What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

[Matthias]

It doesn't trouble me.

It brought me out of trinitarianism.

As I said, results vary from person to person. It’s a matter of conscience.

My conscience is clear and I imagine yours is too.

 

[John Caldwell]

Can God do that without the role played by his Christ?
Why do we need reconciliation?
What role does Jesus play in that reconciliation....and why did he need to be appointed as “mediator between God and man” if he himself was God?

God could do without the role of Christ. Man couldn't. We need to be reconciled because otherwise we face the consequences of sin (death) without the hope of life.

Consider it this way - redemption is not a reactive plan but rather the original purpose of man. A seed must fall, it must "die", for life to spring up.

 

[BeyondET]

A valid point. The man Jesus did not exist before Abraham and was descended from him in a direct lineage, all recorded in Scripture. But the spirit being who became the man Jesus certainly did exist before Abraham. As the “only begotten Son of God” he was the facilitator of all creation, including all that exists in the spirit realm. (Colossians 1:15-17; John 1:2-3)

He was not “begotten” at his human birth, but has been by his Father’s side since his creation. He has always be God’s “firstborn”. (Proverbs 8:30-31; Revelation 3:14)
Only the trinity forbids this fact because it cannot reconcile that God and his son are completely separate beings, one is clearly in complete subordination to one he calls his God and Father.

The holy spirit is not a person. Greek grammar is in play when the holy spirit is called “he” because the language has gender (like French) the “Paraclete” is masculine gender, and is therefore rendered with masculine pronouns. The holy spirit is the administration of God’s powerful energy. It is given in due time and in due measure for the task assigned. The scriptures confirm that this energy can facilitate supernatural deeds and is given by the Father to his son at his baptism. Jesus could then empower his apostles to perform supernatural deeds with the mention of his name. After Jesus ascended to heaven, God sent the holy spirit to anoint Jesus disciples at Pentecost. They then could carry on the work Jesus started under the same power that God had given him. It was there to facilitate the growth of Christianity in difficult circumstance, until the strength of the congregations was sufficient to stand up to the opposition that Jesus said would come. (John 15:18-21) The power of God’s spirit in this physical expression died with the apostles, but continued with the genuine Christians even after the weeds were sown by the devil. It strengthened them to carry on the work assigned to them. (Matthew 28:19-20)


Exactly....he is telling them that he existed before Abraham because they had asked him a question about his age, not his deity. In his spirit form, he did exist before Abraham.


The Jews put great store in being “sons of Abraham”....but John the Baptist put them straight on that point...
“When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.“
The ax fell, and the trees were cut down.....(Matthew 23:37-39)


Their Messiah was not going to be God incarnate and not once did Jesus ever claim to be his Father’s equal, reinforced by the fact that Jesus addresses his Father as “my God” even in heaven. (Revelation 3:12)

Thats just like a octopus, the central brain doesn't tell the leg brain where to find food.

 

[RLT63]

Still ignoring the question I asked about juxtaposition and who - in Acts 17:31 - raised Jesus from the dead.

Amazing that you complain @Aunty Jane is condescending while you chuck and dive my questions.

God did in that verse but Jesus said he would do it. John 10:17-18 he also said he would raise the temple in 3 days meaning his body

 

[Wrangler]

I wasn't addressing the post you quoted.

Exactly!

 

[RLT63]

Exactly!

You took the response to one post and attributed it to another

 

[Wrangler]

God did in that verse but …

Thank you for answering.

This is the juxtaposition I keep referring to. How could God raise Jesus from the dead - from the sentence of Acts 17:31 - if Jesus were God?

 

[RLT63]

You took the response to one post and attributed it to another

Can anyone find one verse that says why God wants to be worshipped? We all know he does, you can show he is worthy, but is there one verse that says why he wants us to worship him?

 

[Matthias]

A valid point. The man Jesus did not exist before Abraham and was descended from him in a direct lineage, all recorded in Scripture. But the spirit being who became the man Jesus certainly did exist before Abraham. As the “only begotten Son of God” he was the facilitator of all creation, including all that exists in the spirit realm. (Colossians 1:15-17; John 1:2-3)

He was not “begotten” at his human birth, but has been by his Father’s side since his creation. He has always be God’s “firstborn”. (Proverbs 8:30-31; Revelation 3:14)
Only the trinity forbids this fact because it cannot reconcile that God and his son are completely separate beings, one is clearly in complete subordination to one he calls his God and Father.

