What day was water created on and why is it not on the new earth?

[Skovand1075]

you said “The sea symbolizes chaos and hostility to life. The sea represents the formless void.” Fitting words (Imo) “chaos”, “hostility to life” “formless void”…which all make me think of “in vain”, or “unprofitable” or “cast away”

“chaotic waters” …Can see that as applying well too. That is why I quoted the verse about men’s hearts failing them for fear; the waves and the seas roaring there with the men’s heart failing them…does make me think of “chaotic waters” churning “troubled”…

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Hebrews 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

Proverbs 21:6 The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death.


You said “ancient Jewish people believed that before creation, there was only chaotic waters. Darkness was not created either. Darkness is the byproduct of there being no light. For ancient Jews the sea “cosmological waters” was the byproduct of there being no land”
^ this makes me think of the
Jude 1:13 quote: Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

interesting about “darkness”
“Blackness”
being the byproduct of no light and a sea with no land…because of all the references to “dry land appeared”

somewhere in the thread I listed some books and podcasts that deal with this exact topic. They are all Old Testament biblical scholars with multiple doctorates and decades of being professors. They lay it out fairly well citing dozens of more sources.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
• Gen 1:2b . . and darkness was over the surface of the deep

This particular deep is a curiosity because 2Pet 3:5 says the earth was
formed out of water and by water. So I think it's safe to conclude that every
atomic element that God needed to construct the Earth was in suspension in
this deep; viz: it was more than just H2O; it was a colossal chemical soup,
and apparently God created enough of it to put together everything else in
the cosmos too.

• Gen 1:2c . . and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the
waters.

The Hebrew word for "moving" is located in only three places in the entire
Bible. One is here, and the others are at Deut 32:11 and Jer 23:9. The
meaning is ambiguous. It can refer to brooding; i.e. a mother hen using her
wings to keep her chicks together, and it can refer to incubation and/or
quaking, shaking, and fluttering. Take your pick. I'd guess that the Spirit's
movement was sort of like the hen keeping the colossal chemical soup from
running rampant and spreading itself all over the place before God began
putting it to use because up to this point, gravity didn't exist yet.

Re: Why does it say no sea in the new earth.

From what little information is given in the 21st chapter of Revelation, it
appears to me that the natural processes governing the current grand
scheme of things won't be carried over to the new cosmos; and quite
possibly it will be constructed of a periodic table of elements heretofore
unknown to man, i.e. the future is an alien world; and to be honest, I'm not
sure I will like it all that much.
_

 

[BeyondET]

.
• Gen 1:2b . . and darkness was over the surface of the deep

This particular deep is a curiosity because 2Pet 3:5 says the earth was
formed out of water and by water. So I think it's safe to conclude that every
atomic element that God needed to construct the Earth was in suspension in
this deep; viz: it was more than just H2O; it was a colossal chemical soup,
and apparently God created enough of it to put together everything else in
the cosmos too.

• Gen 1:2c . . and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the
waters.

The Hebrew word for "moving" is located in only three places in the entire
Bible. One is here, and the others are at Deut 32:11 and Jer 23:9. The
meaning is ambiguous. It can refer to brooding; i.e. a mother hen using her
wings to keep her chicks together, and it can refer to incubation and/or
quaking, shaking, and fluttering. Take your pick. I'd guess that the Spirit's
movement was sort of like the hen keeping the colossal chemical soup from
running rampant and spreading itself all over the place before God began
putting it to use because up to this point, gravity didn't exist yet.

Re: Why does it say no sea in the new earth.

From what little information is given in the 21st chapter of Revelation, it
appears to me that the natural processes governing the current grand
scheme of things won't be carried over to the new cosmos; and quite
possibly it will be constructed of a periodic table of elements heretofore
unknown to man, i.e. the future is an alien world; and to be honest, I'm not
sure I will like it all that much.
_

In my opinion the future might not be so alien world, scripture doesn't mention what became of the waters above after separation if im not mistaken nothing is mentioned of that water. That water might still be for something.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

scripture doesn't mention what became of the waters above after separation. if im not
mistaken nothing is mentioned of that water. That water might still be for something.

