]

What if someone accepts Jesus as Saviour in a near death situation and has no opportunity to be baptized?

I question that a person who waits until the last possible moment to accept Jesus as savior has. Jesus will be the judge of that.

Let’s assume though that the person has. (Jesus nods his head approvingly.) I presume Jesus would recognize and acknowledge that the person had no opportunity to be baptized, that this is an exceptional circumstance, not a normal circumstance, and that the person would have obeyed the command (again, if that’s what it is) if able to; that there was no disobedience on the person’s part.

I haven’t encountered that situation in my ministry.

 

[RLT63]

I question that a person who waits until the last possible moment to accept Jesus as savior has. Jesus will be the judge of that.

Let’s assume though that the person has. (Jesus nods his head approvingly.) I presume Jesus would recognize and acknowledge that the person had no opportunity to be baptized, that this is an exceptional circumstance, and that the person would have obeyed the command (again, if that’s what it is) if able to; that there was no disobedience on the person’s part.

I haven’t encountered that situation in my ministry.

I agree everyone should be baptized. People say "What about the thief on the cross? " One Pastor said if you get yourself crucified we will make an exception.