The holy spirit is not a person. Greek grammar is in play when the holy spirit is called “he” because the language has gender (like French) the “Paraclete” is masculine gender, and is therefore rendered with masculine pronouns. The holy spirit is the administration of God’s powerful energy. It is given in due time and in due measure for the task assigned. The scriptures confirm that this energy can facilitate supernatural deeds and is given by the Father to his son at his baptism. Jesus could then empower his apostles to perform supernatural deeds with the mention of his name. After Jesus ascended to heaven, God sent the holy spirit to anoint Jesus disciples at Pentecost. They then could carry on the work Jesus started under the same power that God had given him. It was there to facilitate the growth of Christianity in difficult circumstance, until the strength of the congregations was sufficient to stand up to the opposition that Jesus said would come. (John 15:18-21) The power of God’s spirit in this physical expression died with the apostles, but continued with the genuine Christians even after the weeds were sown by the devil. It strengthened them to carry on the work assigned to them. (Matthew 28:19-20)


Exactly....he is telling them that he existed before Abraham because they had asked him a question about his age, not his deity. In his spirit form, he did exist before Abraham.


The Jews put great store in being “sons of Abraham”....but John the Baptist put them straight on that point...
“When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.“
The ax fell, and the trees were cut down.....(Matthew 23:37-39)


Their Messiah was not going to be God incarnate and not once did Jesus ever claim to be his Father’s equal, reinforced by the fact that Jesus addresses his Father as “my God” even in heaven. (Revelation 3:12)

You identified a major difference between the two of us. It’s a Christological issue.

He was not “begotten” at his human birth, but has been by his Father’s side since his creation.

What you and I have in common is the belief that the Father alone is the one true God. May it always be so!

We also have in common the belief that Jesus was created. May that also always be so!

But this is where we separate. Like the trinitarians, the binitarians and the majority of unitarians, you believe in literal preexistence. I don’t. I believe in ideal, also called notional, preexistence.

You place his creation sometime before the creation of the heavens and the earth. I place his creation at circa 6 B.C.

You believe that he preexisted as the archangel Michael. I don’t. I believe he preexisted only in the mind of Jehovah; that he has never been anything other than a human person.

As you can see, we have a critically important area of agreement, and a colossal area of disagreement.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Why does God want us to worship him? Can you find one verse that says why?

What is worship exactly? The scriptures indicate that it is the rendering of reverent honor or homage to those considered to be gods. True worship of the Creator should embrace every aspect of an individual’s life. The apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians: “Whether you are eating or drinking or doing anything else, do all things for God’s glory.” (1 Corinthians 10:31)

When God created Adam, He did not prescribe any particular ceremony or means by which perfect humans might approach Him in worship. Nevertheless, Adam was able to serve or worship his Creator by faithfully doing the will of his heavenly Father. His assignment was clearly stated and he was to carry it out under God’s instructions. In return he would receiving blessings because God is a “rewarded”. He reciprocates....we love because we were first loved by him. (1 John 4:19)

Later, to the nation of Israel, Jehovah did outline a certain way of approach in worship, including sacrifice, a priesthood, and a material sanctuary. This, however, had only “a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things.” (Hebrews 10:1) The primary emphasis has always been on exercising faith—doing the will of God—and not on ceremony or ritual. (Matthew 7:21; James 2:17-26)

“Worship” in the beginning was not what it became later when false gods were vying for the worship of his chosen nation. When God has dealt with his adversary and all who have allowed themselves to be influenced by him, I am sure that we will go back to the way it was in Eden.....with no false gods or worship to contend with and no enemies of God in existence to spoil what he wanted to give mankind at the outset, God’s original purpose for this earth and all the life he created here will return to what was supposed to be in the beginning. (Isaiah 55:11)

Why do you think God put us here?

 

[Peterlag]

It says that God was reconciling Himself to man.