That water you're talking about-- whatever it is and/or wherever it is --was
created for the current grand scheme of things. According to second Peter
3:10-12, Rev 20:11, and Rev 21:1 everything made in the first chapter of
Genesis is slated to be utterly obliterated and nothing spared, i.e. the new
cosmos will be a fresh start-up from scratch.

* There will be neither Sun nor ocean on the new Earth, but that doesn't
preclude the possibility of other Earth-like worlds in the new cosmos having
Suns and oceans where God's people can vacation and do a little surfing,
boating, and or beach combing, viz: the new Earth will be a residence
but not likely a prison. I fully expect to do some freelance exploring from
time to time.
_

 

[BeyondET]

.


That water you're talking about-- whatever it is and/or wherever it is --was
created for the current grand scheme of things. According to second Peter
3:10-12, Rev 20:11, and Rev 21:1 everything made in the first chapter of
Genesis is slated to be utterly obliterated and nothing spared, i.e. the new
cosmos will be a fresh start-up from scratch.

* There will be neither Sun nor ocean on the new Earth, but that doesn't
preclude the possibility of other Earth-like worlds in the new cosmos having
Suns and oceans where God's people can vacation and do a little surfing,
boating, and or beach combing, viz: the new Earth will be a residence
but not likely a prison. I fully expect to do some freelance exploring from
time to time.
_

Could be debating some, water was separated and a firmament was placed between them, lights are in the firmament.

Surfing sounds fun, catch a wave on a galaxy cantis firmus

 

[Skovand1075]

In my opinion the future might not be so alien world, scripture doesn't mention what became of the waters above after separation if im not mistaken nothing is mentioned of that water. That water might still be for something.

Or it was how the ancient Jewish people believed. Since for them the entire cosmos was water , a giant sea in darkness, when that water got separated into the waters above and the waters below, the waters above became clouds. They did not understand evaporation or the weather cycle like us. They believed a dome was built over their earth and that angels opened up doorways in the dome allowing water to fall in through the clouds. They believed all thst water was absorbed by the earth.

it‘a usually not beneficial to apply concordism to the text to develop theology though. Everything in the Bible was written so that ancient men, not us, would understand it. It was built into their culture. Not ours. We have to understand scripture through their culture and worldview, not filter it through our own. Once we understand what it meant to them, we can filter it through ours to see how it applies.

In ancient Mesopotamian culture humanity was often thought of as created out of
Violence with the purpose to be slaves to the god.

genesis 1 purpose was not science, it was built from a different theological position. It’s purpose was to say humankind was built out of peace, and was meant to be corulers, not slaves with god over the earth.

 

[Skovand1075]

.
• Gen 1:2b . . and darkness was over the surface of the deep

This particular deep is a curiosity because 2Pet 3:5 says the earth was
formed out of water and by water. So I think it's safe to conclude that every
atomic element that God needed to construct the Earth was in suspension in
this deep; viz: it was more than just H2O; it was a colossal chemical soup,
and apparently God created enough of it to put together everything else in
the cosmos too.

• Gen 1:2c . . and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the
waters.

The Hebrew word for "moving" is located in only three places in the entire
Bible. One is here, and the others are at Deut 32:11 and Jer 23:9. The
meaning is ambiguous. It can refer to brooding; i.e. a mother hen using her
wings to keep her chicks together, and it can refer to incubation and/or
quaking, shaking, and fluttering. Take your pick. I'd guess that the Spirit's
movement was sort of like the hen keeping the colossal chemical soup from
running rampant and spreading itself all over the place before God began
putting it to use because up to this point, gravity didn't exist yet.

Re: Why does it say no sea in the new earth.

From what little information is given in the 21st chapter of Revelation, it
appears to me that the natural processes governing the current grand
scheme of things won't be carried over to the new cosmos; and quite
possibly it will be constructed of a periodic table of elements heretofore
unknown to man, i.e. the future is an alien world; and to be honest, I'm not
sure I will like it all that much.
_

When we look at the context for the spirit moving above the water the only clear interpretation is hovering above like a bird floating on the wind. Shaking would make no sense here.

We know it’s hovering because the word for spirit is the same for the words used for wind. We also see this trope played out several other times.

In the tale of Noah the world goes back to a previous state. The previous state is a pre creation state.

when the earth was formless and void , covered in darkness and water, God separated it and brought in light and brought up dry land. On the dry land. On the dry land the first things to pop up was trees and birds.

so with Noah we see this image. He’s on a ark floating on a formless void, a world covered in water. We know the imagery here is stormy. It was not pouring down rain for months while sunny. The image is a dark and stormy cloud filled sky. Clouds bloating out sunlight. The world was a formless void covered in water and darkness. The storm stopped, the sun came out, water receded as of being separated revealing dry land. First thing that happens is birds are set free, they are hovering above the watery world and land in trees.

we see this again with things like the baptism of Jesus.

Jesus was standing out in the water. It was as if Jesus was standing in the void. He goes down into the water and comes out to fulfill righteousness. A dove then floating above him lands on his shoulder. Jesus is the tree of life. Jesus is the earth coming out of the void. Jesus is the Eden surrounded by four rivers. Jesus is the dry land the hebrews walked over. Jesus is the man who was foreshadowed to conquer death and chaos when in a storm, he walked over the waters… again the image is a dark world covered in chaotic waters.
So when we read in revelation, a text thst is highly symbolic, and highly metaphorical, it’s touching up on this.

it’s not literally explaining the new earth. It’s not giving us literal geographical and geological information. There was not literally four horsemen, there was not literally sea monsters rising up, Satan was not literally a dragon and so on. They are all symbolism for theological truths.

so when it says there is no sea in the restored heaven and earth, it’s not actually talking about real water but is referring to death and chaos. It’s saying the world is better. It’s peaceful. To force literal sea into the story not only makes no sense but it can only be done by completely avoiding contextual analysis.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

When we look at the context for the spirit moving above the water the only clear interpretation is hovering above like a bird floating on the wind. Shaking would make no sense here.

you said “shaking” would make no sense here. only for consideration
Hebrews 12:25-29 See that you refuse not him that speaks. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven: [26] Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. [27] And this word, Yet once more, signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. [28] Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: [29] For our God is a consuming fire.


Genesis 1:2-4 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. [4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

And the Spirit of God moved
Can “shake” apply…Same a “hovered” “moved upon” “come upon”? Consider all the times “shake” is used in reference to “to shake”
And the foundations are revealed…or to “shake” as “God said” =Spoke…and how things are moved out of their place which makes me think the movement of things from God spoke, the dividing of even that which can be shaken and is temporary, from that which can’t be shaken so that it remains in Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

maybe misunderstood but in Genesis when the Spirit of God hovers…shake (Imo) could apply because a moving of things happens: “and God divided the light from the darkness.”

divided the light from the darkness, the waters from dry land also in: let dry land appear and the waters to gather together in one place

shake could mean
“A moving (or removal) of things” from one place to another. Is this the same outcome as “hovered” or “moved”the Spirit of God, to be shaken out of place and moved, a setting in Order?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

you said “shaking” would make no sense here. only for consideration
Hebrews 12:25-29 See that you refuse not him that speaks. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven: [26] Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. [27] And this word, Yet once more, signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. [28] Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: [29] For our God is a consuming fire.


Genesis 1:2-4 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. [4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

And the Spirit of God moved
Can “shake” apply…Same a “hovered” “moved upon” “come upon”? Consider all the times “shake” is used in reference to “to shake”
And the foundations are revealed…or to “shake” as “God said” =Spoke…and how things are moved out of their place which makes me think the movement of things from God spoke, the dividing of even that which can be shaken and is temporary, from that which can’t be shaken so that it remains in Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

maybe misunderstood but in Genesis when the Spirit of God hovers…shake (Imo) could apply because a moving of things happens: “and God divided the light from the darkness.”

divided the light from the darkness, the waters from dry land also in: let dry land appear and the waters to gather together in one place

shake could mean
“A moving (or removal) of things” from one place to another. Is this the same outcome as “hovered” or “moved”the Spirit of God, to be shaken out of place and moved, a setting in Order?

yes considering now The Spirit of God
Hovered
Moved
Or “Shook”?
Personally I prefer The Spirit of God “Shook”
upon the face of the waters for the earth was without form, and void (of the Spirit of Christ), they have all together become unprofitable, (void) of understanding; full of bitterness and cursing …chaos…hostility to life.

strange how mankind searches for other planets suitable or not hostile towards life. Scientifically considering and seeking after what other plants can sustain life; having the right air to breathe, a water source, a food source, a not hostile atmosphere or life-force; where mankind may have a chance to “live” there because the environment is not hostile towards life.

without form, and void
None seeks after God
Chaos, hostility to life
No order
There is no fear of God before their eyes
And God Shook and Spoke
“Let there be Light”
“Hovered” is too fluttering (Imo)
“Moved” is too broad (Imo)
“Shook” over that which was “without form” and “void”, Shook upon “chaos and Hostility to life” for there was no fear of God before their eyes… “shook” (imo) describes better all the times one fell at His appearance, bowed, took a knee, subjected to a “departing from evil”…as in verses it is said even the earth is moved out of her place at His presence

 

[Skovand1075]

yes considering now The Spirit of God
Hovered
Moved
Or “Shook”?
Personally I prefer The Spirit of God “Shook”
upon the face of the waters for the earth was without form, and void (of the Spirit of Christ), they have all together become unprofitable, (void) of understanding; full of bitterness and cursing …chaos…hostility to life.

strange how mankind searches for other planets suitable or not hostile towards life. Scientifically considering and seeking after what other plants can sustain life; having the right air to breathe, a water source, a food source, a not hostile atmosphere or life-force; where mankind may have a chance to “live” there because the environment is not hostile towards life.

without form, and void
None seeks after God
Chaos, hostility to life
No order
There is no fear of God before their eyes
And God Shook and Spoke
“Let there be Light”
“Hovered” is too fluttering (Imo)
“Moved” is too broad (Imo)
“Shook” over that which was “without form” and “void”, Shook upon “chaos and Hostility to life” for there was no fear of God before their eyes… “shook” (imo) describes better all the times one fell at His appearance, bowed, took a knee, subjected to a “departing from evil”…as in verses it is said even the earth is moved out of her place at His presence

Ultimately all I can do is base my decision off of what best makes sense and it seems so did the majority of scholars who translated it. I don’t see any other way to interpret it that makes sense.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Ultimately all I can do is base my decision off of what best makes sense and it seems so did the majority of scholars who translated it. I don’t see any other way to interpret it that makes sense.

never said you have to agree
Only giving you a consideration of how “shake” may fit also. Ultimately it seems most important that He does Speak. Whether hovered, moved, or shook…in considering where Christ told them they had never heard His voice at any time, nor the voice of the prophets… I’m ok with being 99 percent wrong…if just once, even one percent, I have truly heard His Voice, at any time. Not my own voice twisting the word to suit myself or my own interpretation…but if just once it has been His voice that spoke and not my own. I don’t need a 100percent; just once of truly hearing His Voice speak and not my own. to me just once is better than having never heard His Voice at anytime..

 

[Webers_Home]

.
• Gen 1:20-21 . . And God said: Let the waters bring forth abundantly the
moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the
open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living
creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their
kind, and every winged fowl after his kind:

The Hebrew word translated "bring forth abundantly" is somewhat
ambiguous. It can speak of swarms and it can also speak of production. If
we choose production, then it would mean God constructed aqua life and
winged life from nothing more than water.

One of the essential elements for the construction of organic life is carbon.
Well; sea water contains that element, along with several others.

Distilled water contains little more than hydrogen and oxygen, whereas
untreated fresh water contains quite a few useful elements that it picks up
from interaction with soils and rocks; so either salty or fresh would've been
suitable.

* Life on Earth was made from the Earth so that all living things-- whether
on land, in water, or in the air --are biodegradable.
_

 

[BeyondET]

Or it was how the ancient Jewish people believed. Since for them the entire cosmos was water , a giant sea in darkness, when that water got separated into the waters above and the waters below, the waters above became clouds. They did not understand evaporation or the weather cycle like us. They believed a dome was built over their earth and that angels opened up doorways in the dome allowing water to fall in through the clouds. They believed all thst water was absorbed by the earth.

it‘a usually not beneficial to apply concordism to the text to develop theology though. Everything in the Bible was written so that ancient men, not us, would understand it. It was built into their culture. Not ours. We have to understand scripture through their culture and worldview, not filter it through our own. Once we understand what it meant to them, we can filter it through ours to see how it applies.

In ancient Mesopotamian culture humanity was often thought of as created out of
Violence with the purpose to be slaves to the god.

genesis 1 purpose was not science, it was built from a different theological position. It’s purpose was to say humankind was built out of peace, and was meant to be corulers, not slaves with god over the earth.

And alot that they thought isn't actually correct. Man thought the earth was flat once but its not correct.

 

[JunChosen]

Has anyone here ever considered that the Bible is a spiritual book and therefore must be interpreted as such? Then why do people read it like it's an ordinary book?

For example, words and terms in Genesis 1:1 like: "without form," "void," "darkness," "face of the deep," and "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters," don't these have any spiritual connotations? Food for thought.

Just sayin'

 

[ScottA]

What day do you think water was created on? Why was it not frozen before the sun was created? Why does it say no sea in the new earth.

I already know what I believe and I’ll post it after work. Just curious what do y’all believe. One clue is chaos.

First, one has to know what "water" refers to in the first two verses. Do you know or do you rather only "believe" (as you seem to have said)? What do you base your information on?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

"For in 6 days God created the earth and the heaven and all that is in them."

Which day?

If there was water there on the first day, it was created on the first day.

Much love!

Actually the scriptures say at Genesis 1:1-"the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Then Genesis 1:2 says, "Now the earth was formless and desolate, and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep, and God’s active forcec was moving about over the surface of the waters."

So the best I can get from that is that water was already present on earth when God started preparing the earth for life, at Genesis 1:2. When discussing Genesis 1:1 it shows that all the universe was created our solar system our Galaxy and all the other Galaxies also. We don't know how much time past when God did what he did at Genesis1:1 and God started preparing the earth for life at Genesis 1:2

 

[marks]

Actually the scriptures say at Genesis 1:1-"the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Then Genesis 1:2 says, "Now the earth was formless and desolate, and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep, and God’s active forcec was moving about over the surface of the waters."

So the best I can get from that is that water was already present on earth when God started preparing the earth for life, at Genesis 1:2. When discussing Genesis 1:1 it shows that all the universe was created our solar system our Galaxy and all the other Galaxies also. We don't know how much time past when God did what he did at Genesis1:1 and God started preparing the earth for life at Genesis 1:2

Remember,

Exodus 20:8-11 KJV
8) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It was all created in the 6 days of creation.

Much love!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Remember,

Exodus 20:8-11 KJV
8) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It was all created in the 6 days of creation.

Much love!

I disagree, The “day” of Genesis 2:4 as well as the “six days” of Exodus 20:11, comprising the whole creative period from when Jehovah God created light on the earth, does not include the period of time previous in which the earth was already existing and during which it was formless and waste, abiding in the darkness that covered the surface of its surging waters.

We may not forget that during this creative week God did create heavens. Those heavens are the ones described in the account of the second day in Genesis 1:6-8. It is in these heavens that Genesis 1 verse 20 says the flying creatures wing their way. It was in these heavens that the sun, moon and stars outside became visible on the fourth day. The earth was made or created within this creative period also in that it was made to appear above the surging waters on the third day. (Genesis 1:9, 10) These, therefore, are “the heavens and the earth” that are referred to at both Genesis 2:4 and Exodus 20:11.

 

[marks]

I disagree, The “day” of Genesis 2:4 as well as the “six days” of Exodus 20:11, comprising the whole creative period from when Jehovah God created light on the earth, does not include the period of time previous in which the earth was already existing and during which it was formless and waste, abiding in the darkness that covered the surface of its surging waters.

We may not forget that during this creative week God did create heavens. Those heavens are the ones described in the account of the second day in Genesis 1:6-8. It is in these heavens that Genesis 1 verse 20 says the flying creatures wing their way. It was in these heavens that the sun, moon and stars outside became visible on the fourth day. The earth was made or created within this creative period also in that it was made to appear above the surging waters on the third day. (Genesis 1:9, 10) These, therefore, are “the heavens and the earth” that are referred to at both Genesis 2:4 and Exodus 20:11.

As with all that is in Scripture, I simply take it like I find it.

My POV is expressed by the direct quotation of Scripture alone, in the standard way language is understood. I don't find any reason to see it any other way.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Has anyone here ever considered that the Bible is a spiritual book and therefore must be interpreted as such? Then why do people read it like it's an ordinary book?

I have. It still tells us the facts of the matter. It's not as though the Bible doesn't contain propositional truth.

Much love!