It says God was in Christ. It does not say God was Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

DK but I hope.

Romans 8:8-9
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Who are those who are just in the flesh? Who are the ones that have not the spirit of Christ? Who are those who are none of his?

 

[RLT63]

Thank you for answering.

This is the juxtaposition I keep referring to. How could God raise Jesus from the dead - from the sentence of Acts 17:31 - if Jesus were God?

Because the Spirit doesn't die

 

[RLT63]

What is worship exactly? The scriptures indicate that it is the rendering of reverent honor or homage to those considered to be gods. True worship of the Creator should embrace every aspect of an individual’s life. The apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians: “Whether you are eating or drinking or doing anything else, do all things for God’s glory.” (1 Corinthians 10:31)

When God created Adam, He did not prescribe any particular ceremony or means by which perfect humans might approach Him in worship. Nevertheless, Adam was able to serve or worship his Creator by faithfully doing the will of his heavenly Father. His assignment was clearly stated and he was to carry it out under God’s instructions. In return he would receiving blessings because God is a “rewarded”. He reciprocates....we love because we were first loved by him. (1 John 4:19)

Later, to the nation of Israel, Jehovah did outline a certain way of approach in worship, including sacrifice, a priesthood, and a material sanctuary. This, however, had only “a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things.” (Hebrews 10:1) The primary emphasis has always been on exercising faith—doing the will of God—and not on ceremony or ritual. (Matthew 7:21; James 2:17-26)

“Worship” in the beginning was not what it became later when false gods were vying for the worship of his chosen nation. When God has dealt with his adversary and all who have allowed themselves to be influenced by him, I am sure that we will go back to the way it was in Eden.....with no false gods or worship to contend with and no enemies of God in existence to spoil what he wanted to give mankind at the outset, God’s original purpose for this earth and all the life he created here will return to what was supposed to be in the beginning. (Isaiah 55:11)

Why do you think God put us here?

I know why. But that doesn't give me a verse that says why God wants to be worshipped. You see how ridiculous this thread is?

 

[atpollard]

I can answer that. The Sun provides heat and light. Now can you answer what did God provide when he came to the Earth as a man?

Why would the sun not provide heat and light if it orbited the earth?
We should make the sun orbit the earth.
Go ahead. Do it.

Then we can try to do something harder like make Christ BE or NOT BE God.
(Perhaps now you will comprehend the point that I was making).

 

[BeyondET]

Romans 8:8-9
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Who are those who are just in the flesh? Who are the ones that have not the spirit of Christ? Who are those who are none of his?

So if someone has the Spirit of God dwelling in them but not the Spirit of Christ its a no go hmm.

 

[atpollard]

All I want is a verse or two that say why Jesus had to come as God. Nobody can give me a verse. Something is really wrong with this. If Jesus had to be God and come to the earth. Then how come the Bible does not tell us why that happened? Would not something like that be important?

Jesus had to be “GOOD”.
Only God is “GOOD”.
Therefore, the only way for Jesus to be GOOD was for Jesus to be God.
(Verses were provided previously, but ignored … now you can search for them yourself.)

Here is a free verse: He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. [2 Corinthians 5:21 NASB95]

 

[RLT63]

So if someone has the Spirit of God dwelling in them but not the Spirit of Christ its a no go hmm.

That verse does use God and Christ interchangeably

 

[Waiting on him]

I've heard something similar;
One of the more controversial teachings of Brigham Young during the Mormon Reformation was the Adam–God doctrine. According to Young, he was taught by Smith that Adam is "our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do". According to the doctrine, Adam was once a mortal man who became resurrected and exalted. From another planet, Adam brought Eve, one of his wives, with him to the earth, where they became mortal by eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. After bearing mortal children and establishing the human race, Adam and Eve returned to their heavenly thrones where Adam acts as the god of this world. Later, as Young is generally understood to have taught, Adam returned to the earth to become the biological father of Jesus.[104][105][106] The LDS Church has since repudiated the Adam–God doctrine

That all sounds truly crazy.

 

[John Caldwell]

It says God was in Christ. It does not say God was Christ.

καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος